The juiced ball

[ptatc]

2 hours ago, GenericUserName said:

Well pitchers now have a better understanding of pitch movement and pitch tunneling/sequencing than ever before. But also, IIRC the laces aren't as low this year but the leather is different. They are using a new one designed to prevent the blistering issues pitchers were having and apparently it is more aerodynamic than the previous leather. In that case the break over a shorter distance would likely still be there, but over a longer distance the drag would still probably be lower than a non-juiced ball.

if the the leather makes it either easier or more difficult yo grip the ball, that is a much greater effect than the aerodynamics.

I don't think they have a better understanding of pitch movement, it's just that with newer equipment it can be quantified in much more detail. We've always know that a "tighter spin" on the ball will have a truer path. Now with technology they can measure the spin and get the most out of it.

How would you explain the greater performance in strikeouts and greater performance in homeruns if both are true for the ball? Either the pitchers can use the ball more efficiently, thus more strikeouts or they can't use it as well and there is more HRs.

[ptatc]

1 hour ago, TaylorStSox said:

They can alter their hormone balance to mask the tests. If Olympic weight lifters can continue to beat the tests, you better believe far richer athletes are beating them too. Come on.

With Sarms available over the counter right now, it's easier than ever. 

Everyone who thinks these guys are clean should watch Icarus and pay attention to cycling/Olympic weight lifting. 

They can't mask the hormone levels with the blood tests very easily. What you are referring to is the substances to mask the Testosterone/Epitestosterone ratio. Current blood test skip that and test the actual levels.

SARMS are similar to the old androsenedione where it can help a little with strength gains but nothing really significant. They just make the androgen receptors more sensitive and able to increase the receptor capability. These will not increase strength all that much and won't change the actual hormone level all that much.

[ptatc]

1 hour ago, TaylorStSox said:

Also, cycling (not the biking kind) is way more sophisticated than its ever been. The guys that get caught are the ones that get lazy or get bad advice. 

The blood test catch the cycling much easier because it stays in the blood much longer, so the cycling would need to be so spread out that it really wouldn't be very effective.

[ptatc]

12 minutes ago, TaylorStSox said:

Hell yeah Altuve is juicing. Jesus man. It's obvious. It's not even a question. Athletes throughout history have been willing to risk it all for a chance to be the best. Don't be ridiculously naive. The danger is one of the biggest draws. 

This is undoubtedly true. However, it's very difficult to get away with it now to have a similar effect that it did in previous years before the blood testing was instituted.

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

17 minutes ago, TaylorStSox said:

Hell yeah Altuve is juicing. Jesus man. It's obvious. It's not even a question. Athletes throughout history have been willing to risk it all for a chance to be the best. Don't be ridiculously naive. The danger is one of the biggest draws. 

I'm not sure the danger is the draw. I'm also not naive to the steroid usage levels in professional sports - or even college sports. My point is I never assume a guy who is different is using and there are A LOT of instances of players you would assume use who didnt and players you assumed didnt use, did.

Altuve's body really breaks down in the second half. While that doesn't prove anything it is support for the "he's not juicing" camp.

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

8 minutes ago, ptatc said:

This is undoubtedly true. However, it's very difficult to get away with it now to have a similar effect that it did in previous years before the blood testing was instituted.

Blood, hair, urine... it doesnt matter, top level chemists will always be ahead of testers. I agree the extent of usage won't be at the levels from before, and the benefits won't reach that level, but testers by nature are adjusting and evolving based on the research and work done by the chemists so they'll always be behind.

[Harold's Leg Lift]

42 minutes ago, TaylorStSox said:

Hell yeah Altuve is juicing. Jesus man. It's obvious. It's not even a question. Athletes throughout history have been willing to risk it all for a chance to be the best. Don't be ridiculously naive. The danger is one of the biggest draws. 

He's taken enough steroids to kill a small horse.

[ottawa_sox]

7 hours ago, ptatc said:

Like all things, it's probably some of both. I don't think I've seen such upper cut swings ever in history. Of course there will be more home runs if everyone swings like that. Not coincidentally strikeouts are up as well. 

 

3 hours ago, ptatc said:

if the the leather makes it either easier or more difficult yo grip the ball, that is a much greater effect than the aerodynamics.

I don't think they have a better understanding of pitch movement, it's just that with newer equipment it can be quantified in much more detail. We've always know that a "tighter spin" on the ball will have a truer path. Now with technology they can measure the spin and get the most out of it.

How would you explain the greater performance in strikeouts and greater performance in homeruns if both are true for the ball? Either the pitchers can use the ball more efficiently, thus more strikeouts or they can't use it as well and there is more HRs.

Perhaps hitters incorporated uppercut swings to advantage of the juiced ball.  Ball first, followed by strikeouts and home runs.  Also, I think, the same sensibilities drive fewer hitters to choke up on 2 strikes.   

[ptatc]

5 hours ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

Blood, hair, urine... it doesnt matter, top level chemists will always be ahead of testers. I agree the extent of usage won't be at the levels from before, and the benefits won't reach that level, but testers by nature are adjusting and evolving based on the research and work done by the chemists so they'll always be behind.

I dont think you understand the concept of blood testing. Previous tests needed to look for specific drugs. This is why the chemists had the advantage. They could create drugs never seen before thus they couldn't test for them. With the current blood tests they have a baseline hormone level. If that level goes up for any reason, it's a positive test. They do not need to look for specific drugs any longer. 

[ptatc]

2 hours ago, ottawa_sox said:

 

Perhaps hitters incorporated uppercut swings to advantage of the juiced ball.  Ball first, followed by strikeouts and home runs.  Also, I think, the same sensibilities drive fewer hitters to choke up on 2 strikes.   

Chicken or the egg. As I said it's some of both a different ball and the players not caring about strikeouts and upper cut swinging on every pitch. I think the latter is more of the reason though.

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

1 minute ago, ptatc said:

I dont think you understand the concept of blood testing. Previous tests needed to look for specific drugs. This is why the chemists had the advantage. They could create drugs never seen before thus they couldn't test for them. With the current blood tests they have a baseline hormone level. If that level goes up for any reason, it's a positive test. They do not need to look for specific drugs any longer. 

Literally next to no one is testing positive for elevated hormone levels at this point. They are testing positive for masking agents. I hear you but the Olympics have had drug testing forever and countless people pass while juicing. There will always be something to beat the tests.

[ptatc]

33 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

Literally next to no one is testing positive for elevated hormone levels at this point. They are testing positive for masking agents. I hear you but the Olympics have had drug testing forever and countless people pass while juicing. There will always be something to beat the tests.

The twins pitcher was suspended for a masking agent that is a diuretic as well. But the others this year were all for various things like steroids and growth hormone derivatives. They can try the masking agents but it doesnt really make a difference be cause of the testing. They find the abnormal  levels then test for the substance. Sometimes the only thing they find is a masking agent.

In the Olympic setting you'll see some of the suspensions listed as abnormal hormone levels. Once they find the abnormal then they see if they can find a substance. They can't always pinpoint it but they dont need to with this system. 

I'm not saying its impossible just very difficult especially at the levels to produce huge gains. There are no more Bonds with an increased head size or Ben Johnson with yellow eyes.

Edited September 19, 2019 by ptatc

[pcq]

On 9/18/2019 at 9:39 AM, BackDoorBreach said:

The ball is different though.  The laces are tighter, or not as high up, and the pill inside the ball is different.  Allegedly this was not done on purpose. 

The part that is strange to me is MLB has not stated they were going to go back to the ball used before and they own Rawlings.  IIRC it's adding ~5 feet on average compared to the previous ball. If anything I think the lower laces are affecting the pitchers more than the ball just being some type of tennis ball.  Swing path change over the last few years is also playing into it.

You are close to correct. The manufacturing process was upgraded. Not sure if there was a devious plan. Things change. There is less resistance mlb has said.