For the Coop Haters

[BamaDoc]

From today's Athletic article by Fegan.  Mods delete if I copied to much but a very interesting read.  I was impressed and sometimes people make assumptions without information, we all do.  Most coaches don't become great or idiots overnight.  Sometimes the talent you have to work with makes a difference also.

 

Quote

“A lot of credit to Coop and Has (bullpen coach Curt Hasler) with having the old-school background, old-school pitching mentality and learning all this stuff from our analytics department,” Giolito said. “Really, really educating themselves so they can in turn help all the pitchers. We look at that stuff on an almost daily basis in our bullpens and stuff like that and that’s been super beneficial to me this year. When I can look at an outing and see I climbed up a little higher (in release point) and my ride wasn’t as good. OK, let me go into my next bullpen and focus on getting back into my good (arm) slot and then we have the Rapsodo on it and it’s like oh, there it is, there’s the carry and the way the ball should be coming out. A lot of credit to them for learning all that stuff, taking it all on.”

 

Read more: https://theathletic.com/1188532/2019/09/06/now-its-all-in-house-white-sox-pitchers-tout-a-leap-forward-in-data-usage-this-season/

 

Edited September 6, 2019 by BamaDoc
bolded for chitownsportsfan/backdoorbreach

[chitownsportsfan]

Notice how in the quote he has nothing specific to note about Cooper other than "old school pitching mentality" then goes into specifics about how the analytics to performance guys are helping him.  Faint praise imo for Cooper.

Edited September 6, 2019 by chitownsportsfan

[daggins]

"yeah big ups to Coop for draggin his ass into the 21st century, here's how he HASN'T been helping me before now"

[BackDoorBreach]

13 minutes ago, chitownsportsfan said:

Notice how in the quote he has nothing specific to note about Cooper other than "old school pitching mentality" then goes into specifics about how the analytics to performance guys are helping him.  Faint praise imo for Cooper.

This is how i interpreted that as well.

 

It seems like he is praising more of the technology than a person (Coop).

[joejoedairy]

I also like to go to the Reposado during a game. 

[BamaDoc]

There is more in the article then I felt comfortable quoting since it is a pay site.  I had a different take after reading the entirety of the article.  Dang people sorry I tried to bring information to a year long discussion where most people are "reading between the lines" or "interpreting".  Read it all before jumping to conclusions unless you are determined to keep your narratives.  Are we league leaders, I doubt it, but I was happy to get some look at what they are doing and happy we are not ignoring technology.  At the risk of copying to much another Gio quote

I’m learning all this stuff from Has and Coop. Whereas maybe a couple years ago I would talk to (Danny) Farquhar, look things up on my own but I didn’t really know what I was looking at. Now it’s all in-house.”

Edited September 6, 2019 by BamaDoc

[Jack Parkman]

1 hour ago, joejoedairy said:

I also like to go to the Reposado during a game. 

Yeah, you need a nice sipping tequila to consume White Sox baseball from time to time. 

[SoxBlanco]

21 minutes ago, BamaDoc said:

There is more in the article then I felt comfortable quoting since it is a pay site.  I had a different take after reading the entirety of the article.  Dang people sorry I tried to bring information to a year long discussion where most people are "reading between the lines" or "interpreting".  Read it all before jumping to conclusions unless you are determined to keep your narratives.  Are we league leaders, I doubt it, but I was happy to get some look at what they are doing and happy we are not ignoring technology.  At the risk of copying to much another Gio quote

I’m learning all this stuff from Has and Coop. Whereas maybe a couple years ago I would talk to (Danny) Farquhar, look things up on my own but I didn’t really know what I was looking at. Now it’s all in-house.”

I appreciate the info.  Some people will complain no matter what, even when they are not privy to what actually goes on behind the scenes. Thanks for posting this.

[ScootsMcGoots]

31 minutes ago, SoxBlanco said:

I appreciate the info.  Some people will complain no matter what, even when they are not privy to what actually goes on behind the scenes. Thanks for posting this.

What I was thinking exactly. No one is in that clubhouse and understands how hard these players work. We hide behind computer screens and complain about people not doing their jobs publicly without any real knowledge of what goes into it. Sad really.

[chitownsportsfan]

Just now, ScooterMcGee said:

What I was thinking exactly. No one is in that clubhouse and understands how hard these players work. We hide behind computer screens and complain about people not doing their jobs publicly without any real knowledge of what goes into it. Sad really.

We have all the knowledge we need.  

Last winning season was in 2012.  Team hasn't sniffed a division title in 15 years.  Same guys in charge of that run are still in charge.

So yea, as fans, we don't need to shove our head up the bull's ass to get a good look at the steak.  We can just taste the steak, and know it's putrid.

[ScootsMcGoots]

3 minutes ago, chitownsportsfan said:

We have all the knowledge we need.  

Last winning season was in 2012.  Team hasn't sniffed a division title in 15 years.  Same guys in charge of that run are still in charge.

So yea, as fans, we don't need to shove our head up the bull's ass to get a good look at the steak.  We can just taste the steak, and know it's putrid.

This narrative is already beaten like a dead horse. But I guess I'll keep beating it. It's year 3 of the rebuild. What did you think this year was going to look like? Hahn himself said at the beginning of the season that the success of 2019 will not be measured by wins and losses, but by the progress made by our core pieces. I would say we have seen that, and this year has been pretty successful by that measure.

Edited September 6, 2019 by ScooterMcGee

[chitownsportsfan]

Just now, ScooterMcGee said:

This narrative is already beaten like a dead horse. But I guess I'll keep beating it. It's year 3 of the rebuild. What did you think this year was going to look like? Hahn himself said at the beginning of the season that the success of 2019 will not be measured by wins and losses, but by the progress made by our core pieces. I would say we have seen that, and this year has been pretty successful by that measure.

There are two separate parts to this:

1) Was/Is the rebuild the right decision, and 

2) Was/Is this FO the ones to lead it?

I think almost 100% of fans, here or otherwise, would agree that the rebuild was the right decision.  Many less would agree that Hahn and Co. were the ones to lead it.

As I posted last night the rebuild year gets a straight "C".  It was the minimum required to show competency.  Do better.  There are elite teams in baseball with elite FOs.  Minimal competency isn't going to get the job done.  First exam is Free Agency.  They need to ace it.

[Balta1701]

6 minutes ago, ScooterMcGee said:

This narrative is already beaten like a dead horse. But I guess I'll keep beating it. It's year 3 of the rebuild. What did you think this year was going to look like? Hahn himself said at the beginning of the season that the success of 2019 will not be measured by wins and losses, but by the progress made by our core pieces. I would say we have seen that, and this year has been pretty successful by that measure.

With the talent they brought in from those trades and how close it was to the big leagues, I genuinely thought year 3 would look a lot better than this. Maybe not in the playoffs but at least over .500. Said so at the time. Absolutely better than this. Other rebuilding teams needed longer, but none of them had the huge infusion of high minor league level talent that the White Sox got in those 3 trades. The Cubs were in the world series in Epstein's year 4 and although he got an assist from Hoyer robbing the Padres, I thought we should have been able to recover faster than them. So, year 4 - we better be ready to do some damage, because 4 years was the Cubs standard and 5 years was the Astros. 

[Jack Parkman]

19 minutes ago, chitownsportsfan said:

We have all the knowledge we need.  

Last winning season was in 2012.  Team hasn't sniffed a division title in 15 years.  Same guys in charge of that run are still in charge.

So yea, as fans, we don't need to shove our head up the bull's ass to get a good look at the steak.  We can just taste the steak, and know it's putrid.

You can get a good look at a T-Bone by sticking your head up a butcher's ass...........I loved Tommy Boy. 

[GreatScott82]

Yeah.. I thought sniffing .500 was realistic too. Especially after the fun first half of the season. When they started losing in the 2nd half, all of a sudden I see quotes like "It takes 5 years to build a beautiful house" and "Lets wait until after the off season before we call ourselves playoff ready"  IMO with next year being year 4, it should technically equate to year 5 via being all those assets Hahn was able to trade to speed this thing up. If it honestly takes 5 years to sniff the postseason given the rebuild jump start Hahn had, this thing likely has failed. Also, Hahn seems to be questioning himself when he mentions, "lets wait until after the offseason" To me, this does not sound like a confident GM. Does Uncle Jerry really have his hands tied or is Hahn and KW just bad at acquiring premium free agents? 2020 is a big season for everyone involved. This winter is extremely important. Hahn has a lot to prove, he simply can't afford to strikeout two off-seasons in a row. 

[Jack Parkman]

40 minutes ago, GreatScott82 said:

Yeah.. I thought sniffing .500 was realistic too. Especially after the fun first half of the season. When they started losing in the 2nd half, all of a sudden I see quotes like "It takes 5 years to build a beautiful house" and "Lets wait until after the off season before we call ourselves playoff ready"  IMO with next year being year 4, it should technically equate to year 5 via being all those assets Hahn was able to trade to speed this thing up. If it honestly takes 5 years to sniff the postseason given the rebuild jump start Hahn had, this thing likely has failed. Also, Hahn seems to be questioning himself when he mentions, "lets wait until after the offseason" To me, this does not sound like a confident GM. Does Uncle Jerry really have his hands tied or is Hahn and KW just bad at acquiring premium free agents? 2020 is a big season for everyone involved. This winter is extremely important. Hahn has a lot to prove, he simply can't afford to strikeout two off-seasons in a row. 

The injuries slowed it down. That is where the extra year comes from. Shit happens. let's move on from here. What I'm more concerned about is that they haven't been able to develop any surprise prospects outside of their first round picks and trades. Hansen looked good in 2017, but he fell apart completely the next year. That's about as close as they got. They traded one of their 3 best International signings since 2015. 2019 looks a lot different with a healthy Rodon and Kopech. That's 2 TOR arms, along with the emergence of Giolito. 

Edited September 6, 2019 by Jack Parkman

[Jerksticks]

Woulda been cool if this was Hansen’s first year in the bigs.  Sure looked like an incredible pick for a while. 

[Jack Parkman]

8 minutes ago, Jerksticks said:

Woulda been cool if this was Hansen’s first year in the bigs.  Sure looked like an incredible pick for a while. 

At this time in 2017 I thought Hansen had a chance to be the best out of all of the Sox SP prospects. He was topping out at 99 mph and led the minors in strikeouts. He had just reached AA. It's unfortunate what happened to him in 2018. He got injured, got into bad habits, and never recovered. It's hard to repeat your delivery when you're 6-9. I don't think he's going to be protected in the rule V draft, and I do think someone's going to take a shot on him in the AAA portion. Wouldn't surprise me if the same happened for Rutherford. Both have a chance to do well elsewhere. Neither have shown enough to deserve a 40 man spot, but both still have considerable upside left if a team can unlock them. 

Edited September 6, 2019 by Jack Parkman

[Chicago White Sox]

1 hour ago, Balta1701 said:

With the talent they brought in from those trades and how close it was to the big leagues, I genuinely thought year 3 would look a lot better than this. Maybe not in the playoffs but at least over .500. Said so at the time. Absolutely better than this. Other rebuilding teams needed longer, but none of them had the huge infusion of high minor league level talent that the White Sox got in those 3 trades. The Cubs were in the world series in Epstein's year 4 and although he got an assist from Hoyer robbing the Padres, I thought we should have been able to recover faster than them. So, year 4 - we better be ready to do some damage, because 4 years was the Cubs standard and 5 years was the Astros. 

Those teams also probably had much better minor league systems prior to their rebuilds. It works both ways.

[Balta1701]

6 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Those teams also probably had much better minor league systems prior to their rebuilds. It works both ways.

Not at all. Baseball America had the Astros 25th in 2011 when they really started their rebuild - 26th was this team named the Chicago White Sox, so their system was "as bad as the White Sox" which is pretty darn terrible. The Cubs were a little better (around 15th) thanks to Starlin Castro but the thing that mattered for that team was that they flipped Andrew Cashner for Anthony Rizzo in a trade that looked suspicious at the time and still does.

[ptatc]

1 hour ago, chitownsportsfan said:

There are two separate parts to this:

1) Was/Is the rebuild the right decision, and 

2) Was/Is this FO the ones to lead it?

I think almost 100% of fans, here or otherwise, would agree that the rebuild was the right decision.  Many less would agree that Hahn and Co. were the ones to lead it.

As I posted last night the rebuild year gets a straight "C".  It was the minimum required to show competency.  Do better.  There are elite teams in baseball with elite FOs.  Minimal competency isn't going to get the job done.  First exam is Free Agency.  They need to ace it.

I would disagree that free agency is the exam. The only exam that matters is the results in wins and loses. They need to be competitive next year and challenging for the playoffs in 2021. I dont care how they get there. If their evaluation is that they have it the system, fine. However the results need to start showing next year.

[ScootsMcGoots]

5 hours ago, chitownsportsfan said:

There are two separate parts to this:

1) Was/Is the rebuild the right decision, and 

2) Was/Is this FO the ones to lead it?

I think almost 100% of fans, here or otherwise, would agree that the rebuild was the right decision.  Many less would agree that Hahn and Co. were the ones to lead it.

As I posted last night the rebuild year gets a straight "C".  It was the minimum required to show competency.  Do better.  There are elite teams in baseball with elite FOs.  Minimal competency isn't going to get the job done.  First exam is Free Agency.  They need to ace it.

Um, I think the first exam was who are you going to get back for your trades. I would say passed with flying colors so far with seeing how Jimenez, Gio, Moncada, and i think eventually Lopez are panning out. You'll see Kopech next year. That was the first exam. The development seems to be working. Idk how this year is a C. Literally every player who has needed to show improvement has, and has done it very well. Gio (exceeding expectations by a long ways), Lopez in the 2nd half, Anderson destroying the baseball all year, Moncadas eye has improved drastically and has been around .300 all year, Jimenez power has shown and he would probably be pushing 40 homers if not for the injuries, what a pleasant suprise McCann has been, Bummer and Marshall, even Leury, Jose's offense is still elite I don't care what the advance stats say, he's a starting 1B or DH on any world series team. 

4 hours ago, Balta1701 said:

With the talent they brought in from those trades and how close it was to the big leagues, I genuinely thought year 3 would look a lot better than this. Maybe not in the playoffs but at least over .500. Said so at the time. Absolutely better than this. Other rebuilding teams needed longer, but none of them had the huge infusion of high minor league level talent that the White Sox got in those 3 trades. The Cubs were in the world series in Epstein's year 4 and although he got an assist from Hoyer robbing the Padres, I thought we should have been able to recover faster than them. So, year 4 - we better be ready to do some damage, because 4 years was the Cubs standard and 5 years was the Astros. 

Well, year 3 probably would have been better if Kopech, Dunning and Rodon didn't all need TJS, and Robert didnt lose a year because of his thumb. Bet good money this team would be .500 if those 4 players were on this roster. And I bet Robert would be up here if the Sox were around .500. As Parkman said, shit happened and it slowed the rebuild down.

Edited September 7, 2019 by ScooterMcGee

[kitekrazy]

 

5 hours ago, ScooterMcGee said:

This narrative is already beaten like a dead horse. But I guess I'll keep beating it. It's year 3 of the rebuild. What did you think this year was going to look like? Hahn himself said at the beginning of the season that the success of 2019 will not be measured by wins and losses, but by the progress made by our core pieces. I would say we have seen that, and this year has been pretty successful by that measure.

So is the one below.

5 hours ago, ScooterMcGee said:

What I was thinking exactly. No one is in that clubhouse and understands how hard these players work. We hide behind computer screens and complain about people not doing their jobs publicly without any real knowledge of what goes into it. Sad really.

[ScootsMcGoots]

3 minutes ago, kitekrazy said:

 

So is the one below.

Thats fine but my comment jived with the original post. 

[caulfield12]

B-/C+ because of the lack of progress in the minors beyond the obvious top guys.

If Collins is actually for real, it COULD become a B.

That said, we still have major questions about every aspect of pitching beyond Giolito and still don’t have a very solid RH bullpen option other than Colome, who will be gone after next year.  Everything rotation-wise hinges on Kopech and Cease.  And Herrera is the Amazon rain forest.

As for position players, Anderson’s defense this year is partially negating his nice offensive breakthrough in what projected as another 20/20 season.

Same thing with Jimenez.  Unless we go back to GregStats, he will struggle by ANY type of WAR measure.

And how much of McCann’s offense is sustainable?

The clock is ticking.

The scary part is the Sox have consistently failed at finding even replacement level hitting out of RF and DH for seemingly a half decade or longer.  That’s supposed to be the easy part.  Up the middle of the diamond and 3B are the premium positions, which should be covered for the first time with the delayed arrivals of Madrigal and Robert.