A Realistic Offseason

[ChiSox59]

14 minutes ago, BrianAnderson said:

The job of the Sox FO is to add a TOR pitcher into Tier 1 and then fill tier 2 with a bunch of FA. Grandal would make Tier 2. We then need a Tier 2 RF and DH as well. I expect the Sox to never come close to signing a TOR pitcher via FA. I do however epxect them to sell off a bunch of the farm in 2021 or 2022 to acquire a controllable starter like Cole or Quintana.

Q will be a FA following 2020, so we can acquire him for nothing buy money in 13 months.  

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

10 minutes ago, BrianAnderson said:

Yep. I said Grandal is best catcher in baseball. You love to move the target on discussions and put words in peoples mouths - you do it consistently on every post. Would have been a nice $100 to take off you on our playoff bet that you backed out of. 

Grandal fits the White Sox, just as he did with the Brewers and Mets this past offseason. He's not a world beater, however the Sox do not go after Gerrit Cole, Hapers, Macahados, Rendon's of the world. We'll never get those guys. With this being a "realistic" offseason thread.... Grandal is about the top of talent pool the Sox will acquire via FA. I would easily sign him without thinking twice and send McCann off to no mans land. 

Here are the Sox worth rostering and caring about in tiers:

Tier 1 : Giolito, Kopech, Robert, Eloy, Madrigal, Cease, Moncada

Tier 2 : Anderson, Abreu, Lopez

Tier 3: don't care about any other sox player enough. they are very replaceable. 

 

The job of the Sox FO is to add a TOR pitcher into Tier 1 and then fill tier 2 with a bunch of FA. Grandal would make Tier 2. We then need a Tier 2 RF and DH as well. I expect the Sox to never come close to signing a TOR pitcher via FA. I do however epxect them to sell off a bunch of the farm in 2021 or 2022 to acquire a controllable starter like Cole or Quintana.

 

Backed out of? Sorry if I don't trust a random internet stranger with $1000. 

Hilarious you think it was unreasonable for me not to trust you to pay $1000 just because. Likely you would have disappeared and created a new username. I have the Nats at 12-1 to win it all - bet with a reputable sportsbook that will pay me out immediately at the conclusion of the series. Why wouldn't I bet with an internet stranger instead?!?!?! Gee, I wonder why.

What goal post did I move? My point is the Dodgers were not very high on Grandals defense - this was not a secret. While people cite hes the best defensive catcher in baseball using publicly available metrics, clearly the team (and league in general) don't agree with those metrics. If they did he wouldnt have had a hard time getting more than 60 million dollars - which was his top offer.

[ChiSox59]

1 minute ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

Backed out of? Sorry if I don't trust a random internet stranger with $1000. 

Hilarious you think it was unreasonable for me not to trust you to pay $1000 just because. Likely you would have disappeared and created a new username. I have the Nats at 12-1 to win it all - bet with a reputable sportsbook that will pay me out immediately at the conclusion of the series. Why wouldn't I bet with an internet stranger instead?!?!?! Gee, I wonder why.

What goal post did I move? My point is the Dodgers were not very high on Grandals defense - this was not a secret. While people cite hes the best defensive catcher in baseball using publicly available metrics, clearly the team (and league in general) don't agree with those metrics. If they did he wouldnt have had a hard time getting more than 60 million dollars - which was his top offer.

While I am not doubting that the Dodgers weren't enamored with Grandal's defense (they did sit him in the playoffs last year), he basically had the yips at point.  Its also quite important to note the presence of Will Smith, who is going to be a well above average MLB catcher, and Keibert Ruiz.  There is no reason for the Dodgers, a team bumping up against luxury tax issues, to invest $50M+ into Grandal with those two in their system, and both MLB ready or close to MLB ready.  

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

11 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

While I am not doubting that the Dodgers weren't enamored with Grandal's defense (they did sit him in the playoffs last year), he basically had the yips at point.  Its also quite important to note the presence of Will Smith, who is going to be a well above average MLB catcher, and Keibert Ruiz.  There is no reason for the Dodgers, a team bumping up against luxury tax issues, to invest $50M+ into Grandal with those two in their system, and both MLB ready or close to MLB ready.  

Sure, but the Dodgers still went with Barnes and Martin for the majority of this season. 

[Good Guys]

I don't dislike the idea of adding Grandal. I would be happy to have him but I don't feel that catcher is a priority this offseason.  That could change next year but right now we're bringing back a top 10 war player at catcher.  The only other position player on the team that can boast that is Yoan at 3B.  Also, if I'm building a team I would prefer to have great defense up the middle (CF, SS, 2B, and C) and get a lot of offensive production from the players down the the lines (LF, RF, 3B, and 1B).  Therefore I'm okay if a catcher isn't the greatest hitter as long as they can field the position well and call a good game. 

 

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

4 hours ago, ChiSox59 said:

You can’t just ignore the fact that he had a QO attached to him, and that he turned down a 4/$60M deal from the Mets early in the offseason. 

If he was a true 4-5 WAR talent as fangraphs portrays, why wasn’t he offered considerably more money than AJ Pollock (also rejected QO, extensive injury history, and signed by the same team that let Grandal walk)?

[SonofaRoache]

1 hour ago, BrianAnderson said:

Yep. I said Grandal is best catcher in baseball. You love to move the target on discussions and put words in peoples mouths - you do it consistently on every post. Would have been a nice $100 to take off you on our playoff bet that you backed out of. 

Grandal fits the White Sox, just as he did with the Brewers and Mets this past offseason. He's not a world beater, however the Sox do not go after Gerrit Cole, Hapers, Macahados, Rendon's of the world. We'll never get those guys. With this being a "realistic" offseason thread.... Grandal is about the top of talent pool the Sox will acquire via FA. I would easily sign him without thinking twice and send McCann off to no mans land. 

Here are the Sox worth rostering and caring about in tiers:

Tier 1 : Giolito, Kopech, Robert, Eloy, Madrigal, Cease, Moncada

Tier 2 : Anderson, Abreu, Lopez

Tier 3: don't care about any other sox player enough. they are very replaceable. 

 

The job of the Sox FO is to add a TOR pitcher into Tier 1 and then fill tier 2 with a bunch of FA. Grandal would make Tier 2. We then need a Tier 2 RF and DH as well. I expect the Sox to never come close to signing a TOR pitcher via FA. I do however epxect them to sell off a bunch of the farm in 2021 or 2022 to acquire a controllable starter like Cole or Quintana.

 

Great post. I'd add Vaughn to tier 1 and move Cease down to tier 2 for the moment. He just doesn't have the expectation of Kopech and Gio right now. 

[pcq]

2 hours ago, steveno89 said:

Much appreciated^

I hope Hahn and Co. are smart enough to not pay Abreu anywhere close to retail. The old mindset would be ink him for three years, $45 million and be happy. The new, more analytical, MLB would not offer an aging slugger beyond a season or two at a reasonable rate. Would another club really offer him much more?

Vaughn is in the pipeline now, and it is not crazy to think he could be MLB ready by 2021 given his advanced offensive profile. 

We have to remember not to totally blow our wad this offseason and leave little flexibility for next offseason when we truly expect to be in the contention  mix. Extending our core should also be explored. 

 

 

Abreu is a special circumstance and not just market forces. The owner says to pay the man so you pay him. 

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

2 hours ago, ChiSox59 said:

While I am not doubting that the Dodgers weren't enamored with Grandal's defense (they did sit him in the playoffs last year), he basically had the yips at point.  Its also quite important to note the presence of Will Smith, who is going to be a well above average MLB catcher, and Keibert Ruiz.  There is no reason for the Dodgers, a team bumping up against luxury tax issues, to invest $50M+ into Grandal with those two in their system, and both MLB ready or close to MLB ready.  

If Grandal is the stud you’re making him out to be they would have found a place for him on the roster. Rather than spending similar money for an injury prone AJ Pollock ($60M guaranteed), they could have easily traded one or both of their catching prospects for a younger, better, healthier, cost controlled version of Pollock to provide outfield help.

[steveno89]

57 minutes ago, Good Guys said:

I don't dislike the idea of adding Grandal. I would be happy to have him but I don't feel that catcher is a priority this offseason.  That could change next year but right now we're bringing back a top 10 war player at catcher.  The only other position player on the team that can boast that is Yoan at 3B.  Also, if I'm building a team I would prefer to have great defense up the middle (CF, SS, 2B, and C) and get a lot of offensive production from the players down the the lines (LF, RF, 3B, and 1B).  Therefore I'm okay if a catcher isn't the greatest hitter as long as they can field the position well and call a good game. 

 

Numerous arguments have been made to suggest that McCann's hot first half was largely a fluke and you cannot expect him to come close to repeating those numbers again. 

If you are content with the 2017 Tigers version of McCann as your starting catcher while trying to shift towards contention in 2020 then go ahead. I want and expect better. 

 

[chitownsportsfan]

Philly signed Girardi.  Looks like they are more serious about winning than the Sox.

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

11 minutes ago, chitownsportsfan said:

Philly signed Girardi.  Looks like they are more serious about winning than the Sox.

Because of a manager who also makes a lot of decisions that aren't ideal for maximizing runs? Girardi is not an analytical mind.

Girardi experienced a lot of criticism for his in game decisions and bullpen work.

[mqr]

17 minutes ago, chitownsportsfan said:

Philly signed Girardi.  Looks like they are more serious about winning than the Sox.

Unless Girardi can pitch I don't think it looks like the Phillies are more serious about anything.

[chitownsportsfan]

4 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

Because of a manager who also makes a lot of decisions that aren't ideal for maximizing runs? Girardi is not an analytical mind.

Girardi experienced a lot of criticism for his in game decisions and bullpen work.

He's a leader of men in a way Renteria never will be.  And while he has problems with his bullpen decisions have you seen our current manager?  Joe > Rick in every way.

[mqr]

I'd bet my life that if Joe Girardi coached the 2019 White Sox they'd win .....between 68-75 games

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

13 minutes ago, chitownsportsfan said:

He's a leader of men in a way Renteria never will be.  And while he has problems with his bullpen decisions have you seen our current manager?  Joe > Rick in every way.

I think Renteria is a pretty good leader. 

[chitownsportsfan]

21 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

I think Renteria is a pretty good leader. 

right which is why the cubs shit canned him as soon as they were ready to win.  the evidence is that he's mediocre at best as a "leader" and is horrific on field.  People are just used to the Sox having bottom 1/3 managers I guess.  Oh well, they've already signaled business as usual in myriad ways since September.  

They can win fans back over the next 4 months or lose the few remaining hardcore ones like myself they have left.  Their choice.

[mqr]

7 minutes ago, chitownsportsfan said:

right which is why the cubs shit canned him as soon as they were ready to win.  the evidence is that he's mediocre at best as a "leader" and is horrific on field.  People are just used to the Sox having bottom 1/3 managers I guess.  Oh well, they've already signaled business as usual in myriad ways since September.  

They can win fans back over the next 4 months or lose the few remaining hardcore ones like myself they have left.  Their choice.

The Cubs probably would have gone to the playoffs several years in a row with Ricky too.

also, there’s zero evidence of that. 

Edited October 24, 2019 by mqr

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

11 minutes ago, chitownsportsfan said:

right which is why the cubs shit canned him as soon as they were ready to win.  the evidence is that he's mediocre at best as a "leader" and is horrific on field.  People are just used to the Sox having bottom 1/3 managers I guess.  Oh well, they've already signaled business as usual in myriad ways since September.  

They can win fans back over the next 4 months or lose the few remaining hardcore ones like myself they have left.  Their choice.

I'm not sure how you conclude he's a mediocre leader. 

No team outbursts or in fighting

No one on the team does anything but support him - certainly he is not publicly questioned.

Guys play hard for the guy - I honestly cant say theyve ever quit on him.

I may not like him as a manager personally but I would not critique his leadership.

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

Leadership is directly tied to ones ability to motivate in coaching.

You can be a very good leader while being a horrible tactician. (see Dusty Baker as a great MLB example) 

 

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

Speaking of coaching.. I dont know if anyone else saw this yesterday but on MLBnetworks pregame they had Timmy on and Tim must have praised Steverson 5 times in that interview - it almost felt deliberate.

Basically said he rebuilt his swing in the offseason with Steversons guidance.

Edited October 24, 2019 by Look at Ray Ray Run

[Thad Bosley]

5 hours ago, ron883 said:

I got clowned on for suggesting we don't sign Jose for over 1 year. Look who everybody agrees with now. Funny!

 

Either give him the QO and hope he declines, or sign him for less than the QO on a 1 year deal. A 3 year deal would be a disaster. 

[BamaDoc]

31 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

I'm not sure how you conclude he's a mediocre leader. 

No team outbursts or in fighting

No one on the team does anything but support him - certainly he is not publicly questioned.

Guys play hard for the guy - I honestly cant say theyve ever quit on him.

I may not like him as a manager personally but I would not critique his leadership.

I would add, you have never have a player who has left the team say anything bad about him.  He is probably a great human being and an ok x/o manager.

[BamaDoc]

23 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

Speaking of coaching.. I dont know if anyone else saw this yesterday but on MLBnetworks pregame they had Timmy on and Tim must have praised Steverson 5 times in that interview - it almost felt deliberate.

Basically said he rebuilt his swing in the offseason with Steversons guidance.

I did see that.  I expect a player to be loyal to a guy who helped him.   Did you see after the game, the MLB crew all apologized to Eaton for criticizing the trade at the time and that all that was given up for him was fine. LOL

[wegner]

I've got no axe to grind against Eaton but didn't that home run make the game like 10-2.  Not exactly a clutch homer...he ran into one against one of the Astros lesser relievers.  He was not the reason the Nationals won game 2 and he has not had a good post season otherwise.  They can apologize to Eaton all they want...I will take Giolito, Lopez and Dunning.