A Realistic Offseason

[bmags]

9 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

All fair points, just think he’ll require a multi-year deal and I’d rather not make that commitment to player I don’t view as an ideal fit.  On a one year deal, I’d be far more open to it because at least this year he could play a month at 2B, but even then guys like Kendrick & Gennett may be able to fill a similar role for even cheeper.

Yeah I agree.

I think it will be okay to play market so long as they prioritize some high upgrade players and do what it takes to get them.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

3 minutes ago, BamaDoc said:

Cali, along the same lines, do you expect Milwaukee to lose both Grandal and Moustakas?  Obviously, Grandal is my number one target back on page one but you make a compelling argument for Moose.  I think it may be hard to sell him on a multi positional role when some teams can offer full time work at one position.  If Texas doesn't get Rendon, I could see him there.

I think both will test the Free agency waters . I mean Grandal bet on himself explicitly for that very purpose by taking the 1 year deal . Moose has been hosed by Free agency but by showing he's capable of playing 47 games at 2nd base now added to his resume he's increased his value, His value is tied to that so to think he'll be primarily tied to one particular position, he becomes the same guy who couldn't get good deals as a FA in the past. I think any free agent could resign with their former team if the offer is right but you can't really be too concerned with that. You just put your best offer out there and let the chips fall where they may.

At this point as much as I like Grandal I could see a very daunting task for the Sox in signing a lot of free agents that expand payroll too quickly and leave Collins out of the mix.  Grandal might be a luxury especially since he seems to think of himself as the standard bearer for catchers getting their worth , If he's expecting $20M a year that's money that could go towards pitching either in the bullpen or to increase offers to starting pitching.

[Jerksticks]

There’s no way anybody can convince me Moose is a good second baseman.  He’s huge.  I haven’t seen him play 2B, so I don’t have any data I’ll admit, but cmon.  This dude is not a middle infielder.   I find the idea of his defense there being even passable as quite the leap.  
 

We don’t need a low OBP third baseman- we have a budding superstar there.  DH and rotational fill-in?  I dunno, maybe?  Can’t we do better? 

[Chicago White Sox]

39 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

You think OBP is our #1 priority ? Really? Yea its up there but surely it's pitching and power . You don't think .845 OPS is good enough to play DH ? Again sorry , really ? Maybe you better start remembering how many AB's were given to ALonso and AJ Reed Palka etc who occupied DH last year. Here you have one of the most consistent power hitting guys who can hit both righties and lefties fill in at 3 positions in the field, a huge hedge against injuries and under performance and he's not a fit ?

I think OBP is without question our #1 priority on the offensive side of things.  Baseball is often viewed in silos where we say things like “this guy is worth x wins” when in reality context matters.  IMO, adding high OBP guys will provide far greater synergies than simply adding more power.  That’s why I’d love to add Grandal, because he solves that need in addition to lineup balance.

And don’t get me wrong, adding more power will no doubt be important for us this offseason, but that should be relatively easy to find at DH & RF in the juiced ball era.  Hell, if we don’t want to spend $20M+ on JDM, I’d rather go with Encarnacion for a year and invest my savings elsewhere.  Depth is important, but so is filling all our massive holes with the most impactful players possible.  I’m just not overly excited about adding a guy who’s been roughly ~10% above league average as our primary DH on a multi-year deal, especially when he won’t address the team’s OBP problem.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

1 hour ago, Jerksticks said:

There’s no way anybody can convince me Moose is a good second baseman.  He’s huge.  I haven’t seen him play 2B, so I don’t have any data I’ll admit, but cmon.  This dude is not a middle infielder.   I find the idea of his defense there being even passable as quite the leap.  
 

We don’t need a low OBP third baseman- we have a budding superstar there.  DH and rotational fill-in?  I dunno, maybe?  Can’t we do better? 

So on the one hand you admit your ignorance but on the other hand use it as an argument against him ? My goodness educate yourself.

While he certainly isn't Yolmer Sanchez there he did play a lot of games there and had a .929 OPS  and 149 OPS+playing 2nd base and made 1 error between 2nd and 3rd before he was elected to the All Star game. I guess all of a sudden the Sox don't need a guy like that.  Let's resign Yolmer ! .

For a veteran like him to even consider 2nd base just shows the type of team player he is

“I feel bad for him, we all do,’’ said Brewers starter Gio Gonzalez, who faced a cold winter himself. “I’m 100% sure he deserves way more than he got. The guy is 30 years old, has 66 homers and almost 200 RBI (180) in the last two years, is phenomenal in the clubhouse, and nobody wanted him the last two winters? I don’t get it.

“He has been huge for us,’’ Brewers manager Craig Counsell says, “and he’s the consummate guy on your team. He’s just a teammate, man. He cares about the right things. And that’s winning. It’s really special having him around.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/mlb/columnist/bob-nightengale/2019/06/18/mike-moustakas-brewers-free-agency-all-star/1485238001/

Edited November 2, 2019 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

26 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

I think OBP is without question our #1 priority on the offensive side of things.  Baseball is often viewed in silos where we say things like “this guy is worth x wins” when in reality context matters.  IMO, adding high OBP guys will provide far greater synergies than simply adding more power.  That’s why I’d love to add Grandal, because he solves that need in addition to lineup balance.

And don’t get me wrong, adding more power will no doubt be important for us this offseason, but that should be relatively easy to find at DH & RF in the juiced ball era.  Hell, if we don’t want to spend $20M+ on JDM, I’d rather go with Encarnacion for a year and invest my savings elsewhere.  Depth is important, but so is filling all our massive holes with the most impactful players possible.  I’m just not overly excited about adding a guy who’s been roughly ~10% above league average as our primary DH on a multi-year deal, especially when he won’t address the team’s OBP problem.

Guess we have different goals in mind . I'm trying to fill as many holes in the lineup as possible as efficiently as possible leaving the big dollars for the pitching. I'd be thrilled to have 7 guys in the lineup  if you count McCann capable of 20 HR's many of whom are capable of 30 and even 2 capable of 40.

Yea I'd love guys on base so the power guys can knock them in but when you need a run I'd rather have 1 HR then 2 walks and a single with a DP between them producing no runs. This is the HR era . If you have a couple of guys who can hit .300 like Timmy , Dickerson and Eloy or even Madrigal  I'm good with a .325 OBP from a guy who can mash 35 HR's and back up 3 positions. You can't build a perfect team that allows the young guys room to grow get OBP and power and starting and relief pitching all in one off season for cheap so I sacrificed a bit of OBP  for payroll and pitching considerations. It's not perfect but what plan really is?. The Sox just don't have the payroll or the ability to sign 6 or 7 free agents with so many being repped by Boras. This is as realistic as i can get

I think it's a good enough plan to get the Sox over .500 and even to possibly get them into the playoffs if Robert and Madrigal can play well and the pitching they add can produce along with marked improvement from the young starting pitching but that s asking a lot to go right . You give the team a chance to get back Rodon and Dunning and give Collins AB's to see if he can be that OBP/power guy and give the OF prospects one more year to see if anyone can step up. The Sox will not be a finished product in 2020 nor a likely playoff team so finishing touches can be added later or even at the All Star break if the team is surprisingly good. but realistically 2021 is the target.

[pcq]

As soon as Game 7 ended Cole was wearing a Boras hat and announced he was an ex-employee. Sounds like he is determined to move on from Houston Texas. 

[ron883]

Just now, pcq said:

As soon as Game 7 ended Cole was wearing a Boras hat and announced he was an ex-employee. Sounds like he is determined to move on from Houston Texas. 

I thought that was pretty strange. Came across as a bit of a jagoff to me

[Eminor3rd]

13 hours ago, Flash said:

The idea would be to land Tauchman. Thats the only reason to take on Happs salary (or most of it). The exact WS pieces are fungible but after Sanchez, Yankees are thin (Romine FA?) at catcher and 1B is unclear now that EE non-tendered and Bird out of the picture. Collins might be very attractive to them. 

If they are freeing up money, that presumably includes letting Gardner go to free agency. Given how injury prone all of their outfielders have been, if Gardner goes, they NEED Tauchman, because like Gardner, he can fake CF in a pinch much better than Frazier can.

Catcher isn't really unclear -- it's Gary Sanchez and Kyle Higashioka, if Romine isn't resigned

First base isn't really unclear -- it's Luke Voit and Mike Ford.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

2 hours ago, Chicago White Sox said:

All fair points, just think he’ll require a multi-year deal and I’d rather not make that commitment to player I don’t view as an ideal fit.  On a one year deal, I’d be far more open to it because at least this year he could play a month at 2B, but even then guys like Kendrick & Gennett may be able to fill a similar role for even cheeper.

While I'd love to have Grandal I don't see him as an ideal fit like you do. How much payroll do you see the Sox adding this year? Then figure pitching if all goes right could add $40 AAV or higher when you consider the bullpen too. That puts you above $100M payroll and you haven't added Grandal, RF, DH or added the bench piece you also want. You've also committed a hell of a lot to payroll and perhaps forced the Sox into making a trade for a RF and by adding  Grandal and Encarnacion forced Collins back down to the minors where we learn nothing more about him.

[Chicago White Sox]

16 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

While I'd love to have Grandal I don't see him as an ideal fit like you do. How much payroll do you see the Sox adding this year? Then figure pitching if all goes right could add $40 AAV or higher when you consider the bullpen too. That puts you above $100M payroll and you haven't added Grandal, RF, DH or added the bench piece you also want. You've also committed a hell of a lot to payroll and perhaps forced the Sox into making a trade for a RF and by adding  Grandal and Encarnacion forced Collins back down to the minors where we learn nothing more about him.

I fully expect a payroll in the $130M to $140M range if they’re able to land their primary targets.  With that assumption, my realistic offseason would be adding Grandal, Wheeler, a quality reliever, a swing-man, and then trading for a RF.  If money permits, I’d love to add a bench piece, but I’d prioritize the other needs.  I’d play Grandal 100 games at catcher and another 60 at 1B/DH.  McCann would get the other 60 starts at catcher, primarily playing against LHP (which he dominates) and when Giolito starts.  Collins would primarily be a 1B/DH and get 100 or so starts, mostly against RHP (which I believe he can hit at the major league level).  I think it’s important to see what we have in Zack as his combo of plate discipline & raw power is very intriguing to me and he flashed enough down the stretch IMO to warrant an extended look.  Encarnacion would be an interesting, fairly affordable alternative at DH, but I’d prefer to use my money elsewhere given the above scenario (such as a Kendrick or Gennett for the bench).  I really don’t like the RF options in free agency and think we’ll have to go down the trade route.  I’ve made my case for Nimmo many times, but am open to a wide variety of options as long as the price is right.

[tray]

If the Sox sign Grandal that could further impede Collins  development as a mlb catcher given how few starts he will get . That , in turn, could lessen his trade value as well.

Then if the Sox sign LH hitting DH, or they eventually let Vaughn DH even against RH pitchers, Collins will have little use on the 25 man roster.  I am OK with all of that and possibly  packaging up Collins in a trade package during the off-season *if * Grandal is signed.   Then Draft Patrick Bailey , a switch hitting catcher, at number 11 in the first round.

HIndsight is 20/20 but I think the Sox wasted valuable time in the 2019 season by allowing Castillo to take starts at catcher away from Collins. These decisions including whether or not to pursue Grandal would be a lot easier if they saw Collins catch several more games and get more ABs last season.

[BackDoorBreach]

4 minutes ago, tray said:

If the Sox sign Grandal that could further impede Collins  development as a mlb catcher given how few starts he will get . That , in turn, could lessen his trade value as well.

Then if the Sox sign LH hitting DH, or they eventually let Vaughn DH even against RH pitchers, Collins will have little use on the 25 man roster.  I am OK with all of that and possibly  packaging up Collins in a trade package during the off-season *if * Grandal is signed.   Then Draft Patrick Bailey , a switch hitting catcher, at number 11 in the first round.

HIndsight is 20/20 but I think the Sox wasted valuable time in the 2019 season by allowing Castillo to take starts at catcher away from Collins. These decisions including whether or not to pursue Grandal would be a lot easier if they saw Collins catch several more games and get more ABs last season.

The FO and Ricky did this with more than Collins unfortunately.  There are serious questions with some of our depth pieces that could have been close to resolved last year.  But that didn't happen.

[ron883]

Sox are going to sign a big named pitcher this year, some other complementary pieces, then drop a massive contract offer on Mookie Betts next year. 

[Timmy U]

23 minutes ago, ron883 said:

Sox are going to sign a big named pitcher this year, some other complementary pieces, then drop a massive contract offer on Mookie Betts next year. 

I would bet the under on that happening, but it would be nice.

[caulfield12]

This is definitely realistic, but about as inspiring as our last offseason if “Nova/innings eater” is our greatest need.

They left out TOR starter, DH, RF, RH reliever...with 3 out of 4 being more critical than innings eater.

1B is the one glaring hole in the line-up?

If this is what they’re spinning to media...Kopech, Collins, Robert and Madrigal + innings eater will take us to the next level, then it’s going to be almost more frustrating overall than last offseason to watch all those pieces come off the board again.

https://theathletic.com/1341149/2019/11/01/the-biggest-needs-for-every-team-in-the-american-league/

 

Twins’ Targets: Gerrit Cole, Stephen Strasburg, Zack Wheeler, Odorizzi, Hyun-Jin Ryu, Dallas Keuchel, Madison Bumgarner 

Indians’ Targets (2B): Jonathan Villar, Asdrúbal Cabrera, Jonathan Schoop, Starlin Castro

White Sox Biggest Need: An innings eater

The White Sox are still in the process of establishing some of their top prospects in the majors, with centerfielder Luis Robert and second baseman Nick Madrigal due to make their major league debuts early in 2020 and righty Michael Kopech now more than a year removed from Tommy John surgery and ready to return to the rotation. They made some progress on that front in 2019, however, and, as with the Blue Jays, there is now some expectation that their win totals will start to increase. There is reportedly mutual interest in keeping José Abreu on the South Side, which would plug the one glaring hole in the lineup while still leaving opportunity for catching prospect Zack Collins to get some extra at-bats via the first base and designated hitter. In terms of actual external upgrades, however, the Chisox would benefit from replacing free agent Iván Nova with a more effective veteran innings-eater who could take some of the burden off of the developing young arms in their rotation.

Targets: Madison Bumgarner, Rick Porcello, Tanner Roark

Edited November 3, 2019 by caulfield12

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

6 hours ago, caulfield12 said:

This is definitely realistic, but about as inspiring as our last offseason if “Nova/innings eater” is our greatest need.

They left out TOR starter, DH, RF, RH reliever...with 3 out of 4 being more critical than innings eater.

1B is the one glaring hole in the line-up?

If this is what they’re spinning to media...Kopech, Collins, Robert and Madrigal + innings eater will take us to the next level, then it’s going to be almost more frustrating overall than last offseason to watch all those pieces come off the board again.

https://theathletic.com/1341149/2019/11/01/the-biggest-needs-for-every-team-in-the-american-league/

 

Twins’ Targets: Gerrit Cole, Stephen Strasburg, Zack Wheeler, Odorizzi, Hyun-Jin Ryu, Dallas Keuchel, Madison Bumgarner 

Indians’ Targets (2B): Jonathan Villar, Asdrúbal Cabrera, Jonathan Schoop, Starlin Castro

White Sox Biggest Need: An innings eater

The White Sox are still in the process of establishing some of their top prospects in the majors, with centerfielder Luis Robert and second baseman Nick Madrigal due to make their major league debuts early in 2020 and righty Michael Kopech now more than a year removed from Tommy John surgery and ready to return to the rotation. They made some progress on that front in 2019, however, and, as with the Blue Jays, there is now some expectation that their win totals will start to increase. There is reportedly mutual interest in keeping José Abreu on the South Side, which would plug the one glaring hole in the lineup while still leaving opportunity for catching prospect Zack Collins to get some extra at-bats via the first base and designated hitter. In terms of actual external upgrades, however, the Chisox would benefit from replacing free agent Iván Nova with a more effective veteran innings-eater who could take some of the burden off of the developing young arms in their rotation.

Targets: Madison Bumgarner, Rick Porcello, Tanner Roark

Just by reading that I could tell it wasn't Fegan who wrote nor does it appear he consulted Fegan, Pretty shoddy work by the Athletic. It's like he read last years needs when we were hoping for Macharper but knew we'd get an innings eater . It really doesn't matter what this guy wrote. We all know their needs by now we're just all taking stabs in the dark about how they get filled and at what cost.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

15 hours ago, Chicago White Sox said:

I fully expect a payroll in the $130M to $140M range if they’re able to land their primary targets.  With that assumption, my realistic offseason would be adding Grandal, Wheeler, a quality reliever, a swing-man, and then trading for a RF.  If money permits, I’d love to add a bench piece, but I’d prioritize the other needs.  I’d play Grandal 100 games at catcher and another 60 at 1B/DH.  McCann would get the other 60 starts at catcher, primarily playing against LHP (which he dominates) and when Giolito starts.  Collins would primarily be a 1B/DH and get 100 or so starts, mostly against RHP (which I believe he can hit at the major league level).  I think it’s important to see what we have in Zack as his combo of plate discipline & raw power is very intriguing to me and he flashed enough down the stretch IMO to warrant an extended look.  Encarnacion would be an interesting, fairly affordable alternative at DH, but I’d prefer to use my money elsewhere given the above scenario (such as a Kendrick or Gennett for the bench).  I really don’t like the RF options in free agency and think we’ll have to go down the trade route.  I’ve made my case for Nimmo many times, but am open to a wide variety of options as long as the price is right.

For a guy who thinks OBP is the #1 priority it just seem odd you think adding just one OBP guy can solve that issue. Yes I know Nimmo is an OBP guy but that's predicated on the Mets willingness to trade him and then having the Sox make the best trade offer and him also returning to the guy he was the year before . So we trade assets in the minors and have Collins DH/1B when we need him developed as a catcher . He has to get his shot at catcher or he loses a lot of value being another 1b/DH type or maybe just trade him like we did Semien and Narvaez and let other teams make him better since the Sox don't seem to have the patience or knowledge to develop guys defensively. Hmm how did Narvaez' season stack up against Grandal's ?

Edited November 3, 2019 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

[wsox05]

20 hours ago, ron883 said:

I thought that was pretty strange. Came across as a bit of a jagoff to me

He’s worn that hat a lot this season. Many times. He was angry he didn’t get in the game that his team lost in game 7. He said he wasn’t an employee yet he still talked to the media. 
 

I have no problem with him for that. 

[Chicago White Sox]

Surprise, surprise...the Cubs exercised Quintana’s option.

And Chapman has agreed to a one-year extension and is opting in.

[soxfan49]

 

[bmags]

7 minutes ago, soxfan49 said:

 

Man, always impressive when a national writer can take a detailed view of your team and nail it. 

[soxfan49]

2 hours ago, bmags said:

Man, always impressive when a national writer can take a detailed view of your team and nail it. 

Although unless he edited it, he did call Reynaldo "Rodrigo."

[BamaDoc]

Interesting his #1 is also Grandal.

[wsox05]

Wonder what Encarnacion is going to get? I can’t imagine he gets a 2 year deal. I’d say 1yr/$12M max. It may end up under $10M with the amount of teams looking for a DH. 
 

To me it would make sense to have Grandal be the #1 option for the offense. Then get EE for the DH spot for a season. Then you could have this 

 

C- Grandal/McCann/Collins

1B- Abreu/Grandal/Collins

DH- Encarnacion/Abreu/Collins

 

Keeps everyone fresh and EE on a 1 year deal leaves open 1B for Vaughn. 
 

Then I still say trade for a RF. 
 

How about this lineup

1. Robert CF

2. Moncada 3B

3. Grandal C

4. Jimenez LF

5. Abreu 1B

6. Encarnacion DH

7. RF

8. Anderson SS

9. Madrigal 2B

 

Just an option I was thinking about.