A Realistic Offseason

[Dick Allen]

Just now, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

It tends to leak - as was the case with Robert - when this happens. 

I just cited an example that supports my claim - luis robert. Why cant you cite a single claim that supports yours? You dont think a team would leak that they made the highest offer for a guy?

Luis Robert was quoted as saying the White Sox offered him the most money. 

One question is obvious, if the Sox don’t have to offer the most money, why aren’t they bringing in better players?

[mqr]

1 minute ago, Dick Allen said:

Luis Robert was quoted as saying the White Sox offered him the most money. 

One question is obvious, if the Sox don’t have to offer the most money, why aren’t they bringing in better players?

The point being made is that everybody has to offer the most money

[SonofaRoache]

2 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

The last 2 times the White Sox were in the top 5 in payroll they last 90 games in 2007, and 99 games in 2013. The same dopes are calling the shots.

Facts. They also didn't sign elite talent and supplement their roster with good young offensive talent. They are doing this now, which is why I have faith they will at least spend on the free agents ranked in that 10 to 25 area. 

[Jack Parkman]

Just to clarify, I don't think it's going to be hard for them to compete for FA because they're cheap or anything, I think it's going to be hard because there are going to be a lot of teams in the market this winter, unlike last winter. 

I hope they'll spend in the $ 160-175 range when they're trying to compete. I really do. Is it ok and allowed to think that Hahn and Kenny are clowns? 

Edited November 5, 2019 by Jack Parkman

[SonofaRoache]

3 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

Luis Robert was quoted as saying the White Sox offered him the most money. 

One question is obvious, if the Sox don’t have to offer the most money, why aren’t they bringing in better players?

He doesn't want to admit the Sox aren't a desirable team when compared to the other big boys. And that we have to outspend to get the goods. Thus, since we haven't gotten the goods in FA, we aren't willing to spend the most on elite talent. 

[SonofaRoache]

Just now, Jack Parkman said:

Just to clarify, I don't think it's going to be hard for them to compete for FA because they're cheap or anything, I think it's going to be hard because there are going to be a lot of teams in the market this winter, unlike last winter. 

Yep, which is why the Sox aren't favorites to sign the top FAs. No one nationally or locally thinks they will outbid top teams, mainly because of our history of not doing so. Abreu's contract is referenced everytime I read or watch free agency talk about us. 

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

6 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

Luis Robert was quoted as saying the White Sox offered him the most money. 

One question is obvious, if the Sox don’t have to offer the most money, why aren’t they bringing in better players?

Can you link the quote? All I have seen is the following:

There have also been reports that the St. Louis Cardinals may have offered slightly more money, but that the personalized presentation and approach by the White Sox (including a video featuring Rick Renteria, Jose Abreu and Yoan Moncada, in Spanish) may have made the difference - see this report from Dan Hayes.

it was also reported the cardinals weren't the only team that may have out bid the White Sox.

I never said the sox can consistently get away with offering less. I have said I cite an example in which they offered less and still got their guy; dispelling the notion that they have to offer more because players dont want to come here.

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

5 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

Just to clarify, I don't think it's going to be hard for them to compete for FA because they're cheap or anything, I think it's going to be hard because there are going to be a lot of teams in the market this winter, unlike last winter. 

I hope they'll spend in the $ 160-175 range when they're trying to compete. I really do. Is it ok and allowed to think that Hahn and Kenny are clowns? 

Why are there more teams in the market? What leads you to believe this?

[Jack Parkman]

1 minute ago, SonofaRoache said:

Yep, which is why the Sox aren't favorites to sign the top FAs. No one nationally or locally thinks they will outbid top teams, mainly because of our history of not doing so. Abreu's contract is referenced everytime I read or watch free agency talk about us. 

You know, If the Sox offseason consisted of the following moves: 

Trade for Greg Polanco 

Sign Edwin Encarnacion

Bring back Abreu

and finally.....

Sign Gerrit Cole

That would be a huge, massive success. I couldn't be happier because they finally broke the mold, even though they went bargain hunting elsewhere. 

[SonofaRoache]

4 minutes ago, mqr said:

The point being made is that everybody has to offer the most money

This is not under dispute. Clearly, if a team over pays they become the favorite. When things are neck and neck, which is the case with a many FAs, what sets teams apart? And this makes our situation worse because we refuse to overspend on quality FAs with the exception of the cheaper Cuban guys. 

[Dick Allen]

2 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

Can you link the quote? All I have seen is the following:

There have also been reports that the St. Louis Cardinals may have offered slightly more money, but that the personalized presentation and approach by the White Sox (including a video featuring Rick Renteria, Jose Abreu and Yoan Moncada, in Spanish) may have made the difference - see this report from Dan Hayes.

it was also reported the cardinals weren't the only team that may have out bid the White Sox.

I never said the sox can consistently get away with offering less. I have said I cite an example in which they offered less and still got their guy; dispelling the notion that they have to offer more because players dont want to come here.

It’s somewhere on this site. It was during his press conference. This source you cited says might have. Plus letting him waste a summer in the DR for tax purposes also helped. 

If the Sox want to sign guys, just like any other team, they better be prepared to offer the most money, The pitch to sell their ability to build a team so come work for us for less didn’t work with Tanaka, it didn’t work with Ohtani. They made a nice video for Harper, but when they found out money was the priority, they quickly dropped out. They were $50 million short with Machado. Hahn said they were very interested in Michael Brantley, but he wanted to win.

Maybe some day players will want to be White Sox, and may be willing to take slight discounts to make it happen,The league as a whole loves Chicago. But right now, they are just another team, one where winning doesn’t occur very often.

 

Edited November 5, 2019 by Dick Allen

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

5 minutes ago, SonofaRoache said:

He doesn't want to admit the Sox aren't a desirable team when compared to the other big boys. And that we have to outspend to get the goods. Thus, since we haven't gotten the goods in FA, we aren't willing to spend the most on elite talent. 

Admit? You guys cant name a single example of your ignorant claim yet you cite it as gospel. It's absolutely comical.

[Jack Parkman]

2 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

Why are there more teams in the market? What leads you to believe this?

National reporting. From what I heard, 2/3 of the teams in the league are expected to be active participants this year. They want to get Tony Clark to STFU a bit. 

Really, only the hard rebuilders are going to be out. (KC/Detroit/Seattle/Miami/Toronto/Pittsburgh) 

Edited November 5, 2019 by Jack Parkman

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

1 minute ago, SonofaRoache said:

This is not under dispute. Clearly, if a team over pays they become the favorite. When things are neck and neck, which is the case with a many FAs, what sets teams apart? And this makes our situation worse because we refuse to overspend on quality FAs with the exception of the cheaper Cuban guys. 

Yes it is under dispute. This entire conversation started because you and Parkman have insinuated that the Sox arent desirable so they have to offer more than other teams just to get the same player. Its complete nonsense. The sox are no different than every other team. They dont have to pay some fictitious white sox tax to convince a player to come. 

[SonofaRoache]

1 minute ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

Why are there more teams in the market? What leads you to believe this?

Last year one team gave a legit offer to Manny. Harper probably had two such offers. And by legit offers I mean offers they'd strongly consider signing. This year I think the top pitchers get 3 such offers. I think the secondary pitchers like Wheeler will get 4 such offers. Grandal may get 5 such offers. 

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

1 minute ago, SonofaRoache said:

Last year one team gave a legit offer to Manny. Harper probably had two such offers. And by legit offers I mean offers they'd strongly consider signing. This year I think the top pitchers get 3 such offers. I think the secondary pitchers like Wheeler will get 4 such offers. Grandal may get 5 such offers. 

Pitchers always draw more interest in FA than position players - this is nothing new. Teams need 5 starters and 8 relievers; they only need 1 third baseman or 2nd baseman. This leads to more interest for pitchers than hitters.

Grandal had just as much of a market last off season as he does this off season. The only thing that has changed is hes a year older.

Edited November 5, 2019 by Look at Ray Ray Run

[Jack Parkman]

1 minute ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

Yes it is under dispute. This entire conversation started because you and Parkman have insinuated that the Sox arent desirable so they have to offer more than other teams just to get the same player. Its complete nonsense. The sox are no different than every other team. They dont have to pay some fictitious white sox tax to convince a player to come. 

I've heard players complain about GRF being half empty. It makes a negative impression on opposing players. There have been multiple reports of this. 

[Jack Parkman]

3 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

Pitchers always draw more interest in FA than position players - this is nothing new. Teams need 5 started and 8 relievers; they only need 1 third baseman or 2nd baseman.

Grandal had just as much of a market last off season as he does this off season. The only thing that has changed is hes a year older.

No, Grandal had a QO attached last year, and he doesn't this year. Big difference for a player like him. Same with Keuchel. 

Odorizzi and Abreu are going to have a depressed market. I wouldn't be surprised if both accept the QO. Will Smith is going to be close. 

Edited November 5, 2019 by Jack Parkman

[SoxAce]

4 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

It’s somewhere on this site. It was during his press conference. 

I believe he said the video helped, but the Sox showed the most interest or something along those lines.

St. Louis post-dispatch had this.

“I feel comfortable with this team, with the people that I met with,” Robert told reporters the day he signed his contract. “I picked the Chicago White Sox because it was the team that scouted me most.”

The money didn’t hurt, either. What was Lance Berkman’s memorable line years ago? “It’s always about the money.”

The White Sox handed Robert a $26 million signing bonus, meaning they paid $52 million after the tax from exceeding their international bonus pool.

The Cardinals’ offer, which would have faced the same tax, was for less. They did not receive a chance to counter.

“When you’re looking at the overall investment it’s real and historically there aren’t too many players who sign for those type of dollars,” John Mozeliak, president of baseball operations, said in 2017 after the Cardinals received word they had not landed Robert. “It’s really hard to justify those types of dollars for any player with a lack of a proven track record. No matter how you try to equate the Cuban league or his international experience, it’s very hard to calibrate what that means to here (in the majors).”

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

1 minute ago, Jack Parkman said:

No, Grandal had a QO attached last year, and he doesn't this year. Big difference for a player like him. 

This is true, but I'm not sure it opens up his market to teams who weren't interested. Grandals $ value offers were less because of it, but the interested teams shouldnt change all that much.

[Jack Parkman]

Just now, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

This is true, but I'm not sure it opens up his market to teams who weren't interested. Grandals $ value offers were less because of it, but the interested teams shouldnt change all that much.

It does actually, because I think a lot of teams weren't interested solely because of the QO. 

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

2 minutes ago, SoxAce said:

I believe he said the video helped, but the Sox showed the most interest or something along those lines.

St. Louis post-dispatch had this.

“I feel comfortable with this team, with the people that I met with,” Robert told reporters the day he signed his contract. “I picked the Chicago White Sox because it was the team that scouted me most.”

The money didn’t hurt, either. What was Lance Berkman’s memorable line years ago? “It’s always about the money.”

The White Sox handed Robert a $26 million signing bonus, meaning they paid $52 million after the tax from exceeding their international bonus pool.

The Cardinals’ offer, which would have faced the same tax, was for less. They did not receive a chance to counter.

“When you’re looking at the overall investment it’s real and historically there aren’t too many players who sign for those type of dollars,” John Mozeliak, president of baseball operations, said in 2017 after the Cardinals received word they had not landed Robert. “It’s really hard to justify those types of dollars for any player with a lack of a proven track record. No matter how you try to equate the Cuban league or his international experience, it’s very hard to calibrate what that means to here (in the majors).”

For the record, the cardinals pushed back against the notion once it leaked as they should have; you dont want your fans of team thinking you offered more but someone did not want to play for you.

All the reports immediately following the signing said the White Sox didnt offer the most. How accurate that is, I'm not sure as I dont have first hand knowledge.

[pcq]

It's OK to be cautious with the market. Boras loves when everybody is competing for his stable of talent.

[Boopa1219]

Wheeler, Grandal, Moustakas, Porcello/Lyles, incentive laden deal), Betances, Pomeranz/McHugh

[Jack Parkman]

I'm sorry if I wasn't clear about why I think it's going to be hard this year for the Sox to improve on the FA market. I'm not being negative just for the sake of being negative. I think there will be a ton of competition for the players available this winter.