2020 RF options

[Bob Sacamano]

9 minutes ago, bubba phillips said:

Anyone notice that Engel has his batting average up to a career-high .248?  It wouldn't surprise me in the least if the Sox put the need for another outfielder on the backburner and address other critical needs first.  

I can see them viewing the  2020 outfield as:  Jimenez, Robert, and Engel.   Engel has speed and is an excellent defensive outfielder.  Sure he has very little power but we don't need any more butchers in the outfield. One is more than enough.

I wouldn't put it past the FO to take this viewpoint.

 

 

No chance.

[Squirmin' for Yermin]

I absolutely would love to trade for one of the Mets guys (Conforto or Nimmo).. I also would LOVE Abreu to not be 1B and move to DH, or get someone else....  What about trying to sign Moustakas as a 2B/1B??  Have him play 2B until Madrigal comes back up and then move him over to 1B.. He played 2B this year 50 or so games and was serviceable.  He could also spell Moncada at 3B when Moncada needs rest.  PLUS HE'S A LEFTY! I'm starting to like this idea the more I think about it......

[Justinsettle]

2 hours ago, Perfect Vision said:

Can we just dispense with this narrative that the Sox are at some kind of intangible disadvantage compared with other teams, and that making the highest offer isn't enough, they have to make a much higher offer because who would want to come to the Sox?!?  The reason the Sox haven't signed marquee free agents is because they haven't made the highest offers to those players.  Period.  The reason that the Sox have signed mid-tier free agents like Melky Cabrera is because they have made the highest offers to those players.  If the Yankees offered $250 mil to Cole and the Sox offered $255 mil, I'd bet my right nut that he would sign with the Sox.

100% correct.  Highest offer wins almost all the time.  Look at any past big name free agent-  or really any free agent.  It has nothing to do with coaching staff, fan's, attendance or the team they are playing on.  Cole is going to get paid and get paid big the only thing that stops us from getting him is making the highest offer (which is doubtful we will!).  Perfect example is Harper was he so impressed with the Phillies he signed with them and not with his friends on the Cubs?  No Phillies offered more money- he definitely didn't sign there because the team is going to win a WS.

[35thstreetswarm]

57 minutes ago, TheFutureIsNear said:

Yeah because you asked me for evidence that’s impossible to provide. Neither you or I have access to the information of exactly what teams bid on free agents.

How about you prove me wrong that the player takes the highest bid every time?With evidence of what every team bid. I’ll wait...

 

But go ahead, live in your fairy tale world if it makes you feel better. I was right that the Sox were never going to sign Harper or Machado and I’ll be right again this off season. AGAIN, whatever helps you sleep at night. Myself? I prefer booze and weed to delusion...works much better 

Details about losing bids get leaked all the time.  Like, every time.  See White Sox/Manny Machado/2019 and the twenty billion threads discussing our offer as Exhibit A. 

Your repeated mantra is also contrary to basic principles of economics, which suggest that it's probably safer to assume that a rational actor will *not* leave tens of millions of actual American dollars on the table, rather than in his pocket, based on absurd soft factors like "attendance" or "popularity in the city."  But who knows?  Maybe this will be the year we see a free agent tell his economically-self-interested agent, and his wife, and his kids who stand to inherit his compounded wealth one day: "we're going to voluntarily assess ourselves a $25 million penalty today because, I don't know, the Chicago White Sox just don't seem cool, man." 

[TheFutureIsNear]

18 minutes ago, 35thstreetswarm said:

Details about losing bids get leaked all the time.  Like, every time.  See White Sox/Manny Machado/2019 and the twenty billion threads discussing our offer as Exhibit A. 

Your repeated mantra is also contrary to basic principles of economics, which suggest that it's probably safer to assume that a rational actor will *not* leave tens of millions of actual American dollars on the table, rather than in his pocket, based on absurd soft factors like "attendance" or "popularity in the city."  But who knows?  Maybe this will be the year we see a free agent tell his economically-self-interested agent, and his wife, and his kids who stand to inherit his compounded wealth one day: "we're going to voluntarily assess ourselves a $25 million penalty today because, I don't know, the Chicago White Sox just don't seem cool, man." 

Lol you have no clue what you’re even attempting to argue at this point

My “mantra” all along was the Sox would have to overpay to sign marquee free agents. So yes, if there is 10’s of millions of $’s difference I 100% agree with you that the player will throw everything else out the window to sign here. All things relatively equal and the player will choose to sign with the more attractive destination. That’s hard for you to understand? 

 

Also, our offer to Manny leaking doesn’t = “like every time.” That leaked because it was an attempt for our front office to save face that they gave an actual honest effort to sign him. 

 

 

[RTC]

1 hour ago, poppysox said:

Just don't get played.  Make your offer...they want a few days to think it over...sure.  Give them 5 days to take it...move on.  An agent should know what he wants for his client and RH should know what the club is willing to pay.  Can't afford to lose Wheeler or Strasburg because Cole is fooling around.  

This approach will get the Sox nowhere.  If you want the best of the best you HAVE to play the stupid games agents want to play.  I'm not saying I like it, but that's the reality these days. 

If you want top free agents:
1 - you have to be patient and let it drag on, likely all winter
2 - you have to overpay for the back end of the contracts

We can wish it was otherwise, but 99% of the time it's not.  The top teams sometimes do both.  They sign Wheeler while they're waiting for Cole.

[poppysox]

2 hours ago, bubba phillips said:

Anyone notice that Engel has his batting average up to a career-high .248?  It wouldn't surprise me in the least if the Sox put the need for another outfielder on the backburner and address other critical needs first.  

I can see them viewing the  2020 outfield as:  Jimenez, Robert, and Engel.   Engel has speed and is an excellent defensive outfielder.  Sure he has very little power but we don't need any more butchers in the outfield. One is more than enough.

I wouldn't put it past the FO to take this viewpoint.

 

 

I admire your courage for suggesting what some here will call a ridiculous idea.  Actually... if the FO made that move in order to afford Cole & Strasburg or Wheeler...I would welcome the move.  We have a budget that only the FO knows what it is.  Need to maximize what we get for the money.

[caulfield12]

5 minutes ago, poppysox said:

I admire your courage for suggesting what some here will call a ridiculous idea.  Actually... if the FO made that move in order to afford Cole & Strasburg or Wheeler...I would welcome the move.  We have a budget that only the FO knows what it is.  Need to maximize what we get for the money.

Relying on Engel as a starter in a competitive season is pretty nutty.

Yolmer put up much more impressive fWAR numbers yet proved over and over again an everyday role was too much...at least on a good team.  Same with Leury.

[poppysox]

3 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

Relying on Engel as a starter in a competitive season is pretty nutty.

Yolmer put up much more impressive fWAR numbers yet proved over and over again an everyday role was too much...at least on a good team.  Same with Leury.

We all want the best player available at every position.  When dealing with budgets someone is usually disappointed.  Because there are a shortage of can't miss right field options ...it might be the best place to tread water if the best starters are available if we splurge.  I have said repeatedly that I want 2 quality starters, Grandal, a right fielder and  2 or 3 quality relief arms.  If we have the money then of course get it all.  If RH has to skimp...my preference would be skimp in RF rather than starting pitchers.

[tray]

 

OK, I know Sox won't sign Cole and/or Castellanos but it is interesting to consider this comparison to gauge how close the Sox might be to the Cubs

next season in terms of being "competitive."

A.  2020 Cubs with Cole and Castellanos

to

B. 2020 White Sox with Cole and Castellanos

 

 

 

 

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

11 hours ago, cjgalloway said:

I absolutely would love to trade for one of the Mets guys (Conforto or Nimmo).. I also would LOVE Abreu to not be 1B and move to DH, or get someone else....  What about trying to sign Moustakas as a 2B/1B??  Have him play 2B until Madrigal comes back up and then move him over to 1B.. He played 2B this year 50 or so games and was serviceable.  He could also spell Moncada at 3B when Moncada needs rest.  PLUS HE'S A LEFTY! I'm starting to like this idea the more I think about it......

I have brought up Moustkas about 100 times in the last 2 years when he was a bargain. Now he has a mutual option for 2020 and he has been burned every time he chose free agency. He and the Brewers just may take that option. He's stepped up big time after the Yelish injury as has Trent Grisham and Braun  and Thames. What the Brewers have done is phenomenal after that injury goes to show you how important depth is.

Any one of the 3 Mets LH OF's. McNeil too. On the days the Mets were eliminated McNeil got HBP and broke a bone in his hand.

Edited September 26, 2019 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

[Chicago White Sox]

14 hours ago, ChiSox59 said:

There is as close to a 0% chance as humanly possible than the Sox go into 2020 without a RF that is not currently on the roster.  

100% agree.  No way in hell are they banking on Engel being a starting OF next year.

[Chicago White Sox]

4 hours ago, tray said:

 

OK, I know Sox won't sign Cole and/or Castellanos but it is interesting to consider this comparison to gauge how close the Sox might be to the Cubs

next season in terms of being "competitive."

A.  2020 Cubs with Cole and Castellanos

to

B. 2020 White Sox with Cole and Castellanos

 

 

 

 

Why are you lumping in Castellanos with Cole as if they’re the same tier of free agent?

[Chicago White Sox]

2 hours ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

I have brought up Moustkas about 100 times in the last 2 years when he was a bargain. Now he has a mutual option for 2020 and he has been burned every time he chose free agency. He and the Brewers just may take that option. He's stepped up big time after the Yelish injury as has Trent Grisham and Braun  and Thames. What the Brewers have done is phenomenal after that injury goes to show you how important depth is.

Any one of the 3 Mets LH OF's. McNeil too. On the days the Mets were eliminated McNeil got HBP and broke a bone in his hand.

There is probably less than a 1% chance he takes that option.  Moose is going to try and secure a multi-year deal.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

9 hours ago, Chicago White Sox said:

There is probably less than a 1% chance he takes that option.  Moose is going to try and secure a multi-year deal.

Maybe . The last 2 years he was a free agent and got squat when he was 29 and 30. He's guaranteed $11M next year should the option be used. Maybe he can get multiple years but it didn't work out for him twice before so any contract for him is for his years 31 and beyond. You're probably right but I'd say it's better than 1%. He signed with the Royals for $6.5M in his age 29 season in March, 2018 but I think he had a draft pick attached to him that hurt his market and since he was already with the Royals they didn't owe anyone a draft pick.

He also didn't sign with the Brewers after being traded to them until mid February ,2019 He signed the 1 plus the mutual option for $7 plus the $3M buyout for a luxury tax space salary of $10M with $11M for 2020.

Will be interesting to see what he gets should he become a FA. 2/25, 3/35 ?

Edited September 26, 2019 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

[Chicago White Sox]

20 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Maybe . The last 2 years he was a free agent and got squat when he was 29 and 30. He's guaranteed $11M next year should the option be used. Maybe he can get multiple years but it didn't work out for him twice before so any contract for him is for his years 31 and beyond. You're probably right but I'd say it's better than 1%.

Will be interesting to see what he gets should he become a FA. 2/25, 3/35 ?

I’m not even suggesting he will get a multi-year deal, but I definitely think he will shoot for one.  Gun to head, I think he gets like 2/$24M from someone, but a 1/$11M deal won’t be hard for him to find.

[ChiSox59]

There is actually a legitimate contingent of White Sox fans on twitter that want to trade for 1 year of Mookie Betts.

People - the Sox may find themselves in contention next August.  But they didn't go through this process to trade Madrigal, Vaughn or Cease ++ to acquire 1 year of an impending free agent in first year of expected decency.  Just pure lunacy. That is a deal the Sox maybe could consider another year or two down the line when the impending FA is the actual difference maker in what could be a legitimate WS contender. But not now.   

[mqr]

40 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

There is actually a legitimate contingent of White Sox fans on twitter that want to trade for 1 year of Mookie Betts.

People - the Sox may find themselves in contention next August.  But they didn't go through this process to trade Madrigal, Vaughn or Cease ++ to acquire 1 year of an impending free agent in first year of expected decency.  Just pure lunacy. That is a deal the Sox maybe could consider another year or two down the line when the impending FA is the actual difference maker in what could be a legitimate WS contender. But not now.   

Saw someone frame it as trading an unknown commodity for a known MVP, and like yeah that's true, but completely ignores hugely important context.

Edited September 26, 2019 by mqr

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

1 hour ago, ChiSox59 said:

There is actually a legitimate contingent of White Sox fans on twitter that want to trade for 1 year of Mookie Betts.

People - the Sox may find themselves in contention next August.  But they didn't go through this process to trade Madrigal, Vaughn or Cease ++ to acquire 1 year of an impending free agent in first year of expected decency.  Just pure lunacy. That is a deal the Sox maybe could consider another year or two down the line when the impending FA is the actual difference maker in what could be a legitimate WS contender. But not now.   

That is lunacy and I would hesitate to call them a "legitimate" contingent.

[ChiSox59]

17 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

That is lunacy and I would hesitate to call them a "legitimate" contingent.

Legitimate in the size.  There are a lot of them.  

[ChiSoxFanMike]

2 hours ago, ChiSox59 said:

There is actually a legitimate contingent of White Sox fans on twitter that want to trade for 1 year of Mookie Betts.

People - the Sox may find themselves in contention next August.  But they didn't go through this process to trade Madrigal, Vaughn or Cease ++ to acquire 1 year of an impending free agent in first year of expected decency.  Just pure lunacy. That is a deal the Sox maybe could consider another year or two down the line when the impending FA is the actual difference maker in what could be a legitimate WS contender. But not now.   

The only way that makes even a bit of sense is if Betts would sign an extension. But even if he is, they might as well sign him as a free agent in a year and keep the prospects.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

1 hour ago, ChiSox59 said:

Legitimate in the size.  There are a lot of them.  

Size doesn't matter. It's how well what you have between your ears works.

[ChiSox59]

14 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Size doesn't matter. It's how well what you have between your ears works.

We're on the same page, my friend.  

[BamaDoc]

7 hours ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Maybe . The last 2 years he was a free agent and got squat when he was 29 and 30. He's guaranteed $11M next year should the option be used. Maybe he can get multiple years but it didn't work out for him twice before so any contract for him is for his years 31 and beyond. You're probably right but I'd say it's better than 1%. He signed with the Royals for $6.5M in his age 39 season in March, 2018 but I think he had a draft pick attached to him that hurt his market and since he was already with the Royals they didn't owe anyone a draft pick.

He also didn't sign with the Brewers after being traded to them until mid February ,2019 He signed the 1 plus the mutual option for $7 plus the $3M buyout for a luxury tax space salary of $10M with $11M for 2020.

Will be interesting to see what he gets should he become a FA. 2/25, 3/35 ?

I think it may be a mutual option.  11 million for what he produced is pretty solid and I agree he may not want to go through FA again.  I expect a sweetner for him to accept the 1/11 by adding another year and maybe an option on top of that.

[GreenSox]

4 hours ago, ChiSox59 said:

There is actually a legitimate contingent of White Sox fans on twitter that want to trade for 1 year of Mookie Betts.

I'm sure there are.  These are the fans that think once he gets into the Sox happy clubhouse, that he'll sign an extension for below market.

These are the fans that believe that the Sox were legitimate contenders in June 2016; and that a 10 game winning streak was right around the corner.