In 2019 the White Sox Struck Gold on their Most Important Players (Dan Z content)

[chitownsportsfan]

Yea but Dan, have you seen Hahn in FA?  Great stuff from Dan Z nonetheless.  Pay attention to when he talks about projecting Moncada and others as he's the man behind ZIPS.

Quote

he Chicago White Sox are a franchise that can just taste the end of their rebuild. While they didn’t always move every veteran they could, they got top-shelf returns for Chris Sale, Adam Eaton, and José Quintana. The winning part tends to be the fun part, and the Sox play in a division with two teams that are in much worse shape, and two good teams that don’t spend aggressively. In front of this backdrop, you can almost feel the White Sox’s eagerness to throw their winter clothing to the back of the closet.

 

The Setup

From a transaction perspective, 2018 wasn’t quite as action-packed for the White Sox as prior years had been, largely because most of the team’s old core had already been traded to other teams. Jose Abreu was essentially the last remnant of the pre-rebuild White Sox, but the team didn’t move him for two significant reasons. First, the market for sub-elite first base/corner outfielder types has collapsed in recent years, and with Abreu 31 and dropping from his previous numbers, it was unlikely a return would be impressive. The other stumbling block to an Abreu trade was that Chicago didn’t actually want to trade him. Abreu’s a well-respected player in the clubhouse and popular with fans, as well as a mentor to Yoán Moncada, so if you’re not going to do better than, say, a 26-year-old Double-A reliever, why not keep him?

As I’ve discussed in the past, one of the disappointing things about the team’s 2018 was how few questions they really answered about their talent. Moncada looked like the same extraordinarily talented but up-and-down player at the end of 2018 that he appeared to be at the beginning. Neither Tim Anderson nor Yolmer Sánchez took a step forward, nor did much of the back of the roster, and the Daniel Palkas and Adam Engels failed to make much of a case for more significant roles. And the player who showed the most progress, Michael Kopech, was ruled out for the 2019 season after needing Tommy John surgery before 2018 had even wrapped.

Without knowing what to make a lot of their talent, the White Sox didn’t engage in much offseason wheeling-and-dealing, instead choosing to mostly hunker down for 2019. There was one big exception, however: the hunt for Manny Machado. For the future of the White Sox, this was one of the most promising signs.

“But Dan, I thought you hate rebuilding teams picking up veterans! I’m sure I’ve seen about 300 snarky tweets on this subject from you in the last…week or so!”

 

I do tend to criticize teams jumping the gun, but not in this case. I was quite hard on the Padres for going after Eric Hosmer years before the team was ready, for example. Signing Manny Machado, however, is very different than bringing in Hosmer; Manny Machado is a terrific baseball player. It’s hard to develop a Machado, and given his youth and ability, the White Sox could have reasonably expected him to be a star through an entire generation of talent.

In an attempt to give Machado additional reasons to come to Chicago, the team even acquired his brother-in-law, Yonder Alonso, and signed a friend of his, Jon Jay, to a one-year contract. (Of course, a more competitive offer would likely have been a more compelling inducement than any combination of friends or family.) While I’m unaware of any connection between Machado and Kelvin Herrera, who signed for two years and $18 million, I’m just going to imagine that they own a racehorse or a Popeye’s franchise together or something.

The Projection

ZiPS projected the White Sox for the same 68-94 record it spun for the Royals and Tigers. The projections saw a lot of things to like about Chicago’s roster, but believed the team’s major league talent base was just too thin and raised too many questions to forecast for more. Cobbling together a playoff-bound rotation still looked like a proposition that was a few years off, with Carlos Rodón getting the only two-WAR projection among the pitchers. ZiPS was especially grumpy about the outfield, and justifiably so given how it turned out.

The (very, very, very) preliminary 2020 projections pushed the White Sox near 80 wins, much faster than either the Royals or the Tigers, but the computer remained pessimistic about the short-term.

The Results

Entering 2019, the three starting pitchers ZiPS projected with the most career WAR remaining were Michael Kopech (before considering Tommy John surgery), Carlos Rodón, and Dane Dunning. The season got off to a cruel start, with Dunning needing Tommy John surgery in March and Rodón following suit in May. Alonso and Jay both bombed in Chicago, combining for -2.2 WAR, with neither establishing any kind of trade value. Daniel Palka failed to hit for a three-year-old’s weight, let alone his own. Reynaldo López’s FIP turned out to be a better predictor of his 2019 ERA than his actual ERA was, and Dylan Covey only managed a single quality start in a dozen opportunities.

Now that we’ve gotten the low points out of the way, the White Sox did learn a lot about their team, some of the lessons were pretty darn good. By the end of the 2018 season, the franchise seemed to be nearly at their wit’s end about how to turn Lucas Giolito around. Gio shocked baseball by being a legitimate Cy Young contender after turning his changeup into his primary weapon. More on that projection down below!

Another mystery seemingly solved in 2019 was the fate of Yoán Moncada. Moncada impressed early in 2018, finishing April with a .267/.353/.524 line and a position near the top of the leaderboards in exit velocity. I was convinced back then that we were witnessing the Moncada breakout his raw talent suggested was possible. Instead, he hit .228/.306/.372 with only 11 homers against 172 strikeouts the rest of the season.

The puzzle was how Moncada could have such lousy plate discipline stats with such a cautious approach. He struck out 217 times despite being among the 20 best hitters in 2018 at avoiding swinging at pitches outside the strike zone. There never was anything wrong with Moncada’s ability to identify pitches, only his ability to actually hit the ones he wanted to.

Much more at the link.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

Good article. Thanks for posting. His knowledge of the Sox seems good . The only thing I might change about his outlook for Giolito and I hate to be a downer but apparently his revamped delivery puts a lot more stress on his shoulder which is probably why he has the sore lat and the Sox shut him down.

[chitownsportsfan]

3 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Good article. Thanks for posting. His knowledge of the Sox seems good . The only thing I might change about his outlook for Giolito and I hate to be a downer but apparently his revamped delivery puts a lot more stress on his shoulder which is probably why he has the sore lat and the Sox shut him down.

most national stat guys believe in the "clubs can find 1.5 WAR vets at any time" sort of thinking.  which usually works when your GM isn't Rick Hahn.

We'll see.  It was a great year from the kids but Hahn's problem has never been trades it's been adding average regulars via FA.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

It's too bad I can't pick the FA's . I think if anyone wanted to do a check of who I have suggested in the past you'd find I have a pretty good record. I wanted Brantley this year when many didn't . I thought Schoop and Avi were the most talented non tenders available, I also thought Fiers would be a good pick up along with Moustakas. I thought the Sox missed some opportunities to grab some cheap vets to trade but they chose relievers instead and that's not worked out real well. Actually nothing but the initial trades for our top talent has worked out real well but hopefully some of the draft picks and Robert change that soon. But overall the drafting has had more misses and internationally besides Robert the Sox are terrible along with being terrible at FA's.

So far my early picks in FA are Gennett, Dickerson, Brock Holt Moustakas again if his option isn't picked up  which it should be by the Brewers. I haven't decided on pitchers and its really an easy call on Cole and Rendon even if most think we have no chance.

Edited September 19, 2019 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

[caulfield12]

9 hours ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

It's too bad I can't pick the FA's . I think if anyone wanted to do a check of who I have suggested in the past you'd find I have a pretty good record. I wanted Brantley this year when many didn't . I thought Schoop and Avi were the most talented non tenders available, I also thought Fiers would be a good pick up along with Moustakas. I thought the Sox missed some opportunities to grab some cheap vets to trade but they chose relievers instead and that's not worked out real well. Actually nothing but the initial trades for our top talent has worked out real well but hopefully some of the draft picks and Robert change that soon. But overall the drafting has had more misses and internationally besides Robert the Sox are terrible along with being terrible at FA's.

So far my early picks in FA are Gennett, Dickerson, Brock Holt Moustakas again if his option isn't picked up  which it should be by the Brewers. I haven't decided on pitchers and its really an easy call on Cole and Rendon even if most think we have no chance.

Dickerson even with another injury?

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

1 hour ago, caulfield12 said:

Dickerson even with another injury?

I don't think the Sox are likely to make the playoffs next year because too much depends on getting quality free agents in too many positions plus Cease is still learning and Kopech is coming off injury. Lopez also needs time to shed his inconsitencies.

So yes I know Gennett and Dickerson  will need to be evaluated regarding status of injuries but people had the same concerns about Brantley and that turned out pretty well for the Astros. Of course they had the same concerns about AJ Pollock but I didn't want him because of being RH plus recent history had shown Brantley to be the much better player,

While true, Dickerson seems unable to stay healthy he did produce well for the Pirates and  Phillies when healthy and that is my main concern in what I view as a non playoff year next year and another year of development for the MILB OF's in the Sox system.. Now if the Sox want to treat next year like a playoff year then there would be other non LH options like Ozuna and Puig.The Sox could decide that the Cubans Grandal and Puig would make Robert, Moncada and Abreu one big happy family. I wouldn't recommend Puig since the best thing I can say about him is that he marches to a different drummer or to his own tune. Castellanos, another RH, is another option but not sure about his defensive capabilities . Of course people might say the same about Dickerson especially in light of a fractured foot and being mostly a left fielder. Dickerson was relatively healthy from 2016-2018 with close to 550 AB's in 2 of those 3 years and over 600 in the other. He also has a career OPS+ of 119 and OPS of .832.

Part of my reasoning for guys like Gennett , Holt, and Dickerson is I would prefer the bulk of any spending done to be on the pitching where the need is greater. Plus they are all LH with proven track records when healthy and not overly old and will provide some upside given that they should be relatively inexpensive. Sox are in desperate need of depth and I see these guys as good depth pieces and or possible starters. Holt and Gennett are also extremely versatile.

I think the Sox might have a shot at signing 1 good starting pitcher and if they choose either Grandal or Ozuna. if they can succeed at that they won't spend much more and that's where the Dickerson's Holts  Gennetts or Moustakas comes into play. If they end up with a RH right fielder then all the lesser pieces need to be LH and all 4 of those guys are LH or the Sox can pick and choose among those 4 . They will also still need money to upgrade the bullpen. So i am looking for 2 decent signings among starting pitcher, RF and catcher then fill in the blanks with the remaining LH guys and BP.

That's a lot of signings and I don't have much faith the Sox will pull it off but I 'm trying to stay positive and making these suggestions based on budget and need. We all want much better players but all signings cannot be ideal. Most players have question marks so risks are inevitable. You minimize the risk of injury by acquiring guys with very recent proven track records when uninjured. It's basically the same logic I used with non tendered guys only with a down year in place of injury but with recent decent track records.

Edited September 19, 2019 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

[Balta1701]

10 hours ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

It's too bad I can't pick the FA's . I think if anyone wanted to do a check of who I have suggested in the past you'd find I have a pretty good record. I wanted Brantley this year when many didn't . I thought Schoop and Avi were the most talented non tenders available, I also thought Fiers would be a good pick up along with Moustakas. I thought the Sox missed some opportunities to grab some cheap vets to trade but they chose relievers instead and that's not worked out real well. Actually nothing but the initial trades for our top talent has worked out real well but hopefully some of the draft picks and Robert change that soon. But overall the drafting has had more misses and internationally besides Robert the Sox are terrible along with being terrible at FA's.

So far my early picks in FA are Gennett, Dickerson, Brock Holt Moustakas again if his option isn't picked up  which it should be by the Brewers. I haven't decided on pitchers and its really an easy call on Cole and Rendon even if most think we have no chance.

The article in the post we're replying to literally says that there's no reason to trade Jose Abreu because even if they're performing well, aging guys on 1 year deals don't have a lot of trade value. Schoop and Avi would have been decent players for this team and yes Avi would easily have been better than RH's right field Jon Jay with no physical trash, but pretty much none of those guys bring you anything of value in a trade. With some of those guys we have literally seen that - Fiers was non-tendered last offseason and even though he was coming off a good year there was no interest in him. He's got a great record this year, but his peripherals are weaker than his record, so not only would he not command much, but playing with our defense behind him instead of solid defenders like Semien and Chapman would make his numbers worse. These guys just aren't worth anything in a trade. I similarly would argue that with worse coaching, Brantley would be far less of a hitter this year.

I have no issue with any of the suggestions you offer this year. But signing guys in order to trade them? It's just a rotten strategy. Sign guys because they fill a role you have to fill, you don't get that much back in trades for guys who signed fair contracts.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

32 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

The article in the post we're replying to literally says that there's no reason to trade Jose Abreu because even if they're performing well, aging guys on 1 year deals don't have a lot of trade value. Schoop and Avi would have been decent players for this team and yes Avi would easily have been better than RH's right field Jon Jay with no physical trash, but pretty much none of those guys bring you anything of value in a trade. With some of those guys we have literally seen that - Fiers was non-tendered last offseason and even though he was coming off a good year there was no interest in him. He's got a great record this year, but his peripherals are weaker than his record, so not only would he not command much, but playing with our defense behind him instead of solid defenders like Semien and Chapman would make his numbers worse. These guys just aren't worth anything in a trade. I similarly would argue that with worse coaching, Brantley would be far less of a hitter this year.

I have no issue with any of the suggestions you offer this year. But signing guys in order to trade them? It's just a rotten strategy. Sign guys because they fill a role you have to fill, you don't get that much back in trades for guys who signed fair contracts.

I barely mentioned Abreu so I have no qualms with what he said. All i was saying about Avi, Schoop , Brantley and Fiers is that they would have made the Sox better. I wasn't necessarily endorsing them as trade bait though that possibility certainly existed. but since they all signed with good teams or  playoffs teams there was no trading them.

I also cannot agree with your assessment of Brantley. You cannot make decisions based on your belief that Sox coaching sucks. Brantley was a finished product and if you have some kind of proof Houston made him better then present it. Otherwise it's pure speculation .

Everything I wrote was about making the Sox better and my recommendations in the past were as a qualifier for my knowledge going forward. I really made no large point about whiffing on opportunities to improve the team through the trading of those players since that involves knowing what kind of contract the Sox would've signed them to and that's impossible.. For all I know Brantley could've signed for 2 years and an option or the same with Fiers.. It was just a minor point in the failures of the Sox during the rebuild along with the draft picks and international signings amongst others. If I wanted to I suppose i could look at Houston or the Cubs transactions and see if they picked up any veterans to trade during their rebuilds but I don't see it as anything I really need to defend.

I'm glad you have no issues with my other suggestions for next year.

Edited September 19, 2019 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

[Balta1701]

23 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

I barely mentioned Abreu so I have no qualms with what he said. All i was saying about Avi, Schoop , Brantley and Fiers is that they would have made the Sox better. I wasn't necessarily endorsing them as trade bait though that possibility certainly existed. but since they all signed with good teams or  playoffs teams there was no trading them.

Even if Brantley, for example, had signed with us and done exactly as well as he has been in Houston, are the 6 extra wins for a team on pace for 70 wins something we're really going to brag about? 

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

45 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Even if Brantley, for example, had signed with us and done exactly as well as he has been in Houston, are the 6 extra wins for a team on pace for 70 wins something we're really going to brag about? 

Maybe you missed my edit but I also said maybe Brantley would've signed with the Sox for a slightly more than he did with the Astro's, There's just no way of knowing. But considering the majority of the Sox MILB OF's were still in the lower minors when Brantley signed. it is conceivable he could have been enticed with 2 years plus an option as a bridge. Remember I am not making an argument about how you think they would've fit or the type of contract that would ve been needed to get them. All I am doing is picking players I think are the most likely to help the Sox within the context of team need, budget and higher player priorities.   It is not my job to figure out how the Sox were treating 2019 in the off season or how they will look at 2020. Obviously the Sox were looking at getting better in 2019 with the pursuit of Machado.  I just would've added more before the pursuit of Machado which the Sox didn't do. So we now get one more good draft pick and get to see how the Sox fare with this years free agent class.

Once Houston finished the rebuild and won a World Series they have not stood idly by and rested on their laurels. Verlander finished off the rebuild and guys like Brantley , Greineke and  Yordan Alvarez have helped sustain it.

Speaking of Alvarez he was acquired from the Dodgers for a relief pitcher at the trade deadline of 2016 for Josh Fields a reliever with a near 7.00 ERA who supposedly a few teams still wanted so you never know who will get you what at the deadline. Hahn should know this very well since he did nearly the same thing with Tatis. Houston finished 6 games above .500 that year and it was the last year they missed the playoffs. In the 2017 World Series against the Dodgers Fields gave up 2 HR's to the Astros. SO now that trade has bit the Dodgers twice because of how Alvarez has developed and because of what Fields did in the World Series and it may haunt them again if this years World Series ends up being Stros and Dodgers again if Alvarez helps beat them.

Edited September 19, 2019 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

[Balta1701]

1 minute ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Maybe you missed my edit but I also said maybe Brantley would've signed with the Sox for a slightly more than he did with the Astro's, There's just no way of knowing. But considering the majority of the Sox MILB OF's were still in the lower minors when Brantley signed. it is conceivable he could have been enticed with 2 years plus an option as a bridge. Remember I am not making an argument about how you think they would've fit or the type of contract that would ve been needed to get them. All I am doing with picking player I think are the most likely to help the Sox within the context of team need, budget and higher player priorities.   It is not my job to figure out out the Sox were treating 2019 in the off season or how they will look at 2020. Obviously the Sox were looking at getting better in 2019 with the pursuit of Machado.  I just would've added more before the pursuit of Machado which the Sox didn't do. Spo we now get one more good draft pick and get to see how the Sox fare with this years free agent class.

Once Houston finished the rebuild and won a World Series they have not stood idly by and rested on their laurels. Verlander finished off the rebuild and guys like Brantley , Greineke and  Yordan Alvarez have helped sustain it.

Speaking of Alvarez he was acquired from the Dodgers for a relief pitcher at the trade deadline of 2016 for Josh Fields a reliever with a near 7.00 ERA who supposedly a few teams still wanted so you never know who will get you what at the deadline. Hahn should know this very well since he did nearly the same thing with Tatis. Houston finished 6 games above .500 that year and it was the last year they missed the playoffs. In the 2017 World Series against the Dodgers Fields gave up 2 HR's to the Astros. SO now that trade has bit the Dodgers twice because of how Alvarez has developed and because of what Fields did in the World Series and it may haunt them again if this years World Series ends up being Stros and Dodgers again if Alvarez helps beat them.

Yes, it is entirely possible and likely that if we paid these guys more they would have joined us in 2019. However, it is precisely because we avoided making those sorts of moves in 2018 and 2019 that we now have the resources to go out and do them this offseason, when the timing is right. So yes, the White Sox could have signed Brantley and said "now we have an OF spot covered and it went well", or they could have signed other guys people advocated for last offseason - AJ Pollock or Andrew McCutchen, and had it go terribly wrong. 

It may still go terribly wrong with signings this offseason, but the good news is we didn't spend $14 million for 2019 on one of these guys this year only to get 0.4 WAR out of Pollock on a 71 win team for that money. The Jay signing was bad enough and that was only $4 million. 

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

8 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Yes, it is entirely possible and likely that if we paid these guys more they would have joined us in 2019. However, it is precisely because we avoided making those sorts of moves in 2018 and 2019 that we now have the resources to go out and do them this offseason, when the timing is right. So yes, the White Sox could have signed Brantley and said "now we have an OF spot covered and it went well", or they could have signed other guys people advocated for last offseason - AJ Pollock or Andrew McCutchen, and had it go terribly wrong. 

It may still go terribly wrong with signings this offseason, but the good news is we didn't spend $14 million for 2019 on one of these guys this year only to get 0.4 WAR out of Pollock on a 71 win team for that money. The Jay signing was bad enough and that was only $4 million. 

Well that is my whole point. You know. as well as I do. that the good teams continue to make moves that have ended up helping them in the draft,and international signings ( the Twins rebounded quickly through the international draft with guys like Kepler Polanco and Rosario plus a good crop of FA's even though the year before they failed miserably at Free Agency.). The Dodgers found a hidden gem in Muncy and drafted Fulmer's team mate Walker Buehler with the 24th pick in the 1st round.

Tampa Bay somehow manages to content with a very limited budget as does Oakland. With Hahn and Company not doing much internationally besides trading away their money or with Micker Adolfo having an outside chance at success and high draft picks like Burger Fulmer,and Burdi being non productive I see very little to indicate they are doing the rebuild the right way. So the main point is the Sox have not done enough to increase the odds of success because of lacking in other areas. They treat the international draft like its a way to make a few dollars instead of developing players. They have not invested in many high speed cameras like I have seen with the Dodgers , Astros or even the Brewers when I recently saw Plesac surrounded by cameras to help him whenever that picture I saw was taken. Basically all our eggs are now being put into one off season or perhaps this one and next years FA class and with their record finding talent in most areas it's very hard to imagine the rebuild having any kind of sustained success. My best hope is to win a World Series somehow .

[Balta1701]

9 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Well that is my whole point. You know. as well as I do. that the good teams continue to make moves that have ended up helping them in the draft,and international signings ( the Twins rebounded quickly through the international draft with guys like Kepler Polanco and Rosario plus a good crop of FA's even though the year before they failed miserably at Free Agency.). The Dodgers found a hidden gem in Muncy and drafted Fulmer's team mate Walker Buehler with the 24th pick in the 1st round.

Tampa Bay somehow manages to content with a very limited budget as does Oakland. With Hahn and Company not doing much internationally besides trading away their money or with Micker Adolfo having an outside chance at success and high draft picks like Burger Fulmer,and Burdi being non productive I see very little to indicate they are doing the rebuild the right way. So the main point is the Sox have not done enough to increase the odds of success because of lacking in other areas. They treat the international draft like its a way to make a few dollars instead of developing players. They have not invested in many high speed cameras like I have seen with the Dodgers , Astros or even the Brewers when I recently saw Plesac surrounded by cameras to help him whenever that picture I saw was taken. Basically all our eggs are now being put into one off season or perhaps this one and next years FA class and with their record finding talent in most areas it's very hard to imagine the rebuild having any kind of sustained success. My best hope is to win a World Series somehow .

While I don't disagree with your assessment of our front office (seriously dude I'm the one who pushed RH as the worst GM in baseball even before the Machado debacles), I want to point out how fundamentally different every single name on that list is from the guys you've noted above. Kepler, Polanco, Rosario, Buehler - none of those guys were signed on the offseason free agent market. Muncy was, but you haven't been listing guys like Muncy who bounced around as minor leaguers, you've been listing guys like Fiers and Moustakas who are later in their careers, established, and more expensive. The closest guy mentioned above to a guy like Muncy is Avi Garcia - but even if Avi had a huge 2019, he'd be a free agent after this year. 

The White Sox's performance on the international market this season is a complete embarrassment even if our big Cuban signing turns into something good. Rick Hahn should be publicly ripped for that. They literally had 2 years to prepare and couldn't find enough to spend their money on, so they sent it to Texas as a bribe to get them to absorb Nate Jones's contract and build equity with ownership.

They should absolutely have been smarter about how they ran these things, no doubt. But none of that changes the point I was making above - that the moderate to big money free agents outside of Harper and Machado, prior to this season, were the wrong moves. Avoiding those signings was the correct decision.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

25 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

While I don't disagree with your assessment of our front office (seriously dude I'm the one who pushed RH as the worst GM in baseball even before the Machado debacles), I want to point out how fundamentally different every single name on that list is from the guys you've noted above. Kepler, Polanco, Rosario, Buehler - none of those guys were signed on the offseason free agent market. Muncy was, but you haven't been listing guys like Muncy who bounced around as minor leaguers, you've been listing guys like Fiers and Moustakas who are later in their careers, established, and more expensive. The closest guy mentioned above to a guy like Muncy is Avi Garcia - but even if Avi had a huge 2019, he'd be a free agent after this year. 

The White Sox's performance on the international market this season is a complete embarrassment even if our big Cuban signing turns into something good. Rick Hahn should be publicly ripped for that. They literally had 2 years to prepare and couldn't find enough to spend their money on, so they sent it to Texas as a bribe to get them to absorb Nate Jones's contract and build equity with ownership.

They should absolutely have been smarter about how they ran these things, no doubt. But none of that changes the point I was making above - that the moderate to big money free agents outside of Harper and Machado, prior to this season, were the wrong moves. Avoiding those signings was the correct decision.

Oh I know you agree with me or I with you on the Front Office but when talent is cheap I still think you must act on it regardless of how ready the Sox were to compete . Talent especially cheap talent provides depth and the Sox have very little of that which makes the coming off season so daunting.

For example you might say Brantley wasn't cheap at $15M a year for 2 years but given how well he has performed this year it's possible he will provide excess value on his contract and he would have alleviated the Sox need to search for a RF this year . If Fiers had been signed then there goes the need for a starting pitcher. We still would need one but not 2 like many here think. That would've mad this off season much less harrowing.

I can't remember if I liked LeMahieu or not . I will have to look it up but he was signed by the Yankees for 2 years $24M . He was recommended by Jim Hendry who drafted him for the Cubs and knew his profile very well and was then working for the Yankees and their data said he was undervalued offensively and elite defensively. Again just another good team making a better move than the Sox seem capable of making with another versatile, smart guy capable of playing 1st , 2nd, SS, 3rd base . This is also why staying with the same FO or talent evaluation personnel or inexperienced personnel is a bad idea . Hendry ends up with the Yankees and becomes a key figure in acquiring LeMahieu.

Edited September 19, 2019 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

[caulfield12]

Right now, we have gotten what, Bummer and maybe McCann out of the last three years of throwing playing time at the wall and hoping some of it would stick?

Outside of the core youngsters, you’d have to hope for a better track record than THAT given our #1/2 farm ranking and a plethora of draft picks.

Basically, without Q, Eaton and Sale to trade...the rebuild would now pretty much be completely dead in the water.

With all the advantages in the world to start off and with “unprecedented financial flexibility,” we might/should/could have a very competitive team in 2021.

Under normal circumstances...with pretty much any other team in baseball, Hahn would be on the way out the door, Luis Robert alone would not have been enough to save him (and that deal was always spun as being more about Paddy, KW and JR.)

 

And, reading this thread, it’s yet another reminder of how much better the Twins and Indians have been at filling spots 7-25 on their roster with competent big leaguers who can hold their own.

 

[chitownsportsfan]

10 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

Right now, we have gotten what, Bummer and maybe McCann out of the last three years of throwing playing time at the wall and hoping some of it would stick?

Outside of the core youngsters, you’d have to hope for a better track record than THAT given our #1/2 farm ranking and a plethora of draft picks.

Basically, without Q, Eaton and Sale to trade...the rebuild would now pretty much be completely dead in the water.

With all the advantages in the world to start off and with “unprecedented financial flexibility,” we might/should/could have a very competitive team in 2021.

Under normal circumstances...with pretty much any other team in baseball, Hahn would be on the way out the door, Luis Robert alone would not have been enough to save him (and that deal was always spun as being more about Paddy, KW and JR.)

 

And, reading this thread, it’s yet another reminder of how much better the Twins and Indians have been at filling spots 7-25 on their roster with competent big leaguers who can hold their own.

 

We need to acquire some juicers and let them spread it around the clubhouse like the Twins.  I'm only half joking.  The penalties are a joke.

[Chicago White Sox]

6 hours ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Oh I know you agree with me or I with you on the Front Office but when talent is cheap I still think you must act on it regardless of how ready the Sox were to compete . Talent especially cheap talent provides depth and the Sox have very little of that which makes the coming off season so daunting.

For example you might say Brantley wasn't cheap at $15M a year for 2 years but given how well he has performed this year it's possible he will provide excess value on his contract and he would have alleviated the Sox need to search for a RF this year . If Fiers had been signed then there goes the need for a starting pitcher. We still would need one but not 2 like many here think. That would've mad this off season much less harrowing.

I can't remember if I liked LeMahieu or not . I will have to look it up but he was signed by the Yankees for 2 years $24M . He was recommended by Jim Hendry who drafted him for the Cubs and knew his profile very well and was then working for the Yankees and their data said he was undervalued offensively and elite defensively. Again just another good team making a better move than the Sox seem capable of making with another versatile, smart guy capable of playing 1st , 2nd, SS, 3rd base . This is also why staying with the same FO or talent evaluation personnel or inexperienced personnel is a bad idea . Hendry ends up with the Yankees and becomes a key figure in acquiring LeMahieu.

The Sox tried to sign Brantley this past offseason but apparently he wanted to go to a contender.