A Realistic Offseason

[BackDoorBreach]

2 hours ago, caulfield12 said:

Agreed, would much rather invest 3/$40-50 million into Grandal than 50% more for Ozuna...at a less critical position.

Not to mention there's nothing in our system after Collins, and Zavala/Mercedes just aren't realistic options at this point.

In RF, we still have multiple possibilities of getting 2-3 fWAR production on the cheap from Walker/Adolfo/Rutherford.

Being solid up the middle (C/SS/2B/CF) is a HUGE advantage, and we're almost there.   Anderson's going to have to shore up his sloppiness and concentration errors, but having Madrigal around will really benefit him, IMO.

 

 

Literally how much better could you get defensively than Yolmer?  He's probably going to win a Gold Glove.  

[caulfield12]

3 hours ago, BackDoorBreach said:

Literally how much better could you get defensively than Yolmer?  He's probably going to win a Gold Glove.  

That will never happen...not when your offense is borderline abysmal.

Just watch, DJ LeMahieu will win...somehow.   As much as it would be nice to win, would that guarantee Yolmer sticking around?  Moustakas was actually 10th on this ranking, Wong and Ketel Marte vying for the NL lead.

https://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=2b&stats=bat&lg=all&qual=y&type=8&season=2019&month=0&season1=2019&ind=0&team=0&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=0&startdate=2019-01-01&enddate=2019-12-31&sort=20,d

Edited October 24, 2019 by caulfield12

[poppysox]

17 hours ago, Sarava said:

I'm in agreement that the Sox need to be focusing more on RF, DH, a TOR starter and maybe a bullpen arm or two - all before even thinking of replacing McCann. It's just not at the top of the list of needs. And it's certainly the easiest of the 8 positions to accept lesser hitting, if you are getting good defense and he is calling good games.

I agree that the primary needs are TOR starter, RF and DH.  I am in the camp that want Grandal, McCann and Collins to form a Catching/DH and Backup Catcher group.  Everyone stays fresher witch is needed at the catcher position.  McCann wore out in the second half while Grandal isn't getting any younger.  More rest will help them both.  Excellent mentoring for Collins as well.

[bmags]

The more we talk about this the more it’s obvious they should really just try to get Jose on a 1 year deal.

[SCCWS]

22 minutes ago, poppysox said:

I agree that the primary needs are TOR starter, RF and DH.  I am in the camp that want Grandal, McCann and Collins to form a Catching/DH and Backup Catcher group.  Everyone stays fresher witch is needed at the catcher position.  McCann wore out in the second half while Grandal isn't getting any younger.  More rest will help them both.  Excellent mentoring for Collins as well.

Grandal wore out in the 2nd half as well. His stats are pretty much the same as McCann's.  Grandal usually wears out in the 2nd half so i think more rest will really help him stay fresh. 

But I disagree w the posters who see him getting less than $15 mil per year.  My gut is 3/$54 will be his new deal.  I also don't think he gets the $20 that some predict. 

[Balta1701]

41 minutes ago, bmags said:

The more we talk about this the more it’s obvious they should really just try to get Jose on a 1 year deal.

Abreu? Well yeah, but that's not a "lifetime guarantee" like he has from the franchise.

[BamaDoc]

1 hour ago, SCCWS said:

Grandal wore out in the 2nd half as well. His stats are pretty much the same as McCann's.  Grandal usually wears out in the 2nd half so i think more rest will really help him stay fresh. 

But I disagree w the posters who see him getting less than $15 mil per year.  My gut is 3/$54 will be his new deal.  I also don't think he gets the $20 that some predict. 

The stories were Grandal turned down 4-60 from the Mets last year.  Several big market teams are actually dealing with budget issues.  It is actually why on page one of this thread I proposed a 3-60 deal with an optional fourth year.  To sweeten it for him and mess with other teams budgets while accounting for aging, I structured it as 24-20-16 per year and then the option at 16.  Total max 4-76.  This structure also has his salary decreasing when we will potentially need money for more of our own players.  

Grandal OPS second half .787  solid for the wear and tear of catching and by DHing some you might expect it to be a bit higher.  McCann second half .695 though much due to a terrible July.

Edited October 24, 2019 by BamaDoc
added McCann #

[bmags]

37 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Abreu? Well yeah, but that's not a "lifetime guarantee" like he has from the franchise.

That can be provided under the table by having meet with *checks notes* every white Sox front office employee as a proof of concept.

[ChiSox59]

11 hours ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

The question is...is Grandal truly a top option at the position worthy of significant years and dollars? Based on how other teams responded to his availability last winter I’d say the answer is no. Now If he’s willing to sign for 3/$40M or something along those lines sure bring him in but I think it would be a mistake to give him more than 3 years or more than ~$14M AAV over several years. I know many have but I also haven’t given up on Collins yet as the starting catcher from 2021 onward.

You can’t just ignore the fact that he had a QO attached to him, and that he turned down a 4/$60M deal from the Mets early in the offseason. 

Edited October 24, 2019 by ChiSox59

[bmags]

Grandal was the fourth highest paid catcher last year fwiw.

[poppysox]

Half the posters are afraid that Grandal will be overpaid and the other half of posters thin JR is cheap.  Jerry just can't do it right.

[he gone.]

17 hours ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

Yup, and the Dodgers had no interest in keeping a guy on a reasonable deal who is supposedly (according to cited metrics here) an elite defensive catcher who is a ++ hitter. Their starters did not like throwing to this "elite" framer.

As I said, defensive metrics in general are at their infancy stages league wide. Catching is even harder to analyze defensively than other positions. 

Yes, I'm sure Will Smith, Keibert Ruiz (not to mention Cartaya and Wong both in their top 20 prospects) had nothing to do with it.......

C'mon man. 

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

31 minutes ago, BrianAnderson said:

Yes, I'm sure Will Smith, Keibert Ruiz (not to mention Cartaya and Wong both in their top 20 prospects) had nothing to do with it.......

C'mon man. 

Yes, they sat Grandal in the playoffs and then let him walk because they had prospects behind him... 

Grandal signed a 1 year deal - the Dodgers could have had him on a two year deal if they wanted to move on when the prospects were ready. The Dodgers were not fans of Grandal - they did not like how he called/received a gamd. Idk what to tell you.

So... your argument is grandal is the best catcher in baseball but the Dodgers had prospects in their system so they let him walk. The Dodgers just played Russell Martin for nearly half their games.

Edited October 24, 2019 by Look at Ray Ray Run

[steveno89]

2 hours ago, bmags said:

The more we talk about this the more it’s obvious they should really just try to get Jose on a 1 year deal.

I'm absolutely in the do not overpay Abreu camp. Love him as a player, but I do not think he will get a substantial contract offer on the open market.

[Balta1701]

34 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

Yes, they sat Grandal in the playoffs and then let him walk because they had prospects behind him... 

Grandal signed a 1 year deal - the Dodgers could have had him on a two year deal if they wanted to move on when the prospects were ready. The Dodgers were not fans of Grandal - they did not like how he called/received a gamd. Idk what to tell you.

So... your argument is grandal is the best catcher in baseball but the Dodgers had prospects in their system so they let him walk. The Dodgers just played Russell Martin for nearly half their games.

The Dodgers got $16.4 million from the Blue Jays to go along with Martin. Had they signed Grandal to the same contract the Brewers did, they'd have been well into luxury tax territory with their other moves last year.

[Squirmin' for Yermin]

25 minutes ago, steveno89 said:

I'm absolutely in the do not overpay Abreu camp. Love him as a player, but I do not think he will get a substantial contract offer on the open market.

I agree with most everything you say! I like you

[YouCanPutItOnTheBoardYES!]

I say the Sox should give Abreu a 2 year deal for $15M-$17M per this offseason. Given that he has publicly stated that he wants to stay with the Sox, he would probably take that offer. Vaughn won't be in the bigs in 2020 most likely and probably not in the beginning of 2021 either, so bringing Abreu back for a couple years buys some time for Vaughn and allows the Sox to not rush him. After 2021, I want the Sox to take it 1 year at a time with Abreu because who knows what his performance will be like by then. What the Sox should do with Jose moving forward also depends on if they spend significantly on a DH like Martinez.

[steveno89]

10 minutes ago, cjgalloway said:

I agree with most everything you say! I like you

Much appreciated^

I hope Hahn and Co. are smart enough to not pay Abreu anywhere close to retail. The old mindset would be ink him for three years, $45 million and be happy. The new, more analytical, MLB would not offer an aging slugger beyond a season or two at a reasonable rate. Would another club really offer him much more?

Vaughn is in the pipeline now, and it is not crazy to think he could be MLB ready by 2021 given his advanced offensive profile. 

We have to remember not to totally blow our wad this offseason and leave little flexibility for next offseason when we truly expect to be in the contention  mix. Extending our core should also be explored. 

 

 

[ron883]

I got clowned on for suggesting we don't sign Jose for over 1 year. Look who everybody agrees with now. Funny!

 

Either give him the QO and hope he declines, or sign him for less than the QO on a 1 year deal. A 3 year deal would be a disaster. 

[ChiSox59]

21 hours ago, cjgalloway said:

loll.. so who DHs the 100 games when he is catching? McCann?  Collins?  The whole, "lets carry 3 catchers so they can alternate at DH" is a complete and utter joke when 2 of those can't hit.. 

CJ, curious what your plan would be since you seem the hate the Grandal idea? 

Seems as though you have no interest in Collins getting at bats, so I assume he's in AAA or traded in whatever plan you have.  How do you solve DH?  You just run McCann out there 6 days a week again, and sign a cheap vet catcher to backup McCann?  You say the Abreu/Grandal/McCann/Collins rotation covering 1B, C and DH is an "utter joke", because 2 of the hitters are bad, but without Grandal, you're running McCann and shitty backup catcher out there everyday, so you're basically in the same spot anyway, sans having a well above average player in Grandal.  In an Abreu, Grandal, McCann, Collins platoon, rarely would the 2 bad hitters in your mind (Collins and McCann) be playing on the same day as they are opposite platoon mates.  Abreu and Grandal play most days.  McCann plays mostly against LHP who he has a .812 career OPS against.  Collins plays against RHP who had had a .751 OPS against in limited sample (77 PA) in the majors, and a .905 OPS against in 18-19 in the upper minors.  Seems like a pretty good platoon situation to me.  

Edited October 24, 2019 by ChiSox59

[ChiSox59]

8 minutes ago, steveno89 said:

Much appreciated^

I hope Hahn and Co. are smart enough to not pay Abreu anywhere close to retail. The old mindset would be ink him for three years, $45 million and be happy. The new, more analytical, MLB would not offer an aging slugger beyond a season or two at a reasonable rate. Would another club really offer him much more?

Vaughn is in the pipeline now, and it is not crazy to think he could be MLB ready by 2021 given his advanced offensive profile. 

We have to remember not to totally blow our wad this offseason and leave little flexibility for next offseason when we truly expect to be in the contention  mix. Extending our core should also be explored. 

If it were up to me, 2/$25M would be my take it leave it offer.  I would be OK with 2/$30M and a team option for a third year, and realistically I think that he is the best we can hope for.  Anything over $15M AAV or 2 years is crazy.  But the Sox are a loyal org, and I worry they'll pay him more than he'd get on the open market. 

To be clear, I have no issues whatsoever with keeping Abreu around.  He's still a good stick and good mentor.  But he does complicate both short-term and long-term roster management a bit, and he needs to spend more time at DH.  With Vaughn in the wings, I just don't want to see the Sox tied to him for more than 2 more seasons.   

[TheFutureIsNear]

Moose, Puig, Odorizzi, 2-3 low risk bull pen arms, backup/3rd catcher

 

Not the sexy off season everyone wants, but that’s the “realistic” off season I see happening. 
 

Play Moose at 2B until Madrigal comes up and give Collins an extended look at DH...no idea why Collins at least getting a shot at regular AB’s is seemingly not an option on this board 

[Bob Sacamano]

13 hours ago, Buehrle>Wood said:

26 roster spots. Pitchers must pitch to 3 batters. It makes a lot of sense.

I know front offices cant resist an extra shitty pitcher but god it just doesnt make sense. 

Pitching staffs are capped at 13 so the teams with 3 man benches won't be adding pitchers.

[he gone.]

1 hour ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

Yes, they sat Grandal in the playoffs and then let him walk because they had prospects behind him... 

Grandal signed a 1 year deal - the Dodgers could have had him on a two year deal if they wanted to move on when the prospects were ready. The Dodgers were not fans of Grandal - they did not like how he called/received a gamd. Idk what to tell you.

So... your argument is grandal is the best catcher in baseball but the Dodgers had prospects in their system so they let him walk. The Dodgers just played Russell Martin for nearly half their games.

Yep. I said Grandal is best catcher in baseball. You love to move the target on discussions and put words in peoples mouths - you do it consistently on every post. Would have been a nice $100 to take off you on our playoff bet that you backed out of. 

Grandal fits the White Sox, just as he did with the Brewers and Mets this past offseason. He's not a world beater, however the Sox do not go after Gerrit Cole, Hapers, Macahados, Rendon's of the world. We'll never get those guys. With this being a "realistic" offseason thread.... Grandal is about the top of talent pool the Sox will acquire via FA. I would easily sign him without thinking twice and send McCann off to no mans land. 

Here are the Sox worth rostering and caring about in tiers:

Tier 1 : Giolito, Kopech, Robert, Eloy, Madrigal, Cease, Moncada

Tier 2 : Anderson, Abreu, Lopez

Tier 3: don't care about any other sox player enough. they are very replaceable. 

 

The job of the Sox FO is to add a TOR pitcher into Tier 1 and then fill tier 2 with a bunch of FA. Grandal would make Tier 2. We then need a Tier 2 RF and DH as well. I expect the Sox to never come close to signing a TOR pitcher via FA. I do however epxect them to sell off a bunch of the farm in 2021 or 2022 to acquire a controllable starter like Cole or Quintana.

 

[wsox05]

8 minutes ago, BrianAnderson said:

Yep. I said Grandal is best catcher in baseball. You love to move the target on discussions and put words in peoples mouths - you do it consistently on every post. Would have been a nice $100 to take off you on our playoff bet that you backed out of. 

Grandal fits the White Sox, just as he did with the Brewers and Mets this past offseason. He's not a world beater, however the Sox do not go after Gerrit Cole, Hapers, Macahados, Rendon's of the world. We'll never get those guys. With this being a "realistic" offseason thread.... Grandal is about the top of talent pool the Sox will acquire via FA. I would easily sign him without thinking twice and send McCann off to no mans land. 

Here are the Sox worth rostering and caring about in tiers:

Tier 1 : Giolito, Kopech, Robert, Eloy, Madrigal, Cease, Moncada

Tier 2 : Anderson, Abreu, Lopez

Tier 3: don't care about any other sox player enough. they are very replaceable. 

 

The job of the Sox FO is to add a TOR pitcher into Tier 1 and then fill tier 2 with a bunch of FA. Grandal would make Tier 2. We then need a Tier 2 RF and DH as well. I expect the Sox to never come close to signing a TOR pitcher via FA. I do however epxect them to sell off a bunch of the farm in 2021 or 2022 to acquire a controllable starter like Cole or Quintana.

 

Agree on Grandal. This is a good post.