White Sox vs Twins 8/20/2019

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

4 minutes ago, southsideirish71 said:

Execute your pitches better.  Have a better plan of attack.  You don't need to knock people on their ass like its 1960 to effectively pitch.  

 

Yes you have to once in a while. Because even if you execute your pitches batters are not afraid of being brushed backed that gives them ownership of more of the plate. So even if you execute your pitches the batters have a better chance of hitting them. Besides expecting pitchers to just execute their pitches is just asinine. Not every one is Greg Maddux . C'mon now this isnt about it being the 60's this is common sense on how to pitch more effectively without always executing your pitches.

Edited August 21, 2019 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

[kitekrazy]

1 minute ago, Moan4Yoan said:

If we have to hear Hahn say that he was just excited to be at the table with Cole next offseason, I may go insane.  ?

He has to find a couple of other free agents to woo Cole.  Then failing to sign Cole, Ricky will give plenty of playing time to those free agents, and then if one of them is an interstate hitter, he will bat 4th. To cement that Collins, Robert, Madrigal, will be at Charlotte because there it no place for them.

[whitesoxbrad]

9 minutes ago, Moan4Yoan said:

Cole to the Sox probably makes more sense than any other potential move I can imagine.  They have the money and desperately need to improve their rotation.  But many of us don’t expect it to happen.  It’s disappointing but it is what it is.

There is ZERO chance they get him.

[elrockinMT]

Herrera and Santiago equals seven runs allowed in one inning 

[Moan4Yoan]

3 minutes ago, elrockinMT said:

Herrera and Santiago equals seven runs allowed in one inning 

The tandem of Lopez and Castillo and bad pitch decisions, as well as Abreu’s awful glove equals the other touchdown.

The Sox still lose with either pile of crap.

Edited August 21, 2019 by Moan4Yoan

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

1 minute ago, Moan4Yoan said:

I guess this is exactly the point.  If Jerry isn’t willing to do that, then the Sox aren’t serious about winning like those other teams.  I guess we will all know the answer soon enough this winter.

Jerry hasn’t shown a willingness to maintain an above average payroll for an extended period (ever) so unless that changes it’s kind of hard to put it all on the front office that they haven’t been able to achieve sustained success. And yes, I know the Indians have dominated the division for years with a relatively low payroll but they also haven’t won a title since 1948 and will be unable to sustain success if they let their payroll slip to bottom 5 again.

It’s no coincidence that 6 of the current playoff teams are also top 8 in payroll. This is typical. Usually, 6-8 playoff teams are top 10 in payroll. It’s not rocket science that a larger payroll allows a front office to hide more of their mistakes and add higher paid players to plug roster holes.

[tray]

Too many low change-up pitches and sinkers that were killed by upper-cut swings. I think Gio has to go high and hard pitch inside on the hands, and  if you hit one or two  of them, oh well. 

 

[Moan4Yoan]

26 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

Jerry hasn’t shown a willingness to maintain an above average payroll for an extended period (ever) so unless that changes it’s kind of hard to put it all on the front office that they haven’t been able to achieve sustained success. And yes, I know the Indians have dominated the division for years with a relatively low payroll but they also haven’t won a title since 1948 and will be unable to sustain success if they let their payroll slip to bottom 5 again.

It’s no coincidence that 6 of the current playoff teams are also top 8 in payroll. This is typical. Usually, 6-8 playoff teams are top 10 in payroll. It’s not rocket science that a larger payroll allows a front office to hide more of their mistakes and add higher paid players to plug roster holes.

Wasn’t the Sox payroll within the top 10 in the MLB from 2010 through 2013?

Edited August 21, 2019 by Moan4Yoan

[caulfield12]

2 hours ago, Moan4Yoan said:

Wasn’t the Sox payroll within the top 10 in the MLB from 2010 through 2013?

2006-2013

[caulfield12]

2 hours ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

Jerry hasn’t shown a willingness to maintain an above average payroll for an extended period (ever) so unless that changes it’s kind of hard to put it all on the front office that they haven’t been able to achieve sustained success. And yes, I know the Indians have dominated the division for years with a relatively low payroll but they also haven’t won a title since 1948 and will be unable to sustain success if they let their payroll slip to bottom 5 again.

It’s no coincidence that 6 of the current playoff teams are also top 8 in payroll. This is typical. Usually, 6-8 playoff teams are top 10 in payroll. It’s not rocket science that a larger payroll allows a front office to hide more of their mistakes and add higher paid players to plug roster holes.

This has not been the case at all for the AL Central.

The success of the Indians, Royals and Twins go against the very trend you're highlighting.

The White Sox had a Top 10 payroll in 2008, when they last made the playoffs, but they also ran Top 10 payrolls all the way through the 2013 season, where it was obvious they would need to either rebuild or "retool on the fly" with trades and free agents.

They chose Option 2, spending money in free agency from 2014-16 and bringing in the likes of Samardzija and Todd Frazier via trade...as well as Jose Abreu for the 2014 season.

The payroll didn't bottom out until the last 2-3 seasons.

 

Edited August 21, 2019 by caulfield12

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

4 hours ago, caulfield12 said:

This has not been the case at all for the AL Central.

The success of the Indians, Royals and Twins go against the very trend you're highlighting.

The White Sox had a Top 10 payroll in 2008, when they last made the playoffs, but they also ran Top 10 payrolls all the way through the 2013 season, where it was obvious they would need to either rebuild or "retool on the fly" with trades and free agents.

They chose Option 2, spending money in free agency from 2014-16 and bringing in the likes of Samardzija and Todd Frazier via trade...as well as Jose Abreu for the 2014 season.

The payroll didn't bottom out until the last 2-3 seasons.

 

They were not consistently in the top 10 from 2006 thru 2013. Two seasons they fell out of it. And the high payroll from 2006 thru 2008 was a byproduct of the 2005 World Series team. They actually had what many would consider sustained success (by ALC standards) from 2005 thru 2008. World Series title, two playoff teams (three under the current format), perennial contender.

Now back to my original point, you can’t pin all of this on Hahn and the front office when he’s worked with minuscule payrolls every year since taking the reign in 2013. If Jerry allows for a $160M+ payroll next year and beyond and they still can’t crack 3rd place in the division, then yes heads should roll. It’s extremely difficult to win a World Series with a bottom 10 payroll though. Has it been done since the 2003 Marlins?

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

Imagine what this team could add this winter with a $160M payroll next season. Cole, Strasburg, Chapman, Puig. Combine that with the minor league reinforcements coming up and that’s a vastly different looking team. I mean imagine a rotation of Cole, Strasburg, Giolito (as the #3!), Cease, Kopech/Lopez/Rodon and a bullpen with Colome/Bummer/Chapman at the back end. Pitching just went from a weakness to a strength. I realize they won’t do this but just pointing out how much of a difference an extra $70Mb in payroll makes...

[caulfield12]

37 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

They were not consistently in the top 10 from 2006 thru 2013. Two seasons they fell out of it. And the high payroll from 2006 thru 2008 was a byproduct of the 2005 World Series team. They actually had what many would consider sustained success (by ALC standards) from 2005 thru 2008. World Series title, two playoff teams (three under the current format), perennial contender.

Now back to my original point, you can’t pin all of this on Hahn and the front office when he’s worked with minuscule payrolls every year since taking the reign in 2013. If Jerry allows for a $160M+ payroll next year and beyond and they still can’t crack 3rd place in the division, then yes heads should roll. It’s extremely difficult to win a World Series with a bottom 10 payroll though. Has it been done since the 2003 Marlins?

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1UYsH7Yy0BawYXQX7Jpgz7F0qswXDyRbAPtRJXhdU0qQ/htmlview

When you’re spending at or even with the Cubs every season but 2009-10, much more is expected.

 

Nobody expected a World Series in 2017, 18 or 19.

But a competitive, .500ish and maybe even wild card competitor if everything goes right is quire fair to as for at this point for 2020. 

 

[SCCWS]

59 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

They were not consistently in the top 10 from 2006 thru 2013. Two seasons they fell out of it. And the high payroll from 2006 thru 2008 was a byproduct of the 2005 World Series team. They actually had what many would consider sustained success (by ALC standards) from 2005 thru 2008. World Series title, two playoff teams (three under the current format), perennial contender.

Now back to my original point, you can’t pin all of this on Hahn and the front office when he’s worked with minuscule payrolls every year since taking the reign in 2013. If Jerry allows for a $160M+ payroll next year and beyond and they still can’t crack 3rd place in the division, then yes heads should roll. It’s extremely difficult to win a World Series with a bottom 10 payroll though. Has it been done since the 2003 Marlins?

They are firmly 3rd in the division now.  Did you mean 3rd in WC race?

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

58 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1UYsH7Yy0BawYXQX7Jpgz7F0qswXDyRbAPtRJXhdU0qQ/htmlview

When you’re spending at or even with the Cubs every season but 2009-10, much more is expected.

 

Nobody expected a World Series in 2017, 18 or 19.

But a competitive, .500ish and maybe even wild card competitor if everything goes right is quire fair to as for at this point for 2020. 

 

All of which occurred before Hahn took over as GM. Where has payroll ranked the last 6 seasons? The rebuild won’t work without at least a league average payroll (~$125M). 

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

43 minutes ago, SCCWS said:

They are firmly 3rd in the division now.  Did you mean 3rd in WC race?

No. I’m saying if they can’t do better than 3rd place in the division after significantly increasing payroll then heads should roll. Jerry has to at least give this rebuild a chance to succeed by approving a league average payroll, at a minimum, as early as next season.

Edited August 21, 2019 by JUSTgottaBELIEVE

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

What’s the projected payroll next season even with extending Abreu? Like $60M? League average payroll is actually $136M, median is ~$125M. Even using the lower number, how much talent could this organization add via free agency with $65M this winter?