Machado do-over

[Dick Allen]

5 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

This is only true if Madrigal flops.

If he didn't flop and was a star, I'd rather have Moncada in RF than any of the free agents this year.

The White Sox need a lot of offense. This isn't 2005 anymore.

[Greg Hibbard]

1 hour ago, Dick Allen said:

If he didn't flop and was a star, I'd rather have Moncada in RF than any of the free agents this year.

The White Sox need a lot of offense. This isn't 2005 anymore.

Yes, but Machado really hasn't been that valuable offensively - his value has largely been generated this season, defensively. His offense this year hasn't really been that great.

I'm glad we missed out of Machado, in hindsight. I know we missed for the wrong reasons but I'm glad we did.

[Harry Chappas]

I'll take Cole/Stras/Baum and Madrigal and $100M  over Machado

 

Machado was a bad contract from day one but the White Sox need  to realize that, that is a part of the game.  Bad contracts are a part of the deal.  

[Dick Allen]

8 minutes ago, Greg Hibbard said:

Yes, but Machado really hasn't been that valuable offensively - his value has largely been generated this season, defensively. His offense this year hasn't really been that great.

I'm glad we missed out of Machado, in hindsight. I know we missed for the wrong reasons but I'm glad we did.

That is because he has been brutal at home. I think Guaranteed Rate would be a good place for him to hit. But I have thought that for just about everyone.,

[Greg Hibbard]

Just now, Dick Allen said:

That is because he has been brutal at home. I think Guaranteed Rate would be a good place for him to hit. But I have thought that for just about everyone.,

but what about his OPS+, which is only 107, and accounts for park factor?

[Dick Allen]

15 minutes ago, Greg Hibbard said:

but what about his OPS+, which is only 107, and accounts for park factor?

He's doing pretty well on the road. His home numbers are driving him down. He's doing a lot worse there than he should. I wish the Sox had him. It's hard to pick up a talent like that at that age for only money, something they should have plenty. This team still needs a lot to go right. Considering the teams  Rick Hahn has generally managed have never produced worse than the overall #11 pick, and with Sale, Eaton and Q to trade, you would think the depth would be a bit better. They should be at the point the 40 man could be difficult. But they still are loaded with guys who won't do jack and no one will remember they were even around 2 years from now. 

Edited September 19, 2019 by Dick Allen

[Greg Hibbard]

Just now, Dick Allen said:

He's doing pretty well on the road. His home numbers are driving him down. He's doing a lot worse there than he should. 

if he's doing a lot worse there than he should, it would seem as though he is underperforming his contract

[BackDoorBreach]

This is funny.  A team in the bottom 5 in HR's doing the mental gymnastics about Machado.  He's worth 3 bWAR in a down year and has 30 dingers.  That wouldn't have mattered this year, but for a team starved for power production going into the next few years that could have been a huge boost.  Not to mention Yo is probably an All-Star at 2b.

[Dick Allen]

3 minutes ago, Greg Hibbard said:

if he's doing a lot worse there than he should, it would seem as though he is underperforming his contract

 

There is no question he is not performing well enough at home.  But that doesn't mean the Sox dodged a bullet. 

[Greg Hibbard]

Just now, BackDoorBreach said:

This is funny.  A team in the bottom 5 in HR's doing the mental gymnastics about Machado.  He's worth 3 bWAR in a down year and has 30 dingers.  That wouldn't have mattered this year, but for a team starved for power production going into the next few years that could have been a huge boost.  Not to mention Yo is probably an All-Star at 2b.

Except that this is about the next ten years, and it seems with the addition of Robert alongside Moncada, Abreu (assuming he comes back), Jimenez, Anderson, and eventually, Andrew Vaughn will have enough power without $30 million dollars of contract eaten by a player who does not seem worth that deal per annum.

[BackDoorBreach]

5 minutes ago, Greg Hibbard said:

Except that this is about the next ten years, and it seems with the addition of Robert alongside Moncada, Abreu (assuming he comes back), Jimenez, Anderson, and eventually, Andrew Vaughn will have enough power without $30 million dollars of contract eaten by a player who does not seem worth that deal per annum.

Who also is still capable GG caliber defense, which we are also severly lacking.  If they don't sign Cole or Strasburg or pick up a big money bat with the money Machado didn't get in the next 2 off seasons it will always be a complete whiff and not some blessing.  

Also all of those players are on this team aside from Robert and Vaughn, and Vaughn is taking over for Abreu.  There is still a lack of power in that lineup for how teams are constructed currenttly.

Edited September 19, 2019 by BackDoorBreach

[Greg Hibbard]

1 minute ago, BackDoorBreach said:

Who also is still capable GG caliber defense, which we are also severly lacking.  If they don't sign Cole or Strasburg or pick up a big money bat with the money Machado didn't get in the next 2 off seasons it will always be a complete whiff and not some blessing.  

Well, we were told the money will be spent, so we'll see.

I'm surprised more people don't think Machado is having a really disappointing year.

If Machado put up a 107+ OPS for the Sox this board would have been all over that signing as being bad

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

2 hours ago, Dick Allen said:

Machado at 3B and Moncada at 2B or the OF seems a lot better choice than what they have. 

Moncada has been damn good at 3rd. No guarantee hed be good at 2nd or in RF. 

[Dick Allen]

13 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

Moncada has been damn good at 3rd. No guarantee hed be good at 2nd or in RF. 

Machado is better than him at 3B. If Machado was signed, Moncada most likely would have been at 2B this year, perhaps moving to accommodate Madrigal next year. I doubt they would move him again. But assuming Madrigal is really good,  I bet Yoan would be better as a RF than anyone they eventually sign.  

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

33 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

Machado is better than him at 3B. If Machado was signed, Moncada most likely would have been at 2B this year, perhaps moving to accommodate Madrigal next year. I doubt they would move him again. But assuming Madrigal is really good,  I bet Yoan would be better as a RF than anyone they eventually sign.  

Machado is great there, but the difference between the two is negligible over the next 9 years (assuming growth from Moncada and standard age regression from Machado).

The Sox would be better off spending 300 million on pitchers than a position player. We didn't know that last off season so the White Sox do not deserve credit for that, but speaking today? The White Sox got lucky and it turns out Tim and Yoan got way better, and Abreu had a really nice year with the bat. So with Madrigal in the fold, they simply did not need another infielder - especially for 20-25% of their payroll over the next 10 years. 

Manny showing that last year was the outlier, not the new norm, also makes it look better.

b****ing about not having Machado at this point is just b****ing to b****. Harper at least would fill the one positional need they need. Manny caused more changes and created more variables and looking back in hindsight, the Sox caught a break.

Edited September 19, 2019 by Look at Ray Ray Run

[Jack Parkman]

1 hour ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

Machado is great there, but the difference between the two is negligible over the next 9 years (assuming growth from Moncada and standard age regression from Machado).

The Sox would be better off spending 300 million on pitchers than a position player. We didn't know that last off season so the White Sox do not deserve credit for that, but speaking today? The White Sox got lucky and it turns out Tim and Yoan got way better, and Abreu had a really nice year with the bat. So with Madrigal in the fold, they simply did not need another infielder - especially for 20-25% of their payroll over the next 10 years. 

Manny showing that last year was the outlier, not the new norm, also makes it look better.

b****ing about not having Machado at this point is just b****ing to b****. Harper at least would fill the one positional need they need. Manny caused more changes and created more variables and looking back in hindsight, the Sox caught a break.

Don't lie to yourself: if Harper were having the same year in a Sox uniform we'd all be b****ing about how he's an overpaid bum. Harper and Machado are not and were never A-Rod and Manny Ramirez. They probably deserve 25M per year on an 8 year deal. Their deals were too long and for too much. It seems like the Sox were the only team involved that valued them properly.  Harper and Machado got paid based on one outlier of a year that each had. Otherwise, they're both very good players but neither are stars. 

Edited September 19, 2019 by Jack Parkman
Typos

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

14 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

Don't lie to yourself: if Harper weree having the same year in a Sox uniform we'd all be b****ing about how he's an overpaid bum. Harper and Machado are not and were never A-Rod and Manny Ramirez. They probably deserve 25M per year on an 8 year deal. Their deals were too long and for too much. It seems like the Sox were the only team involved that valued them properly.  Harper and Machado got paid baed on one outlier of a year that each had. Otherwise, they're both very good players but neither are stars. 

They're both certainly stars. They just may not be perennial mvp candidates.

[poppysox]

4 hours ago, Dick Allen said:

Machado at 3B and Moncada at 2B or the OF seems a lot better choice than what they have. 

Moncada and Madrigal playing their natural positions is a much better plan.  The 300 million much better used to get the two stud pitchers.

[Jack Parkman]

6 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

They're both certainly stars. They just may not be perennial mvp candidates.

That's what I meant. My definition of star/superstar is more exclusive than most. To me, you're not a star unless you're a perennial MVP/Cy Young candidate and you're not a superstar unless you're on a HOF trajectory. (meaning actually winning said awards) 

In my book, Machado and Harper fall just short of the star level, but they're very good players. 

Edited September 19, 2019 by Jack Parkman

[BackDoorBreach]

Harper has been worth his contract so far in his first year.

[poppysox]

32 minutes ago, BackDoorBreach said:

Harper has been worth his contract so far in his first year.

I didn't want him but he fit our need better than Machado.

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

3 hours ago, BackDoorBreach said:

This is funny.  A team in the bottom 5 in HR's doing the mental gymnastics about Machado.  He's worth 3 bWAR in a down year and has 30 dingers.  That wouldn't have mattered this year, but for a team starved for power production going into the next few years that could have been a huge boost.  Not to mention Yo is probably an All-Star at 2b.

Yoan sucked defensively at 2b but has been a stud at 3b this year. Why does everyone assume he would be more valuable at 2b?

[BackDoorBreach]

5 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

Yoan sucked defensively at 2b but has been a stud at 3b this year. Why does everyone assume he would be more valuable at 2b?

He also sucked offensively last year.  Why does everyone assume his defensive position reflects his offense?

He's more valuable at 2B because he has a 900 OPS, aren't many of those around. Then you fill 3B with another guy with 850-900 OPS and your infield mashes.  Madrigal could never dream of that.

Edited September 19, 2019 by BackDoorBreach

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

4 minutes ago, BackDoorBreach said:

He also sucked offensively last year.  Why does everyone assume his defensive position reflects his offense?

He's more valuable at 2B because he has a 900 OPS, aren't many of those around. Then you fill 3B with another guy with 850-900 OPS and your infield mashes.  Madrigal could never dream of that.

Even if Yoan posted a 900 OPS at 2b, if his defense still sucked as much as it did during his first 1.5 seasons, he wouldn’t be worth more than what he’s doing at 3b this season.

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

3 hours ago, Greg Hibbard said:

Yes, but Machado really hasn't been that valuable offensively - his value has largely been generated this season, defensively. His offense this year hasn't really been that great.

I'm glad we missed out of Machado, in hindsight. I know we missed for the wrong reasons but I'm glad we did.

This season, Machado has been Yolmer Sanchez with homers. Scary thought.