A Realistic Offseason

[Sleepy Harold]

16 hours ago, greg775 said:

No way Zack is going to pitch in Chicago. Hasn't he always included Chicago in places he won't go via trade? We're not signing Cole or Stras. Cmon I hate to be a jerk but they won't be going to the Sox. Sox ne3ed to sign some good free agents, though. Everybody agrees about that.

The White Sox weren't on his no trade list this year, but it's hard to find a full list from years past link.

[bjm676]

1 hour ago, BackDoorBreach said:

Not that I want him but EE didn't get his option picked up by Yanks.

 

Maybe a fall back option,  once they lowball JD Martinez.

[SCCWS]

1 hour ago, Balta1701 said:

I'm assuming that the number bolded also includes the $14 million off-the-books insurance costs that every team seems to pay?

 

1 hour ago, Balta1701 said:

I'm assuming that the number bolded also includes the $14 million off-the-books insurance costs that every team seems to pay?

No.   The CBT payroll is a different, higher figure because it averages the annual value of long-term contracts even if those contracts include deferred money and also includes things like player benefits costs and salary owed to players no longer on the 40-man.

 

https://www.cbssports.com/mlb/news/2019-mlb-opening-day-payrolls-red-sox-cubs-yankees-open-season-above-competitive-balance-tax-threshold/

[Bob Sacamano]

Also must have decided the guy they are getting is a better gamble than anything else still out there this international spending period. But plenty of time for guys to emerge.

[pcq]

If they signed Wheeler, JDM and Moose that would be a bounteous WS haul.

[caulfield12]

2 minutes ago, pcq said:

If they signed Wheeler, JDM and Moose that would be a bounteous WS haul.

Sure. IF IF IF IF IF.

Which represents the five tier B/C players they will bring in not named Wheeler, JDM and Moustakas.

[pcq]

10 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

Sure. IF IF IF IF IF.

Which represents the five tier B/C players they will bring in not named Wheeler, JDM and Moustakas.

Gerrit Cole's sister might be available too.

[SCCWS]

3 hours ago, BackDoorBreach said:

Not that I want him but EE didn't get his option picked up by Yanks.

He died in the post season but he continues to hit 30 HR/80+ RBI. Not a bad Option C or D if we strike out w main targets since he might be had for 10 Mil. 

[Eminor3rd]

EE on a one year deal might make a lot more sense than JDM on a four or five year deal. You wouldn’t lock yourself into $100m for a declining player, and you leave the opportunity for Andrew Vaughn to play in 2021. 
 

JDM 2019: 139 wRC+
EE 2019: 129 wRC+

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

54 minutes ago, SCCWS said:

He died in the post season but he continues to hit 30 HR/80+ RBI. Not a bad Option C or D if we strike out w main targets since he might be had for 10 Mil. 

Not surprising coming back from a wrist injury.

[ChiSoxJon]

5 hours ago, bjm676 said:

 

Maybe a fall back option,  once they lowball JD Martinez.

Yeah I wouldn't hate EE (although I don't get that parrot BS) on a 1-2 year deal...But would rather shoot higher for JDM or Donaldson on a short term deal...Please don't settle for Howie Kendrick as the starting DH

4 hours ago, pcq said:

Gerrit Cole's sister might be available too.

She's not an employee of this ball club

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

1 hour ago, ChiSoxJon said:

Yeah I wouldn't hate EE (although I don't get that parrot BS) on a 1-2 year deal...But would rather shoot higher for JDM or Donaldson on a short term deal...Please don't settle for Howie Kendrick as the starting DH

She's not an employee of this ball club

I actually love Kendrick. Heard an interview with him right after the World Series and he talked about how one small change in his stride made him a better hitter than ever because it freed up his hands. He doesn't hit enough HR's to be a DH but great in a utility role. Played 1st , 2nd and 3rd and a little DH for the Nats this year and a little OF last year though his OF days might be behind him.

Remember the Nats also had Brian Dozier and didn't use him at all in but 1 PA in the playoffs.

[ChiSoxJon]

3 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

I actually love Kendrick. Heard an interview with him right after the World Series and he talked about how one small change in his stride made him a better hitter than ever because it freed up his hands. He doesn't hit enough HR's to be a DH but great in a utility role. Played 1st , 2nd and 3rd and a little DH for the Nats this year and a little OF last year though his OF days might be behind him.

Remember the Nats also had Brian Dozier and didn't use him at all in but 1 PA in the playoffs.

Would absolutely love Kendrick off the bench, can still hit and is versatile

Just feel like we could do better at DH (JDM, Donaldson, EE)

[Lillian]

As much as I would love J. D. Martinez's bat, it's hard to see how he fits, beyond 2020, if they resign Abreu. Vaughn will be at first base, by 2021 and Abreu is the DH. With the imminent arrival of 3 young impact players, Robert, Madrigal and Vaughn, it would seem prudent to exercise a little patience, until the Sox can better determine what they will need, in 2021. Nevertheless, they do need a LH presence, in the heavily  weighted RH lineup. 

 

One question is; Would Grandal represent a defensive upgrade, at first base, over Abreu? If so, I like giving him playing time at first and sharing the catching with McCann and Collins, in 2020. If Collins establishes himself, then it would not be necessary to resign McCann, as Collins and Grandal could share the catching duties in 2021, once Vaughn arrives.

 

Right field is an issue, but not without several potential organizational solutions, starting in 2021. 4 of our top prospects are all candidates to fill the hole in RF and 3 of them bat left handed. If neither Adolfo, Rutherford, Basabe or Walker demonstrate their ability to take that roster spot, then perhaps Mookie Betts could be the answer. If Boston doesn't extend him, he will be a free agent, following this season. He might be worth waiting for, while keeping some financial flexibility for such a move. I certainly prefer him, over JDM, because of his age and ability to play defense. 

 

There is also the possibility of a trade for Joc Pederson, or signing Dickerson, or Calhoun. Pederson is my favorite, of the 3, because he is a genuine middle of the order, left handed power bat, especially against RH pitching. The fact that he would come with just one more year of control is not really a negative, as that would buy time to see if one of our prospects emerges as a viable right field option. The front office would not have to make a big financial commitment, even though he is arbitration eligible, for this year. If he could be acquired, without giving up any key, core players, he would be my choice. Over the last 3 years, Calhoun has been awful against LH pitching, and therefore is really a platoon candidate. The question with Dickerson is whether, or not, he has the arm to play RF. 

 

While I don't expect it to happen, my real preference would be to trade for Pederson and sign Grandal. Pederson would hold down RF for one year, while Grandal and Collins split time between catcher and first base. Abreu becomes the full time DH, while providing depth at first base, in case of an injury. 

 

2020

2B Madrigal

SS Anderson

LF  Eloy

3B  Moncada LH

DH  Abreu

RF  Pederson LH

CF  Robert (eventually bats much higher in the order)

1B  Grandal LH/Collins LH

C   McCann/Grandal LH/Collins LH

 

2021 Once Vaughn arrives, Grandal moves to primary catcher and, if Collins establishes himself as a Major League catcher, McCann is not resigned:

 

2B Madrigal

SS Anderson

LF  Eloy

3B  Moncada LH

CF  Robert

DH  Abreu

C    Grandal/Collins LH

RF  Adolfo/Rutherford/Basabe/Walker or Free Agent, hopefully Mookie Betts, who would bat in the heart of the order.

1B  Vaughn (like Robert, moves up in the order, once established)

 

Adding just Pederson and Grandal would leave lots of money to spend on pitching, while perhaps locking up Moncada, Giolito and Robert, with extensions. As for the pitching, I'd like 2 starters, a #1, or 2 and a #4, or 5. One more back end of the bullpen reliever should also be on the wish list.

Edited November 1, 2019 by Lillian

[Thad Bosley]

20 hours ago, Eminor3rd said:

EE on a one year deal might make a lot more sense than JDM on a four or five year deal. You wouldn’t lock yourself into $100m for a declining player, and you leave the opportunity for Andrew Vaughn to play in 2021. 
 

JDM 2019: 139 wRC+
EE 2019: 129 wRC+

In other words, Abreu would be the one year stop gap measure at first until Vaughn gets here, and EE would be the one year stop gap until Abreu can slide over into full-time DH duties in 2021.  

Makes a lot of sense to me!

[caulfield12]

2 hours ago, Lillian said:

As much as I would love J. D. Martinez's bat, it's hard to see how he fits, beyond 2020, if they resign Abreu. Vaughn will be at first base, by 2021 and Abreu is the DH. With the imminent arrival of 3 young impact players, Robert, Madrigal and Vaughn, it would seem prudent to exercise a little patience, until the Sox can better determine what they will need, in 2021. Nevertheless, they do need a LH presence, in the heavily  weighted RH lineup. 

 

One question is; Would Grandal represent a defensive upgrade, at first base, over Abreu? If so, I like giving him playing time at first and sharing the catching with McCann and Collins, in 2020. If Collins establishes himself, then it would not be necessary to resign McCann, as Collins and Grandal could share the catching duties in 2021, once Vaughn arrives.

 

Right field is an issue, but not without several potential organizational solutions, starting in 2021. 4 of our top prospects are all candidates to fill the hole in RF and 3 of them bat left handed. If neither Adolfo, Rutherford, Basabe or Walker demonstrate their ability to take that roster spot, then perhaps Mookie Betts could be the answer. If Boston doesn't extend him, he will be a free agent, following this season. He might be worth waiting for, while keeping some financial flexibility for such a move. I certainly prefer him, over JDM, because of his age and ability to play defense. 

 

There is also the possibility of a trade for Joc Pederson, or signing Dickerson, or Calhoun. Pederson is my favorite, of the 3, because he is a genuine middle of the order, left handed power bat, especially against RH pitching. The fact that he would come with just one more year of control is not really a negative, as that would buy time to see if one of our prospects emerges as a viable right field option. The front office would not have to make a big financial commitment, even though he is arbitration eligible, for this year. If he could be acquired, without giving up any key, core players, he would be my choice. Over the last 3 years, Calhoun has been awful against LH pitching, and therefore is really a platoon candidate. The question with Dickerson is whether, or not, he has the arm to play RF. 

 

While I don't expect it to happen, my real preference would be to trade for Pederson and sign Grandal. Pederson would hold down RF for one year, while Grandal and Collins split time between catcher and first base. Abreu becomes the full time DH, while providing depth at first base, in case of an injury. 

 

2020

2B Madrigal

SS Anderson

LF  Eloy

3B  Moncada LH

DH  Abreu

RF  Pederson LH

CF  Robert (eventually bats much higher in the order)

1B  Grandal LH/Collins LH

C   McCann/Grandal LH/Collins LH

 

2021 Once Vaughn arrives, Grandal moves to primary catcher and, if Collins establishes himself as a Major League catcher, McCann is not resigned:

 

2B Madrigal

SS Anderson

LF  Eloy

3B  Moncada LH

CF  Robert

DH  Abreu

C    Grandal/Collins LH

RF  Adolfo/Rutherford/Basabe/Walker or Free Agent, hopefully Mookie Betts, who would bat in the heart of the order.

1B  Vaughn (like Robert, moves up in the order, once established)

 

Adding just Pederson and Grandal would leave lots of money to spend on pitching, while perhaps locking up Moncada, Giolito and Robert, with extensions. As for the pitching, I'd like 2 starters, a #1, or 2 and a #4, or 5. One more back end of the bullpen reliever should also be on the wish list.

The day when they outbid everyone in the market and award Betts with a contract almost five times bigger than the current record for the franchise will be a day worth celebrating...but not the way this particular organization has operated since the Albert Belle contract over two decades ago now.

Everything else I pretty much agree with, except for it being so easy to pick up the likes of Pederson or Nimmo in trades that help two franchises in “win now” mode.

For Pederson, it would likely be Bummer, Fulmer and at least one of those high bust risk minor league outfield prospects.  We’re not going to come away unscathed.

Edited November 1, 2019 by caulfield12

[Balta1701]

1 hour ago, Thad Bosley said:

In other words, Abreu would be the one year stop gap measure at first until Vaughn gets here, and EE would be the one year stop gap until Abreu can slide over into full-time DH duties in 2021.  

 Makes a lot of sense to me!

While Encarnacion has been a better hitter than Moustakas, if you're looking for a short term version of that, Moustakas still offers several benefits: he can play the field and is more flexible than Encarnacion (so you don't necessarily need Sanchez on the bench), he's left handed which we really do need, and he's younger so hopefully the odds of a cliff in the near future are lower.

[Lillian]

"Caulfield", I would be ok with Fry, Fulmer and someone like Walker, but not Bummer. If that wouldn't get it done, for one year of Pederson, then I'd pass.

Edited November 1, 2019 by Lillian

[Lillian]

3 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

While Encarnacion has been a better hitter than Moustakas, if you're looking for a short term version of that, Moustakas still offers several benefits: he can play the field and is more flexible than Encarnacion (so you don't necessarily need Sanchez on the bench), he's left handed which we really do need, and he's younger so hopefully the odds of a cliff in the near future are lower.

I also like Moustakas, but he really should be at 3RD. If he plays any other position, he's probably more suitable to become a first baseman. He really isn't suited for 2ND, although he played there all last season. I'm just not ready to move Moncada off of 3RD. 

[caulfield12]

3 minutes ago, Lillian said:

"Caulfield", I would be ok with Fry, Fulmer and someone like Walker, but not Bummer. If that wouldn't get it done, for one year of Pederson, then I'd pass.

That’s a lot closer to what Hahn would realistically part with.

It does make sense, if they want to create space for Verdugo full time and save some money on their payroll for other areas of need, like the bullpen or back end of the rotation.

[caulfield12]

Just now, Lillian said:

I also like Moustakas, but he really should be at 3RD. If he plays any other position, he's probably more suitable to become a first baseman. He really isn't suited for 2ND, although he played there all last season. I'm just not ready to move Moncada off of 3RD. 

Except his defensive rankings for 40+ games were surprisingly solid.

He would play more first after Madrigal arrives, Moncada will get hurt at least once or twice and there’s also DH and potentially a corner OF spot if he’s willing.  That might be pushing it, as he’s more first step quick like a Crede than someone possessing the type of speed for even a corner.

But that still gives him four realist spots out of nine.

[Lillian]

3 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

That’s a lot closer to what Hahn would realistically part with.

It does make sense, if they want to create space for Verdugo full time and save some money on their payroll for other areas of need, like the bullpen or back end of the rotation.

The Dodgers have their 3 outfielders in Verdugo, Bellinger and Pollock. Pederson is expendable. What do you expect that he will get, in his final year of arbitration?

[wegner]

8 minutes ago, Lillian said:

"Caulfield", I would be ok with Fry, Fulmer and someone like Walker, but not Bummer. If that wouldn't get it done, for one year of Pederson, then I'd pass.

Honestly, I don't understand the point of trading away assets for a 1 year rental.  Use the money that is going to be spent on a short term free agent until we see what we have in our OF prospects.  My problem is that I have been a big fan of Steele Walker for awhile and many posters here just throw him in as one of the pieces of a trade.  That being said, I respect your opinion.  I just think we should spend the $, mostly on pitching, this year.  Pederson will be there next year in free agency if we want him then.

[Lillian]

15 minutes ago, wegner said:

Honestly, I don't understand the point of trading away assets for a 1 year rental.  Use the money that is going to be spent on a short term free agent until we see what we have in our OF prospects.  My problem is that I have been a big fan of Steele Walker for awhile and many posters here just throw him in as one of the pieces of a trade.  That being said, I respect your opinion.  I just think we should spend the $, mostly on pitching, this year.  Pederson will be there next year in free agency if we want him then.

That is a valid point. The problem is that there just aren't any good left handed, right fielders, in this year's free agent class. You know me, I'm dead set on finding some lineup balance, with the 2 open spots, in our offense.  If they sign Grandal, I suppose that they could try to get buy, until 2021, as you suggest. 

[wegner]

10 minutes ago, Lillian said:

That is a valid point. The problem is that there just aren't any good left handed, right fielders, in this year's free agent class. You know me, I'm dead set on finding some lineup balance, with the 2 open spots, in our offense.  If they sign Grandal, I suppose that they could try to get buy, until 2021, as you suggest. 

Yep, slim pickings with the left handed OF on the free agent market.  I do like the balance you crave as well.  If we do sign Grandal, I expect the Sox to go after Puig (hopefully on a short term deal) for RF.  No matter what, we need to spend $ on pitching this offseason.  I agree with you that we need to target 2 starting pitchers this off season. 

Edited November 1, 2019 by wegner