Reinsdorf assures Ron that Abreu will always be a White Sox

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

1 minute ago, Dick Allen said:

Abreu is 11th in the league, which pencils out between great and excellent. But he sucks, just ask chitownsportsfan. 

Well he's not the main culprit ,we all know who is. The guy who mocks RBI's  as a useful stat to poster Thad Bosley. So I bring up this clutch  stat which for some reason an old guy like me can find but the sabre guys can't and you say Abreu is 11th using it so I'm sure R883 will now disparage that particular sabre stat or just ignore it.

[Dick Allen]

9 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

2004  ? I found something on it from 1977. And you're the Saber guy and I'm just a guy trying to play catch up without abandoning the old way since most of TV still uses traditional stats they still serve a function for the non mathematicians in most of us.

To think everyone will perform the same whether the situation is stressful or not, is ludicrous, whether it's baseball, or being an accountant or lawyer or cutting hair. Some people fold, some rise to the occassion when the chips are on the table. The object is to score runs. Jose Abreu has produced a lot of runs for the White Sox with very little help, it's hard to understand how some can't understand that. 

Edited August 26, 2019 by Dick Allen

[Chicago White Sox]

12 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

To think everyone will perform the same whether the situation is stressful or not, is ludicrous, whether it's baseball, or being an accountant or lawyer or cutting hair. Some people fold, some rise to the occassion when the chips are on the table. The object is to score runs. Jose Abreu has produced a lot of runs for the White Sox with very little help, it's hard to understand how some can't understand that. 

Yup, and no doubt it is hard to measure due to small sample sizes, but common sense dictates people react differently to stress.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

20 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

To think everyone will perform the same whether the situation is stressful or not, is ludicrous, whether it's baseball, or being an accountant or lawyer or cutting hair. Some people fold, some rise to the occassion when the chips are on the table. The object is to score runs. Jose Abreu has produced a lot of runs for the White Sox with very little help, it's hard to understand how some can't understand that. 

 

7 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Yup, and no doubt it is hard to measure due to small sample sizes, but common sense dictates people react differently to stress.

I have no qualms with the sabremetric community. As I said before I think they are very useful and interesting . My problem is with those who blindly use them because it is the more modern way to approach things by those who post often here and use them without fully understanding them or even keeping up with the latest information. Just by being an avid baseball fan I know about the clutch stat that I brought up but only one poster said it was probably WPA and others didn't know what I was talking about. Now I know not a lot of guys have read that post that I mentioned it but if you are going to suggest that studies have shown there is no such things as clutch then you better bring your A game to support it.

[Quin]

26 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

To think everyone will perform the same whether the situation is stressful or not, is ludicrous, whether it's baseball, or being an accountant or lawyer or cutting hair. Some people fold, some rise to the occassion when the chips are on the table. The object is to score runs. Jose Abreu has produced a lot of runs for the White Sox with very little help, it's hard to understand how some can't understand that. 

I kinda want to see how Abreu performs in a lineup filled with Madrigal, Robert, Eloy, Vaughn, Collins, Moncada and Anderson.

[Jack Parkman]

1 minute ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

 

I have no qualms with the sabremetric community. As I said before I think they are very useful and interesting . My problem is with those who blindly use them because it is the more modern way to approach things by those who post often here and use them without fully understanding them or even keeping up with the latest information. Just by being an avid baseball fan I know about the clutch stat that I brought up but only one poster said it was probably WPA and others didn't know what I was talking about. Now I know not a lot of guys have read that post that I mentioned it but if you are going to suggest that studies have shown there is no such things as clutch then you better bring your A game to support it.

I agree with the clutch=absence of choke theory. 

[Dick Allen]

15 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Yup, and no doubt it is hard to measure due to small sample sizes, but common sense dictates people react differently to stress.

And I get where mathmatically it would be very hard to measure due to sample size, and like I mentioned before the randomness of the gaem where sometimes really good ABs have far worse results than bad ones. But it seems to be the industry standard, if it can't be measured, it doesn't exist, and common sense and everyday life makes you know it exists. 

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

4 minutes ago, Quin said:

I kinda want to see how Abreu performs in a lineup filled with Madrigal, Robert, Eloy, Vaughn, Collins, Moncada and Anderson.

He'll probably still be around for all of those players except Vaughn unless something totally unexpected happens.

[Jose Abreu]

Just now, Dick Allen said:

And I get where mathmatically it would be very hard to measure due to sample size, and like I mentioned before the randomness of the gaem where sometimes really good ABs have far worse results than bad ones. But it seems to be the industry standard, if it can't be measured, it doesn't exist, and common sense and everyday life makes you know it exists. 

It exists, but I also think that it's far less of a factor than the casual fan would think. As in, some players can be very slightly better or very slightly worse in "clutch" situations, but you won't find a good hitter consistently crater or a AAAA guy become an all-star in such spots 

[chitownsportsfan]

2 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

And I get where mathmatically it would be very hard to measure due to sample size, and like I mentioned before the randomness of the gaem where sometimes really good ABs have far worse results than bad ones. But it seems to be the industry standard, if it can't be measured, it doesn't exist, and common sense and everyday life makes you know it exists. 

If you can't measure something then why would you care about it?  How would you even know it when you see it?

[daggins]

Here's the blurb from Fangraphs:

"Clutch does a good job of describing the past, but it does very little towards predicting the future. Simply because one player was clutch at one point does not mean they will continue to perform well in high-leverage situations (and vice versa). Very few players have the ability to be consistently clutch over the course of their careers, and choking in one season does not beget the same in the future."

basically, its real, but not terribly useful.

[Dick Allen]

3 minutes ago, chitownsportsfan said:

If you can't measure something then why would you care about it?  How would you even know it when you see it?

Because I know it exists. It exists at my current job, it existed when I played baseball, it existed when I had to testify at a trial. How that is measured in a stat, I do not know. 

[chitownsportsfan]

1 minute ago, Dick Allen said:

Because I know it exists. It exists at my current job, it existed when I played baseball, it existed when I had to testify at a trial. How that is measured in a stat, I do not know. 

Sounds like Religion.

[Jerksticks]

1 minute ago, chitownsportsfan said:

Sounds like Religion.

Reminds me when Louis CK talked about atheists not having all the data, “Well wait, did you guys check for God behind the toaster yet?”

i don’t know why that’s so funny to me ?

[Dick Allen]

5 minutes ago, chitownsportsfan said:

Sounds like Religion.

When you go out to lunch and there is a line out the door, do the people working there perform as well as when there is one or two people there? Some probably do, and might even kick it up a notch, others become overwhelmed. 

In my job, there are very busy times. Some people step up, some check out. 

Edited August 26, 2019 by Dick Allen

[Bob Sacamano]

1 minute ago, Dick Allen said:

When you go out to lunch and there is a line out the door, do the people working there perform as well as when there is one or two people there? Some probably do, and might even kick it up a notch, others become overwhelmed. 

Yeah, there's the whole mental side of hitting, human element to the game in certain situations.

[TheFutureIsNear]

Considering the fact that the Sox haven’t sniffed the playoffs or played a meaningful game since Jose has been here...I’m going to say this is a stupid argument. Wake me up when Jose actually steps to bat in “clutch” situation. 

[turnin' two]

44 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

I agree with the clutch=absence of choke theory. 

I have never gotten this line of thinking.  If pressure can cause one to fail, why is it ridiculous to think that it can cause others to focus a bit more?

Everything has an equal and opposite reaction right?

 

 

[Quin]

1 hour ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

He'll probably still be around for all of those players except Vaughn unless something totally unexpected happens.

If he gets even a two year deal, he'll ideally be in a lineup with Vaughn.

[turnin' two]

1 hour ago, chitownsportsfan said:

If you can't measure something then why would you care about it?  How would you even know it when you see it?

Hmmm, does nobody love you?

How do you measure love?  Hate?  Fear?  Rage? Joy? Anxiety?

People care about those things.  Those things all have tangible impacts on the way people perceive the world, and the way they behave.

You can't always measure what is going on in someone's head.  That is why you can't measure clutch to a degree.

[caulfield12]

Joe Crede and Juan Uribe agree wholeheartedly...those guys consistently driving in runners from third and less than 2 outs were just some random lucky dudes.

Edited August 26, 2019 by caulfield12

[Thad Bosley]

4 hours ago, ron883 said:

Wow, RBIs. Do you also use a slide rule when doing math instead of a calculator? Bloodlet when you are sick instead of antibiotics? 

I believe your question was what has Jose done that has been great.  The answer is simple:  he's driven in over 100 runs five times in his career, which places him third in all time White Sox history behind a Hall of Famer who did it ten times and a former All Star who did it six times. 

Driving in over 100 runs in the Major Leagues is a great feat.  Not saying it's the end all, be all for gauging how good a player is, but to drive in more than 100 runs as many times as Jose has is, indeed, a great achievement on his part.   

[greg775]

5 hours ago, ron883 said:

Wow, RBIs. Do you also use a slide rule when doing math instead of a calculator? Bloodlet when you are sick instead of antibiotics? 

It's just wrong to deny RBIs mean SOMETHING. Only one player in the AL has more runs knocked in than Jose. Why not praise the man? Sox fans are weird sometimes. You have a precious guy like Abreu and it's always some people looking for his warts. 100 RBIs. Good job, Jose.

Somebody should start a congratulations thread for Jose. I won't do it cause it will look like I'm trying to stir things up.

Edited August 26, 2019 by greg775

[hogan873]

12 minutes ago, greg775 said:

It's just wrong to deny RBIs mean SOMETHING. Only one player in the AL has more runs knocked in than Jose. Why not praise the man? Sox fans are weird sometimes. You have a precious guy like Abreu and it's always some people looking for his warts. 100 RBIs. Good job, Jose.

Somebody should start a congratulations thread for Jose. I won't do it cause it will look like I'm trying to stir things up.

Scoring more runs that the opponent wins games.  Runs occur, typically, when one batter drives in runners and/or himself.  Jose has driven in 100 runs this year, and 72 of those runs were other players.  Considering the revolving door of #2 hitters (I'll at least acknowledge that Leury as the lead-off has been consistent) and the lack of OBP by the bottom of the lineup, Jose has been effective in driving in runs.  He's #2 in RBIs in the league and 6th in the majors.  That's pretty good in my book.

He's never been a great first baseman, and he's not getting any better.  His walks are way down, and that's taking a toll on his OBP.  He's not the same hitter OVERALL as he was.  But he's till a run producer and a threat to hit the ball out of the ballpark at any time.

For some reason, some fans love to shit on their own.  Honestly, though, the population of Abreu haters on this board is probably as low as the Abreu worshipers.  I think the majority of us like him and wouldn't mind seeing him around for a couple more years at $12-$14 million a year, especially with him taking on more of a DH role.  He certainly still has value, and his value as a leader and mentor cannot be undersold.

[poppysox]

47 minutes ago, hogan873 said:

Scoring more runs that the opponent wins games.  Runs occur, typically, when one batter drives in runners and/or himself.  Jose has driven in 100 runs this year, and 72 of those runs were other players.  Considering the revolving door of #2 hitters (I'll at least acknowledge that Leury as the lead-off has been consistent) and the lack of OBP by the bottom of the lineup, Jose has been effective in driving in runs.  He's #2 in RBIs in the league and 6th in the majors.  That's pretty good in my book.

He's never been a great first baseman, and he's not getting any better.  His walks are way down, and that's taking a toll on his OBP.  He's not the same hitter OVERALL as he was.  But he's till a run producer and a threat to hit the ball out of the ballpark at any time.

For some reason, some fans love to shit on their own.  Honestly, though, the population of Abreu haters on this board is probably as low as the Abreu worshipers.  I think the majority of us like him and wouldn't mind seeing him around for a couple more years at $12-$14 million a year, especially with him taking on more of a DH role.  He certainly still has value, and his value as a leader and mentor cannot be undersold.

When we actually have a better first baseman than Jose he will become the DH.  When we have both a better first baseman and a better DH than Jose we don't need him anymore.  We're not there yet.  Currently Jose is an all star first baseman.  For now lets worry about right field and DH.