Renteria goes on pregame anti-analytics rant

[Jack Parkman]

1 hour ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

This is the most ridiculous comment.  The team has had a worse record in the last few years because THAT'S THE PLAN.  I was mixed on the idea of the rebuild but many on this board were pushing hard for it...and in retrospect I think it was right and smart and the actions the team has taken can all be explained within the concept of the goal of short term pain for long term greatness (See Astros, Cubs).  There was no "plan" in the Veeck years outside of...how do we pay the electric bill.  That was a dark, hopeless period...this is a dark period filled with an extraordinary amount of hope.  

There's hope.....until you hear comments like this from management. Then, all hope is lost. 

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

25 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

"Drake LaRoche is our real team leader!" and "I don't think you'll be wearing those jerseys now" are at least worthy entries on the same list. 

One idiot said that about Drake and he was beaten up in the clubhouse by his own teammate over it.

[Harold's Leg Lift]

Scrooge McDuck just ok'd a large budget increase for the analytics department. I imagine it would be very difficult to keep a manager around who ignores analytics.

[Jack Parkman]

Just now, Harold's Leg Lift said:

Scrooge McDuck just ok'd a large budget increase for the analytics department. I imagine it would be very difficult to keep a manager around who ignores analytics.

Link? 

[y2chae]

I don't have any faith that the FO will fire Ricky after this season.

[Balta1701]

Just now, y2chae said:

I don't have any faith that the FO will fire Ricky after this season.

They won't - because this type of statement fully represents their mindset. "Someone else is doing something different? Bleep off, this is how we've always done it and we earned the right to say this". 

[Eminor3rd]

Anyone who even utters “you have to have a balance” is so far behind, it may not even be the same game anymore. 

Successful franchises like the Dodgers and Yankees got all of this out of their system ten years ago. There is no “old school vs. new school” debate inside baseball anymore. All reliable info is good info and it all has to be used to make good decisions, period. Well-run organizations don’t have time for this — they get everyone on the same page, and if you can’t hang, you gotta go. 

The Yankees and Astros are revolutionizing the relationship between talent acquisition and player development, identifying and targeting players they know they can improve, evaluating and using feedback in real-time to ensure consistent progress up the chain. They understand their own strengths so well, they are poaching other teams’ underperforming talents and fixing them in a matter of weeks. 

The White Sox are still trying to get their manager to figure out what order to put the players in. 

[bmags]

Just now, Eminor3rd said:

Anyone who even utters “you have to have a balance” is so far behind, it may not even be the same game anymore. 

Successful franchises like the Dodgers and Yankees got all of this out of their system ten years ago. There is no “old school vs. new school” debate inside baseball anymore. All reliable info is good info and it all has to be used to make good decisions, period. Well-run organizations don’t have time for this — they get everyone on the same page, and if you can’t hang, you gotta go. 

The Yankees and Astros are revolutionizing the relationship between talent acquisition and player development, identifying and targeting players they know they can improve, evaluating and using feedback in real-time to ensure consistent progress up the chain. They understand their own strengths so well, they are poaching other teams’ underperforming talents and fixing them in a matter of weeks. 

The White Sox are still trying to get their manager to figure out what order to put the players in. 

do we have a gulp emoji

[Superstar Lamar]

Ricky is the Washington Generals of baseball coaches.  He is on his second job where the implicit, if not explicit job is to lose gracefully.  He is like one of those executives who is made CEO for a month as new ownership sells off parts of the corporation.  His only task is to hold the position and not do anything to embarrass the organization.  In exchange, he will make a great salary (with an extension) and have the title on his resume....at least I hope this is how the Sox view him.

[poppysox]

7 hours ago, NWINFan said:

What Balta1701 said and then some. The White Sox FO work overtime in circling their wagons and lashing out. In the meantime, their team has gone through a terrible decade and no one can predict when the team will start winning.

A note to Ricky: How about placing your best hitters higher in the order so they get more ABs and place your weaker hitters lower so they get less ABs?

That good hitters higher in the order is a really cool idea.

[Superstar Lamar]

but that's not really on Renteria

whoops, I thought I was adding a quote

Edited August 21, 2019 by Superstar Lamar

[Superstar Lamar]

15 minutes ago, Eminor3rd said:

Anyone who even utters “you have to have a balance” is so far behind, it may not even be the same game anymore. 

Successful franchises like the Dodgers and Yankees got all of this out of their system ten years ago. There is no “old school vs. new school” debate inside baseball anymore. All reliable info is good info and it all has to be used to make good decisions, period. Well-run organizations don’t have time for this — they get everyone on the same page, and if you can’t hang, you gotta go. 

The Yankees and Astros are revolutionizing the relationship between talent acquisition and player development, identifying and targeting players they know they can improve, evaluating and using feedback in real-time to ensure consistent progress up the chain. They understand their own strengths so well, they are poaching other teams’ underperforming talents and fixing them in a matter of weeks. 

The White Sox are still trying to get their manager to figure out what order to put the players in. 

that is not really on renteria

[Thad Bosley]

4 hours ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

This is the most ridiculous comment.  The team has had a worse record in the last few years because THAT'S THE PLAN.  I was mixed on the idea of the rebuild but many on this board were pushing hard for it...and in retrospect I think it was right and smart and the actions the team has taken can all be explained within the concept of the goal of short term pain for long term greatness (See Astros, Cubs).  There was no "plan" in the Veeck years outside of...how do we pay the electric bill.  That was a dark, hopeless period...this is a dark period filled with an extraordinary amount of hope.  

It's not ridiculous at all.  You keep trying to paint the five years of Veeck's second go-around as owner from '76-'80 as this "dark" and "laughingstock" window of time in the organization.  My point was it was no darker or more of a laughingstock than what we've experienced this decade. 

Take out the three rebuild years if you want and look at the four years preceding them that resulted in the need for the rebuild to begin with.  For a team that was "going for it" from 2013-2016, and with a core that included the likes of Sale, Abreu, Quintana, and Eaton, the team didn't even play .500 ball.  That's every bit as laughingstock as anything that happened from '76 thru '80. 

We lost quite a few ballgames between '13 and '16, which one should think would meet your definition of "dark".  At least in late '70s we had Nancy Faust playing the organ and Harry Caray singing "Take me out to the ballgame" every day/night at the ballpark, along with the many unique, themed days and nights Veeck had going on back then.  Don't recall any of that feeling particularly "dark".  

[bmags]

7 minutes ago, Superstar Lamar said:

that is not really on renteria

No it isn't, tbh it's not really much of a deal to me if they keep or fire renteria, because it's the front offices view of what a manager should be that is the issue.

[Balta1701]

5 minutes ago, bmags said:

No it isn't, tbh it's not really much of a deal to me if they keep or fire renteria, because it's the front offices view of what a manager should be that is the issue.

These comments are a window into that. If he actually wanted to talk about balance and the importance of combining feedback from his players with feedback and information from the front office that's one thing, but that's not what he said here. He alluded to balance and then ripped the idea of feedback from one side because he's in charge. He feels he should be immune from criticism, and when nothing happens to him, it'll just reinforce that entitlement.

[Dick Allen]

1 minute ago, Tony said:

I missed this until now. 

I skimmed the thread, but I haven't really seen any answer on how this came up, and why now. When I look at his quotes (which are incredibly alarming but also not surprising) I see someone who is at odds with upper managment. Especially these two lines. 

"If they don't like it, I don't give a shit" Who is they? The fans and players, or the front office? Now, Rick hired Ricky and if there is a problem with direction then that's on Rick for hiring a dolt. Maybe I'm reading into this too much, but I feel like Rick is taking shots at the front office, who want to take a more analytical approach, and he's not having it. 

The White Sox seem to have an organizational problem with the twitter world. Apparently they feel their track record should give them the benefit of the doubt. 

One thing though, I actually saw the video of these comments. They didn't seem as standoffish as they do when you read them. I mean his don't give a shit comment, everyone feels. Does anyone really care if another poster has issues with their post? 

I do think Ricky needs to take things into consideration. Some of his logic is crazy. Eloy isn't ready to hit 5th. The next day, he's hitting 5th. He wasn't ready 24 hours ago? He went with Alonso so long and so high in the line up, why? Jon Jay 6 games clean up? Matt Skole hit clean up, but Eloy wasn't ready to hit 5th? 

[Balta1701]

3 minutes ago, Tony said:

I missed this until now. 

I skimmed the thread, but I haven't really seen any answer on how this came up, and why now. When I look at his quotes (which are incredibly alarming but also not surprising) I see someone who is at odds with upper managment. Especially these two lines. 

"If they don't like it, I don't give a shit" Who is they? The fans and players, or the front office? Now, Rick hired Ricky and if there is a problem with direction then that's on Rick for hiring a dolt. Maybe I'm reading into this too much, but I feel like Rick is taking shots at the front office, who want to take a more analytical approach, and he's not having it. 

I fully read this as him talking to fans and media types who push for such things. I assumed this started with a question about either analytics or lineup constructin.

But if this is the manager taking a private disagreement between him and the front office out into the open and demanding that he's in control and the front office isn't...he should have been fired last night. You want to disagree with the front office about something go ahead. Figure out a way to work with them in a productive way. You want to go whine and swear to the media about it? With your .423  career won/loss mark? Go find another job.

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

Managers mean so little I don't really care, but Hahn is far too intelligent of a human being to actually allow this block head to run the team when it matters.

Ricky was good with young players and keeping people together - that has value to a young team who is losing A LOT. I understand the value of that when winning isn't the priority but if they don't shift gears when goal is to win, I'll be baffled. You can't have the background Hahn has and think that commentary isn't ludicrous.

[Quin]

10 minutes ago, Tony said:

I just read The Athletic article, where Fegan 100% asked these questions in regards to the fans/media, not the Front Office. So that sort of answers that. 

 

Whatever. None of this was surprising. Just depressing. 

God, in a normal job this would be where you tell Ricky that coupled with his performance, he will not be returning at the end of the year.

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

8 minutes ago, Tony said:

I just read The Athletic article, where Fegan 100% asked these questions in regards to the fans/media, not the Front Office. So that sort of answers that. 

 

Whatever. None of this was surprising. Just depressing. 

The Sox arent going to throw ricky under the bus. I do think Hahn had enough with the Anderson 7th garbage and did interject which might have heightened Renterias response to this.

Ricky's logic is circular. He says how can you use data if you dont give a player a chance to create new data. That's so uneducated and archaic idk what to say. 

If the player shows improvement and changes his data expected outcomes, then you make the change. You dont make decisions with a player who had never statistically supported the decision under the basis that he might support it one day. That's outlandish.

Renteria is an over bunting block head.

[Balta1701]

2 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

Managers mean so little I don't really care, but Hahn is far too intelligent of a human being to actually allow this block head to run the team when it matters.

Ricky was good with young players and keeping people together - that has value to a young team who is losing A LOT. I understand the value of that when winning isn't the priority but if they don't shift gears when goal is to win, I'll be baffled. You can't have the background Hahn has and think that commentary isn't ludicrous.

I seriously think you're giving this front office way too much credit. That said, we'll see. You've got what, 2 offseasons where he'd need to be replaced for you to be right, otherwise RH would clearly be endorsing "This block head". 

[mqr]

2 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

I seriously think you're giving this front office way too much credit. That said, we'll see. You've got what, 2 offseasons where he'd need to be replaced for you to be right, otherwise RH would clearly be endorsing "This block head". 

Well see how it goes, but they've made such an effort to add analytically minded people throughout the minors recently that I find it hard to believe this flies. 

[bmags]

5 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

The Sox arent going to throw ricky under the bus. I do think Hahn had enough with the Anderson 7th garbage and did interject which might have heightened Renterias response to this.

Ricky's logic is circular. He says how can you use data if you dont give a player a chance to create new data. That's so uneducated and archaic idk what to say. 

If the player shows improvement and changes his data expected outcomes, then you make the change. You dont make decisions with a player who had never statistically supported the decision under the basis that he might support it one day. That's outlandish.

Renteria is an over bunting block head.

While I think it's fair to say the leadoff and 2nd position in the lineup do have alternative responsibilities that players take seriously and change for, Renteria seems to believe that each position in the lineup has a unique, codified feeling to it that he needs to give players experience in. 

He thinks like, Matt Skole may really be a different player as a 5 hole hitter than a 8 hole hitter, and NO WAY is he a 6 hole hitter!

[Moan4Yoan]

20 minutes ago, Tony said:

I just read The Athletic article, where Fegan 100% asked these questions in regards to the fans/media, not the Front Office. So that sort of answers that. 

 

Whatever. None of this was surprising. Just depressing. 

No surprise that it wasn’t a local beat guy.  They are gutless chumps and worry more about their relationship with the team and managers than asking the tough questions.  Great questions by Fegan.

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

7 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

I seriously think you're giving this front office way too much credit. That said, we'll see. You've got what, 2 offseasons where he'd need to be replaced for you to be right, otherwise RH would clearly be endorsing "This block head". 

I'm not giving them too much credit, I'm just saying knowing Hahn's background he has to think that commentary was absurd. He may not have said it out loud but it's impossible for him to think any other way; unless Jerry is a brainwashing gypsy.