A Realistic Offseason

[SonofaRoache]

1 hour ago, Thad Bosley said:

Then you are completely unfamiliar with, or choose to totally ignore, the FO’s long-running record of futility.  

Why is it so difficult for you to reconcile fan sentiment where it stands today with all of the incompetence demonstrated the past two decades by this FO, the same FO who would have been relieved of their duties a long time ago by anyone of the other 29 clubs.

The negativity you see today is a cumulative effect of all of the losing witnessed by our fan base as a result of this front office.  The only thing to make that negativity dissipate is to FINALLY start winning again.  

It’s not enough in the least bit to be content just because the team is in the stage in the rebuild where the FO said it would be right now.  That’s just a stage in a rebuild - it’s NOT winning White Sox baseball.  Not yet, anyway.  

Plenty to be optimistic about, no doubt, but still plenty to be skeptical and even negative about; again, anchoring to the FO’s record.  It’s up to the FO to change the fan base’s perception of them.  

If we are on board with the rebuild, we have to at least see through to 2020. We expected to be good next year back in 2016 and certainly after the Q trade. I want to see what they do this FA and next season before I lose faith. 

[Balta1701]

1 hour ago, thxfrthmmrs said:

I think Cole’s case is different because he essentially became a different pitcher after working with Astros’ pitching staff and analytics team. I’m just wondering how much it will impact him negatively moving to a situation less suited for him to be successful.

Not only has he learned things he won't just forget if he goes to work with a new pitching coach...but if he isn't quite this good for a couple years, some team could totally think that they could fix him and be willing to take on 5 years of his deal

[Balta1701]

12 minutes ago, SonofaRoache said:

If we are on board with the rebuild, we have to at least see through to 2020. We expected to be good next year back in 2016 and certainly after the Q trade. I want to see what they do this FA and next season before I lose faith. 

The reason to fire everyone this year isn't the win-loss record, it's the pathetic number of public temper tantrums thrown by people representing a billion dollar business with hundreds of millions of dollars of revenue per year. It won't happen because ownership is ok with their asset looking like a 3-ring circus. Next year we can resume evaluating based on W-L, but those angry 4 year old quality temper tantrums from multiple adult humans should never be tolerated by a professional business.

[poppysox]

53 minutes ago, SonofaRoache said:

Wow you've been a fan for 65 years? It's awesome that you will get to see a nice long run of success. 

Looking forward to it.

[Chicago White Sox]

36 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

The reason to fire everyone this year isn't the win-loss record, it's the pathetic number of public temper tantrums thrown by people representing a billion dollar business with hundreds of millions of dollars of revenue per year. It won't happen because ownership is ok with their asset looking like a 3-ring circus. Next year we can resume evaluating based on W-L, but those angry 4 year old quality temper tantrums from multiple adult humans should never be tolerated by a professional business.

What in the world are you talking about?

[Balta1701]

15 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

What in the world are you talking about?

Kenny Williams ranting repeatedly on air during spring training about how unreasonable the fans were to label them cheap just because they said they'd spend money and then didn't. 
Steve Stone insulting the fans saying they just don't understand what they're doing.
RR being asked a standard question about what he does to take new information from analytics into account and publicly telling reporters that they should "F*** off".

That doesn't even count Rick Hahn's "Friends and family plan" last offseason or bragging publicly about how he was going to add a "middle of the order bat" at Soxfest in January before...not.

No other billion dollar business would ever behave like this. In 2016 the lack of professionalism came from the locker room and a manager that spent years not caring. This year, the front office was an embarrassment, to  the same level as 2016. Rant after rant after rant and no discipline whatsoever. Shut your mouth you're being paid 7 figures to act like professionals, don't act like 5 year olds. Not even United Airlines is this poorly run that they'd spend an entire year screaming about how their customers just aren't smart enough to understand their business model. Maybe AT&T. 

[NWINFan]

35 minutes ago, poppysox said:

Looking forward to it.

After 65 years, it's a wonder you're still sane.  After 55 years, It's a wonder I'm still sane.

[poppysox]

10 minutes ago, NWINFan said:

After 65 years, it's a wonder you're still sane.  After 55 years, It's a wonder I'm still sane.

My Cub fan brother (2 years older) has put up with disappointment longer than me.  When we were young it would frequently break down to pushing & shoving bouts.  I've learned with age to keep it in perspective. I seldom miss a game and the Sox have brought me many hours of enjoyment and yes...frustration.   It's a great pastime...not life and death.

[Chicago White Sox]

42 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Kenny Williams ranting repeatedly on air during spring training about how unreasonable the fans were to label them cheap just because they said they'd spend money and then didn't. 
Steve Stone insulting the fans saying they just don't understand what they're doing.
RR being asked a standard question about what he does to take new information from analytics into account and publicly telling reporters that they should "F*** off".

That doesn't even count Rick Hahn's "Friends and family plan" last offseason or bragging publicly about how he was going to add a "middle of the order bat" at Soxfest in January before...not.

No other billion dollar business would ever behave like this. In 2016 the lack of professionalism came from the locker room and a manager that spent years not caring. This year, the front office was an embarrassment, to  the same level as 2016. Rant after rant after rant and no discipline whatsoever. Shut your mouth you're being paid 7 figures to act like professionals, don't act like 5 year olds. Not even United Airlines is this poorly run that they'd spend an entire year screaming about how their customers just aren't smart enough to understand their business model. Maybe AT&T. 

While I agree they should shut their mouths for the most part, they’re also protecting their owner of a privately owned sports franchise.  They don’t need to play by the same rules that most companies do.

[Black_Jack29]

1 hour ago, Balta1701 said:

Kenny Williams ranting repeatedly on air during spring training about how unreasonable the fans were to label them cheap just because they said they'd spend money and then didn't. 
Steve Stone insulting the fans saying they just don't understand what they're doing.
RR being asked a standard question about what he does to take new information from analytics into account and publicly telling reporters that they should "F*** off".

That doesn't even count Rick Hahn's "Friends and family plan" last offseason or bragging publicly about how he was going to add a "middle of the order bat" at Soxfest in January before...not.

To that list, we can add the childish and insulting way in which they tried to convince fans at the beginning of the year that they were going to sign Machado (signing Alonso and Jay, and leaking at least one offer that was undoubtedly never made).

I agree that this is all way more off-putting than the product they've put on the field over the past decade.

[Black_Jack29]

51 minutes ago, poppysox said:

My Cub fan brother (2 years older) has put up with disappointment longer than me.  When we were young it would frequently break down to pushing & shoving bouts.  I've learned with age to keep it in perspective. I seldom miss a game and the Sox have brought me many hours of enjoyment and yes...frustration.   It's a great pastime...not life and death.

Much can be said about Cubs fans, but at least they seem to enjoy being Cubs fans, regardless of what their team looks like. I'm sure that they complain, but they at least seem to enjoy watching and rooting for their team. Too many Sox fans sound like angry, politics-obsessed nutcases on Twitter. (Or pre-2004 Red Sox fans.)

Edited October 6, 2019 by Black_Jack29

[poppysox]

27 minutes ago, Black_Jack29 said:

Much can be said about Cubs fans, but at least they seem to enjoy being Cubs fans, regardless of what their team looks like. I'm sure that they complain, but they at least seem to enjoy watching and rooting for their team. Too many Sox fans sound like angry, politics-obsessed nutcases on Twitter. (Or pre-2004 Red Sox fans.)

My brother and I live in different States but manage to talk by phone a couple hours a week.  Often the subject is baseball and now it's the offseason trades that are sure to help our respective teams.  We both think our managers could be better and think coaches ought to be able to teach an outfielder to throw to the proper base.  We both hate inner divisional play and think 1/3 of the teams making the playoffs is unfair to the team who played best all year.  Playing half your schedule against 4 teams is simply boring...I want to see the stars of the Yanks & Boston more than 1 home series per year.  You get it...we liked the game the way it was before the changes.  We love that todays player is bigger, stronger and faster.  I wish the average player would be baseball smarter...but you can't have everything.  I guess I'm trying to say that baseball with all it's warts is a great pastime for your whole life.  Try to enjoy it even when it's not easy.

[NWINFan]

13 hours ago, Black_Jack29 said:

Much can be said about Cubs fans, but at least they seem to enjoy being Cubs fans, regardless of what their team looks like. I'm sure that they complain, but they at least seem to enjoy watching and rooting for their team. Too many Sox fans sound like angry, politics-obsessed nutcases on Twitter. (Or pre-2004 Red Sox fans.)

Yeah, it was real classy the way they  treated Steve Bartman. And there were so many times Cub games at Wrigley had to be stopped because fans littered the field with garbage. And there was the time they were hassling Dodger pitchers in the bullpen. And there is a "basket" on the outfield walls because Cub fans don't know how to behave at a baseball game. Yes, they are a happy bunch all right.

[SonofaRoache]

14 hours ago, Black_Jack29 said:

Much can be said about Cubs fans, but at least they seem to enjoy being Cubs fans, regardless of what their team looks like. I'm sure that they complain, but they at least seem to enjoy watching and rooting for their team. Too many Sox fans sound like angry, politics-obsessed nutcases on Twitter. (Or pre-2004 Red Sox fans.)

You must not know many Cubs fans. The only two fan bases worse than them are the Red Sox and Yankees. 

[oldsox]

You oughta see them on the road.  Denver, for example.  Bunch of drunks.

[bmags]

I’m a bit surprised how little board interest there is in Keuchel compared to last offseason.

Is there rumors I don’t know? He can’t receive a QO again right?

[Bob Sacamano]

3 hours ago, bmags said:

I’m a bit surprised how little board interest there is in Keuchel compared to last offseason.

Is there rumors I don’t know? He can’t receive a QO again right?

Correct. And I would be interested. 

[bmags]

14 minutes ago, soxfan2014 said:

Correct. And I would be interested. 

I always like him more than board but have no reason other than a soft “I think he just knows how to pitch and will still be good throwing 84 mph”

[Colinski]

1 hour ago, bmags said:

I always like him more than board but have no reason other than a soft “I think he just knows how to pitch and will still be good throwing 84 mph”

He was number one on my offseason plan last year (mostly for beard reasons).

i explained that I believe control/finesse guys regress slower. A guy who throws 96 and then goes down to 90 ends up out the league as he doesn’t know how to live at that speed. Keuchel has less to lose and still would get ground outs.

[Balta1701]

3 hours ago, Colinski said:

He was number one on my offseason plan last year (mostly for beard reasons).

i explained that I believe control/finesse guys regress slower. A guy who throws 96 and then goes down to 90 ends up out the league as he doesn’t know how to live at that speed. Keuchel has less to lose and still would get ground outs.

I like that he's a substantial contrast with everyone else in our rotation and that he still had success this y ear. We could really use a LHP somewhere in there to mix things up, and I still think Bumgarner is a personality mismatch with too much of our roster. That would leave Keuchel as an entirely reasonable target. 

[Black_Jack29]

I just get the feeling that Bumgarner’s arm is going to fall off any minute now.

[YouCanPutItOnTheBoardYES!]

Wheeler and Keuchel as the 2 SP additions this offseason would be nice.

1. Giolito 

2. Wheeler

3. Keuchel

4. Cease

5. Lopez

with Kopech and Rodon in the wings.

 

 

[ron883]

I'd be happy with Keuchel as a back of the rotation guy. Still want the Sox to sign a top pitcher as well. 

[Chicago White Sox]

6 minutes ago, YouCanPutItOnTheBoardYES! said:

Wheeler and Keuchel as the 2 SP additions this offseason would be nice.

1. Giolito 

2. Wheeler

3. Keuchel

4. Cease

5. Lopez

with Kopech and Rodon in the wings.

 

 

Yeah, that would be pretty fantastic.

[thxfrthmmrs]

WARNING: Radical idea here.

I mostly got this idea from a Red Sox article:

https://www.providencejournal.com/sports/20191005/radical-strategy-may-be-just-what-sox-need

Granted this guy (named Bill Koch, no less) is smoking crack with some of his ideas, but a more balanced version of the Devers to Dodgers trade is what I want to explore.

Trade Moncada, Lopez, Burdi, Herrera to Dodgers for Turner, Lux, Verdugo, May

Trade Anderson to Dbacks for Zac Gallen and Alek Thomas

Yolmer is traded or non-tendered.

Salary with arb and pre-arb is roughly $60M

Free agency:

Moustakas 3/$45M, Abreu 2/$30M with team option for 3rd, Hamels 1/$13 with team option for 2nd, Hendrick 1/$6, Cishek 2/$12M

Salary is about $115M still having room to play with. If you're a dreamer, Rendon would been a fun add for about $20M AAV more than Moose. But as it stands, this team is ready to compete.

CF Robert

SS Lux (L)

DH Abreu

1B turner

3B Moose (L)

LF Eloy

RF Verdugo (L)

C McCann

2B Madrigal

Bench: Hendrick/Leury/Collins/Mendick

Rotation. Giolito/Hamels/Gallen/Cease/May with Kopech and Rodon as depth pieces

BP: Colome/Bummer/Cishek/Fry/Marshall/Osich/Cordero/Lindgren

Thoughts: Steep price to pay for LAD, and I think Dodgers' rationale for trade for Moncada is their one of the best teams in helping players cut down their K% and improving aprpoach. Moncada could be a top 5 player under their tutelage. They move 3 valuable young pieces in Lux, Verdugo and May, but none of  them has similar upside and is proven like Yoan. Plus I think they're also one of the few teams that could fix ReyLo. For White Sox, moving Moncada is hard, and perhaps irrational, but they get immense value in return and fill holes in RF and SP with MLB ready, cost controlled talent. By moving Yoan and Timmy for younger players, they effective extended their window by a year or two, while remaining competitive in 2020. Verdugo and Gallen are someone I could see RH extending to buy out a few years of their free agency. Lastly, looking ahead to  2021, Turner walks and Vaughn is primed to take over. Sox should has PLENTY of payroll left to land a big fish, e.g. Betts if they still need him.

If you were expecting a realistic offseason plan, that may have been disappointing.