2020 RF options

[Sarava]

1 hour ago, bighurt574 said:

I like Castellanos but he's playing himself out of our price range right now.

If the Sox signed Castellanos to play RF, they'd have 3 positions locked up with one of the worst defenders in baseball (SS, RF and LF).

As crazy as it sounds, that's why I suggested Tim Anderson. Kill two birds with one stone. He's very athletic and has a strong arm, and probably would be a good right fielder. And then hopefully you can upgrade the defense at SS.

[Balta1701]

2 minutes ago, Sarava said:

If the Sox signed Castellanos to play RF, they'd have 3 positions locked up with one of the worst defenders in baseball (SS, RF and LF).

As crazy as it sounds, that's why I suggested Tim Anderson. Kill two birds with one stone. He's very athletic and has a strong arm, and probably would be a good right fielder. And then hopefully you can upgrade the defense at SS.

Ok so how? Jose Iglesias? Didi Gregorius? Jordy Mercer? I guess Gregorius is an option, the others I guess are defensive upgrades but?

[Sarava]

1 minute ago, Balta1701 said:

Ok so how? Jose Iglesias? Didi Gregorius? Jordy Mercer? I guess Gregorius is an option, the others I guess are defensive upgrades but?

Maybe look in to trade options, and I think they might need to do that even if they just try to fill RF conventionally. Do they want to consider Nick Madigral at short? I know they initially said he would play both positions.

The 'yeah right' part of me says sign Anthony Rendon, move Moncada back to 2nd and Madigral plays short. But I'll awake from that dream heh.  But there's a lot of ways to skin the cat.

[Balta1701]

3 minutes ago, Sarava said:

Maybe look in to trade options, and I think they might need to do that even if they just try to fill RF conventionally. Do they want to consider Nick Madigral at short? I know they initially said he would play both positions.

The 'yeah right' part of me says sign Anthony Rendon, move Moncada back to 2nd and Madigral plays short. But I'll awake from that dream heh.  But there's a lot of ways to skin the cat.

I think you destroy your chances of a strong IF defense by doing that. I could see giving up on Anderson, but Madrigal at SS, Moncada back to 2b? Rendon could be your only average IF defender.

[ChiSox59]

Tim Anderson is the White Sox SS for the foreseeable future guys. I also don’t think he’s one of the worst defensive SS in the game either. Too many errors for sure, but he’s not an awful defender. 

[Jose Abreu]

3 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

Tim Anderson is the White Sox SS for the foreseeable future guys. I also don’t think he’s one of the worst defensive SS in the game either. Too many errors for sure, but he’s not an awful defender. 

It's like people didn't even watch him in 2018 (specifically June-September, or most of the season). I have a really hard time believing that he'll never regain that level of defensive play 

[Balta1701]

5 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

Tim Anderson is the White Sox SS for the foreseeable future guys. I also don’t think he’s one of the worst defensive SS in the game either. Too many errors for sure, but he’s not an awful defender. 

Right now his fielding percentage is (slightly) worse than Marcus Semien's in his awful 2016 season where he was playing a position in the big leagues he had never been coached a until they brought in Washington. 

Anderson is absolutely promising, good range, but this is also really bad. Unacceptably bad. Something needs to be done differently, and if Anderson isn't being moved, then he needs better coaching and training. 

[Sarava]

1 hour ago, Jose Abreu said:

It's like people didn't even watch him in 2018 (specifically June-September, or most of the season). I have a really hard time believing that he'll never regain that level of defensive play 

Tim led MLB shortstops in errors in 2017 (the next worse guy had 8 less errors), was tied for 2nd worst in 2018, and leads right now in 2019 (Polanco is 2nd with 5 less errors). We can safely say he leads MLB in errors at shortstop over the last 3 years by a country mile and isn't showing any signs of improvement.

Yes he has great range and makes some really nice plays. But the errors are just too much. I don't know how anyone can argue otherwise at this point.

Edited September 3, 2019 by Sarava

[ChiSox59]

1 minute ago, Sarava said:

Tim led MLB shortstops in errors in 2017 (the next worse guy had 8 less errors), was tied for 2nd worst in 2018, and leads right now in 2019 (Polanco is 2nd with 5 less errors). We can safely say he leads MLB in errors at shortstop over the last 3 years by a country mile and isn't showing any signs of improvement.

Yes he has great range and makes some really nice plays. But the errors are just too much. I don't know how anyone can argue otherwise at this point.

Many of his errors are on balls other shortstops wouldn't even dream of getting to.  That matters.  The errors are really bad and he needs to cut down on them.  But I am not moving him to a position he has never played - probably in his life - without a long term solution for his position.  That doesn't exist.  Madrigal would not be an improvement.  

[Sarava]

4 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

Many of his errors are on balls other shortstops wouldn't even dream of getting to.  That matters.  The errors are really bad and he needs to cut down on them.  But I am not moving him to a position he has never played - probably in his life - without a long term solution for his position.  That doesn't exist.  Madrigal would not be an improvement.  

I would bet Madigral would be an improvement. But we'll never know one way or another most likely. I do know the Sox need to address these defensive deficiencies. You can't just cross your fingers and hope that these errors will go away eventually.

[SoxAce]

6 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

Many of his errors are on balls other shortstops wouldn't even dream of getting to.  That matters.

I'm willing to bet most of his errors are actually on the routine plays. 

[BackDoorBreach]

This is why drafting is really important after the first round.  The FA RFs are all kind of meh outside of Ozuna.  We don't have any trade chips to pick up a nice younger RF.  What is on the market is what we will be left with.

[ChiSox59]

1 minute ago, Sarava said:

I would bet Madigral would be an improvement. But we'll never know one way or another most likely. I do know the Sox need to address these defensive deficiencies. You can't just cross your fingers and hope that these errors will go away eventually.

I would bet that Madrigal would be considerably worse overall defensive shortstop than Anderson.  Tim has the capability to be a very good defender at SS.  His issues are largely correctable.  

[ChiSox59]

1 minute ago, SoxAce said:

I'm willing to bet most of his errors are actually on the routine plays. 

A lot of them are, yes. Sort of regretted how I phrased that.  But doesn't change the fact that he gets to balls other SS wouldn't even dream of.  

[Jose Abreu]

16 minutes ago, Sarava said:

Tim led MLB shortstops in errors in 2017 (the next worse guy had 8 less errors), was tied for 2nd worst in 2018, and leads right now in 2019 (Polanco is 2nd with 5 less errors). We can safely say he leads MLB in errors at shortstop over the last 3 years by a country mile and isn't showing any signs of improvement.

Yes he has great range and makes some really nice plays. But the errors are just too much. I don't know how anyone can argue otherwise at this point.

My argument is that errors as a statistic are meaningless, mostly because they are completely subjective. Tim was one of the better defensive shortstops in baseball in 2018. 

[BackDoorBreach]

9 hours ago, SoxAce said:

Me personally, I'd ask the Marlins what they'd want for Brian Anderson (I know.. the name makes you snicker, but he is a very underrated player). 

Or Hahn could travel down the Joc Pederson hole again...

He's 26 and worth 3.6 bWAR this year.  We don't have anything to trade for that type of player.  I'd think the Marlins could trade him though since they are several years away from anything but it won't be to us.

[Balta1701]

 

2 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

I would bet that Madrigal would be considerably worse overall defensive shortstop than Anderson.  Tim has the capability to be a very good defender at SS.  His issues are largely correctable.  

The basic problem is I said that last year and he got worse, substantially, with the sloppy plays and errors. He looked like he was showing improvmeent in the 2nd half of 2018 and he's gone downhill noticeably from there this year. So given that the White Sox are almost certain to do "absolutely nothing" to help improve this, do we just tolerate SS who should be way better than he is, but who is mediocre at best because he's so sloppy?

When the org won't work with people on things, I don't know what the answer is.

[Balta1701]

1 minute ago, Jose Abreu said:

My argument is that errors as a statistic are meaningless, mostly because they are completely subjective. Tim was one of the better defensive shortstops in baseball in 2018. 

While they're subjective, they also are a really big deal. They let people on base who otherwise wouldn't be. They give up multiple bases at a time.  They give the opposition an extra out. Sometimes they put a run on the board directly. 10 extra errors over the course of a season could easily be more than a win given away.

[Harold's Leg Lift]

9 minutes ago, Jose Abreu said:

My argument is that errors as a statistic are meaningless, mostly because they are completely subjective. Tim was one of the better defensive shortstops in baseball in 2018. 

Yep.  

[ChiSox59]

9 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

So given that the White Sox are almost certain to do "absolutely nothing" to help improve this, do we just tolerate SS who should be way better than he is, but who is mediocre at best because he's so sloppy?

When the org won't work with people on things, I don't know what the answer is.

Yah, I don't really look at things that way.  There is no way the Sox will "almost certainly do absolutely nothing" to improve Tim's defense.  Not at all shocked that is your take though.  

[Jose Abreu]

3 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

While they're subjective, they also are a really big deal. They let people on base who otherwise wouldn't be. They give up multiple bases at a time.  They give the opposition an extra out. Sometimes they put a run on the board directly. 10 extra errors over the course of a season could easily be more than a win given away.

The problem is also that so much of this is semantics based. I'd rather have a SS with 25 errors and the best range in baseball than one with 5 errors and no range, for instance. 

 

And the bold doesn't apply when an error is charged to a player on a ball that he only got to due to his range. Errors actually put better defensive infielders at a disadvantage for that reason. 

Edited September 3, 2019 by Jose Abreu

[ChiSox59]

3 minutes ago, Jose Abreu said:

The problem is also that so much of this is semantics based. I'd rather have a SS with 25 errors and the best range in baseball than one with 5 errors and no range, for instance. 

And to the bold, this doesn't apply when an error is charged to a player on a ball that he only got to due to his range. Errors actually put better defensive infielders at a disadvantage for that reason. 

Exactly.  And frankly, Tim makes most of those plays.  Alot of his errors do come fairly routine plays which are very correctable - and he's shown he's able to avoid those bad errors for stretches of time.  What errors don't consider is the trade off of plays that Tim makes on balls that other short stops wouldn't even get to as opposed to more than his fair share of frustrating errors on routine plays.  IMO, they at the very least even out, and if Tim can take a step forward on avoiding the more routine errors, he becomes an elite defender at SS.  I am not giving that up for short term solution or to try a guy like Madrigal out at SS.  

Edited September 3, 2019 by ChiSox59

[SoxAce]

I'm still trying to see the numbers where this amazing range Tim has this year. Even his range runs above average is in the negative (same with his defensive runs saved). Javy Baez for example is in the positive there (along with his defensive runs saved). 

Tim was much better last season by every metric. 

[fathom]

1 minute ago, SoxAce said:

I'm still trying to see the numbers where this amazing range Tim has this year. Even his range runs above average is in the negative (same with his defensive runs saved). Javy Baez for example is in the positive there (along with his defensive runs saved). 

Tim was much better last season by every metric. 

Yeah I feel I’m watching a different game than others. I’ve never watched him and thought “omg, his arm is incredible”.  I still think it would do wonders for him to learn how to do the old Rey Ordonez slide and throw.

[Jose Abreu]

Just now, fathom said:

Yeah I feel I’m watching a different game than others. I’ve never watched him and thought “omg, his arm is incredible”.  I still think it would do wonders for him to learn how to do the old Rey Ordonez slide and throw.

I guess I feel the same way about the whole defense this year. I don't think Jimenez is unplayable in LF, I don't think Anderson is a horrible defensive SS, I don't think Engel is that great in CF, and I think Moncada is elite defensively at 3B. Apparently all 4 of those are unpopular opinions.