Moan4Yoan Posted August 22, 2019 Share Posted August 22, 2019 32 minutes ago, vilehoopster said: Agreed, if these guys are so easy to find, can we get one in right field for the games this weekend. Yes, because Passan was talking about right fielders, not first basemen / DH types. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted August 22, 2019 Share Posted August 22, 2019 10 hours ago, vilehoopster said: Right now, Abreu has two more home runs than Machado, 25 more RBIs and a better OPS than Machado. I don't begin to get it. No idea what Machado has to do with Abreu. Manny was 26 years old last offseason, while Abreu will be entering his age 33 season. One plays above well average defense at a position of skill while the other is a DH who happens to play a terrible 1B. Citing only their offensive stats (without accounting for the differences in home parks no less) and trying to rationalize any argument is just plain dumb. I love Jose and would love to see him back, but rewarding him with more than a two year deal at a reasonable price is straight-up emotional decision-making and it would likely reduce our ability to build a winner. Loyalty should be rewarded to some extent, but that does not mean we should hand him a starting role indefinitely or overpay him for past production. Extending Jose beyond his age 34 season at this point in time would be absolute insanity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted August 22, 2019 Share Posted August 22, 2019 9 hours ago, vilehoopster said: And who would that replacement be? Do Robert or Mandrigal play 1st base? I didn't know that. Is it A. J. Reed in AAA? Is it Sheets in AA with his .261 average and his .763 OPS? No wait, it's Vaughn. He was the best batter in college ball last year (I hear that quote over and over). He is dominating Single A pitching to the toon of batting .250 with a OPS of .765. Is he gonna be in the majors next year? . . . nope. Or the year after that . . . nope. Probably by 2022, but not a sure thing. And by then Abreu, as history strongly indicates, will have 60 more career home runs and about 200 more career RBIs. Pay the man what he has earned and deserves. Do some research man. Sheets’ OPS ranks 15th in the entire league and he’s amongst the best hitters since mid May. Vaughn was 38% above average in Low A and is currently 22% above average in High A. This is the kid’s draft year and he’s already displaying signs of being an elite hitter, such as a 14% BB rate and 12% K rate for W-S. The BABIP will go up and normalize with time and the power will be in full force next season. I’d wager large some sums of money that Vaughn is pushing for a major league spot by the end of next season. He’s completely outperformed Madrigal in his draft season and look how quickly Nick has advanced this year (should be in the majors already). You are once again being emotional and thinking with dick and not your brain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted August 22, 2019 Share Posted August 22, 2019 7 hours ago, Thad Bosley said: Yet another terrific post. My compliments. ? Why is this a terrific post? You actually want to overpay Jose and risk locking in below average production at some point in time? It’s hard to take your endless criticisms of Jerry seriously when you’re advocating unwavering loyalty here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted August 22, 2019 Share Posted August 22, 2019 5 hours ago, greg775 said: OK then we agree cause Passan says he should be paid just what Vile and I said he should be paid. I am Vile's mini me. ... One shot on Passan by me: There are a ton of guys who can hit 30 HR and get on base 32 percent of the time? The Sox haven't found too many of those guys thru history. You’re missing the point. A .320 OBP is not good, which suggests Abreu is a power or nothing hitter right now and those guys have limited value. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCCWS Posted August 22, 2019 Share Posted August 22, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, Chicago White Sox said: No idea what Machado has to do with Abreu. Manny was 26 years old last offseason, while Abreu will be entering his age 33 season. One plays above well average defense at a position of skill while the other is a DH who happens to play a terrible 1B. Citing only their offensive stats (without accounting for the differences in home parks no less) and trying to rationalize any argument is just plain dumb. I love Jose and would love to see him back, but rewarding him with more than a two year deal at a reasonable price is straight-up emotional decision-making and it would likely reduce our ability to build a winner. Loyalty should be rewarded to some extent, but that does not mean we should hand him a starting role indefinitely or overpay him for past production. Extending Jose beyond his age 34 season at this point in time would be absolute insanity. I agree but in fairness Abreu has hit 16 of his 28 HR on the road. Edited August 22, 2019 by SCCWS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poppysox Posted August 22, 2019 Share Posted August 22, 2019 The oft repeated theme that Jose is a butcher in the field is overused IMO. Most players have a strongest and weakest tool. The GG fielder who can't hit...the speed merchant who can't steal 1st base... the good hitter who clogs the bases. I think he does an adequate job and is actually good at digging balls out of the dirt. He certainly wins more games with his bat than he cost us with his glove. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted August 22, 2019 Share Posted August 22, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, Chicago White Sox said: You’re missing the point. A .320 OBP is not good, which suggests Abreu is a power or nothing hitter right now and those guys have limited value. It's not very good, but it's 3rd on the White Sox. They are also 13th out of 15 in Home Runs in the AL. Very few teams win these days without hitting homers by the truckload. Jose will sign a short term deal for not a lot of money. The Sox have several other problems to fix before the apparent Jose Abreu "problem". Edited August 22, 2019 by Dick Allen 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jose Abreu Posted August 22, 2019 Share Posted August 22, 2019 18 minutes ago, Dick Allen said: It's not very good, but it's 3rd on the White Sox. They are also 13th out of 15 in Home Runs in the AL. Very few teams win these days without hitting homers by the truckload. Jose will sign a short term deal for not a lot of money. The Sox have several other problems to fix before the apparent Jose Abreu "problem". That more people complain about Abreu than the actual garbage on this roster (Sanchez/Engel/Castillo/Detwiler/Osich/Santiago etc.) has always been amusing to me 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Parkman Posted August 22, 2019 Share Posted August 22, 2019 25 minutes ago, Jose Abreu said: That more people complain about Abreu than the actual garbage on this roster (Sanchez/Engel/Castillo/Detwiler/Osich/Santiago etc.) has always been amusing to me People complain about Abreu because it is obvious to everyone that those guys are garbage, and besides the point, they're roster filler until guys return from injury or get called up. Abreu isn't necessarily garbage, but he isn't good either. He's barely above replacement level. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ron883 Posted August 22, 2019 Share Posted August 22, 2019 What bothers me is this kills all leverage. So what, were going to match or come close to all other offers? This is a historically frugal owner. We can't afford to overpay am aging slugger. Hahn needs to be extremely smart in his spending given our limitations. 15m down the hatch 2 or 3 years from now will hurt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyyle23 Posted August 22, 2019 Share Posted August 22, 2019 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ron883 Posted August 22, 2019 Share Posted August 22, 2019 31 minutes ago, Kyyle23 said: Smh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mqr Posted August 22, 2019 Share Posted August 22, 2019 1 hour ago, Jose Abreu said: That more people complain about Abreu than the actual garbage on this roster (Sanchez/Engel/Castillo/Detwiler/Osich/Santiago etc.) has always been amusing to me Those guys aren't worth 1 second of discussion. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Sacamano Posted August 22, 2019 Share Posted August 22, 2019 2 hours ago, ron883 said: What bothers me is this kills all leverage. So what, were going to match or come close to all other offers? This is a historically frugal owner. We can't afford to overpay am aging slugger. Hahn needs to be extremely smart in his spending given our limitations. 15m down the hatch 2 or 3 years from now will hurt. The player who says "I want to play here the rest of my career. If they don't resign me, I'll resign myself" (or something along those lines) hasn't killed his leverage? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted August 22, 2019 Share Posted August 22, 2019 2 hours ago, Jack Parkman said: People complain about Abreu because it is obvious to everyone that those guys are garbage, and besides the point, they're roster filler until guys return from injury or get called up. Abreu isn't necessarily garbage, but he isn't good either. He's barely above replacement level. Then how come the Sox only have 3 players with a better OBP, no players with more home runs, and no players with more doubles? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thad Bosley Posted August 22, 2019 Share Posted August 22, 2019 4 hours ago, Chicago White Sox said: Why is this a terrific post? You actually want to overpay Jose and risk locking in below average production at some point in time? It’s hard to take your endless criticisms of Jerry seriously when you’re advocating unwavering loyalty here. It was a terrific post, in my opinion, because I thought the poster did a nice job of putting into context what Abreu has meant to the organization, and then simply advocated the team not nickle and dime someone of his caliber on the next contract with the guy. I believe the poster suggested a three year, $36M contract, which I don't believe is overpaying him, and even if it was, not by enough for anyone to get their knickers in a bunch over. I don't believe this qualifies as me supporting "unwavering loyalty" to the guy, either. You have to admit, that might have been a teensy weensy hyperbolic on your end to suggest as much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thad Bosley Posted August 22, 2019 Share Posted August 22, 2019 2 hours ago, ron883 said: What bothers me is this kills all leverage. So what, were going to match or come close to all other offers? This is a historically frugal owner. We can't afford to overpay am aging slugger. Hahn needs to be extremely smart in his spending given our limitations. 15m down the hatch 2 or 3 years from now will hurt. LOL - "leverage", "overpay", "limitations", "15M down the hatch...will hurt" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ron883 Posted August 22, 2019 Share Posted August 22, 2019 12 minutes ago, Thad Bosley said: It was a terrific post, in my opinion, because I thought the poster did a nice job of putting into context what Abreu has meant to the organization, and then simply advocated the team not nickle and dime someone of his caliber on the next contract with the guy. I believe the poster suggested a three year, $36M contract, which I don't believe is overpaying him, and even if it was, not by enough for anyone to get their knickers in a bunch over. I don't believe this qualifies as me supporting "unwavering loyalty" to the guy, either. You have to admit, that might have been a teensy weensy hyperbolic on your end to suggest as much. What exactly has he done that is so great? He's had some productive years as a 1st basemen. Ya know, Alex Rios had some productive years in our OF. Why not guarantee Rios a coaching job while we are at it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mqr Posted August 22, 2019 Share Posted August 22, 2019 18 minutes ago, Dick Allen said: Then how come the Sox only have 3 players with a better OBP, no players with more home runs, and no players with more doubles? Idk if you've noticed this, but the White Sox are not a good baseball team. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted August 22, 2019 Share Posted August 22, 2019 3 hours ago, Dick Allen said: It's not very good, but it's 3rd on the White Sox. They are also 13th out of 15 in Home Runs in the AL. Very few teams win these days without hitting homers by the truckload. Jose will sign a short term deal for not a lot of money. The Sox have several other problems to fix before the apparent Jose Abreu "problem". And I want to bring him back on a short-term deal, just explaining to Greg that he’s not a stud simply because of 30 HR’s & 100 RBI’s. He has flaws that bring down his value to some extent, which was Passan’s point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Look at Ray Ray Run Posted August 22, 2019 Share Posted August 22, 2019 (edited) Hopefully when he gets more support he'll be more willing to take a walk. His walk rates have taken a step backwards and maybe that can be attributed to his lack of support around him. Ftr, while I am obviously pro-analytics over traditional... that said, sabermatricians really do underrate and value such things as cultural assimilation for foreign players. There is value to being a leader to latin/Cuban teammates entering a new environment and culture. I can't quantify it which typically means you shouldnt account for it, but it exists and there is value there and he certainly provides a lot of it regardless of what one believes. The instillation of proper work ethic, professionalism and expectations are important in young players. Edited August 22, 2019 by Look at Ray Ray Run 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted August 22, 2019 Share Posted August 22, 2019 3 hours ago, Jose Abreu said: That more people complain about Abreu than the actual garbage on this roster (Sanchez/Engel/Castillo/Detwiler/Osich/Santiago etc.) has always been amusing to me How was I complaining about Abreu? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jose Abreu Posted August 22, 2019 Share Posted August 22, 2019 6 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said: How was I complaining about Abreu? Wasn't about you, I was just responding to DA's last sentence about how this is such a "problem". My bad, I get why you would think I was talking about you based on how I quoted him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chitownsportsfan Posted August 22, 2019 Share Posted August 22, 2019 33 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said: Hopefully when he gets more support he'll be more willing to take a walk. His walk rates have taken a step backwards and maybe that can be attributed to his lack of support around him. Ftr, while I am obviously pro-analytics over traditional... that said, sabermatricians really do underrate and value such things as cultural assimilation for foreign players. There is value to being a leader to latin/Cuban teammates entering a new environment and culture. I can't quantify it which typically means you shouldnt account for it, but it exists and there is value there and he certainly provides a lot of it regardless of what one believes. The instillation of proper work ethic, professionalism and expectations are important in young players. How about we keep Abreu and ditch the "latin whisperer" Rickie. Sounds like a fair deal. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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