Rangers might trade lefthanded hitter/outfielder

[Chicago White Sox]

1 hour ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

But this is another rebuilding year . Just because the Sox are looking much better with the emergence of Giolito , Anderson, Moncada, Bummer and Eloy doesn't mean the Sox are looking to win now. Granted it's much more hopeful than it was last year but Kopech, Cease, Lopez, Robert , Madrigal and Collins still have a lot to prove. They don't have the money to go get anyone they want. How long is that money going to last if you get lucky enough to sign a top starting pitcher plus Grandal ?

According to most here you also have to fill DH ,a back end starter, a bullpen piece AND RF. Saying they have the money to sign anyone they want in RF if like saying they have the money to fill all their holes that way. They simply do not. The options at the other positions of need, the candidates are pretty good, unlike RF where the candidates are all not good fits.

Disagree this is another rebuilding year. We need to start going for it starting in 2020.  We may not see enough growth out of our young guys to get there, but we need have the major holes filled in the event they do.  There is no more punting seasons when Moncada and Giolito are only under four seasons of control.

[Chicago White Sox]

29 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

He won't be 25 til April and already has 4 solid seasons behind him. Nothing spectacular but 20 HR's a year and a steady but rising OPS in each year.

When I look at Christian Yelich who also came into the league as a 21 yr old for the 1st 3 years he had very little power but hit for average and got on base so his OPS+ was decent but as a corner OF he was nothing special and his OPS for those 3 years was only slightly higher than Mazara 1st 4 years.

If he is like Avi then maybe he has one great year coming.

If  he is like Yelich without the good fielding and OBP perhaps once he "gets it" he ends up being somewhere in between Avi and Yelich . It's not the worst thing to take a chance on a guy who can be very close to figuring it out. Ignoring his vast upside is a mistake in any discussions of Mazara.

It took Avi over 2000 AB's to have that 1 great season. It took Yelich 1400 AB's to show more than a little power and over 2700 AB's to become the great player he is right now. Mazara has around 2200 AB's so if he is going to break out it's coming soon.

Yelich had a wRC+ over 120 in his four fulll seasons with the Marlins, while Mazara has been around 93.  And Yelich had one season where he flashed an elite quality of contact (2016), which is something Mazara has never done.  I just don’t see this being a good comparison.  The reality with Mazara is he’s only under control for two more years and his agent is Scott Boras, so even in the unlikely event he breaks out he’s a short-term solution.  If we want to roll the dice on a project next year, I’d much rather see what we have in Collins at 1B/ DH than invest in a guy who has 2,000+ below league average plate appearances at the major league level.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

8 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Disagree this is another rebuilding year. We need to start going for it starting in 2020.  We may not see enough growth out of our young guys to get there, but we need have the major holes filled in the event they do.  There is no more punting seasons when Moncada and Giolito are only under four seasons of control.

Let's put it this way . It's more of a rebuilding year than it 's a year to think the Sox can make the playoffs. Sure if everything goes right they can make the playoffs but that's asking a lot of the young guys. I'm all for filling the holes especially pitching and I'd be quite satisfied with stopgaps at positions in need or the fangraphs projected 2 yr commitments to guys like Moose, Hamels and Ryu . Plenty of talent there to contend in 2020 without breaking the bank and leaving payroll flexibility in tact.

[caulfield12]

1 minute ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Yelich had a wRC+ over 120 in his four fulll seasons with the Marlins, while Mazara has been around 93.  And Yelich had one season where he flashed an elite quality of contact (2016), which is something Mazara has never done.  I just don’t see this being a good comparison.  The reality with Mazara is he’s only under control for two more years and his agent is Scott Boras, so even in the unlikely event he breaks out he’s a short-term solution.  If we want to roll the dice on a project next year, I’d much rather see what we have in Collins at 1B/ DH than invest in a guy who has 2,000+ below league average plate appearances at the major league level.

Polanco would be a lot closer, and Nimmo...at any rate, they’re certainly not capable of putting together the package for the preferable S.Marte with secondary pieces, but the Pirates will Pirate, so who the hell knows.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

5 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Yelich had a wRC+ over 120 in his four fulll seasons with the Marlins, while Mazara has been around 93.  And Yelich had one season where he flashed an elite quality of contact (2016), which is something Mazara has never done.  I just don’t see this being a good comparison.  The reality with Mazara is he’s only under control for two more years and his agent is Scott Boras, so even in the unlikely event he breaks out he’s a short-term solution.  If we want to roll the dice on a project next year, I’d much rather see what we have in Collins at 1B/ DH than invest in a guy who has 2,000+ below league average plate appearances at the major league level.

I already said Yelich was better in his first few years. I was pointing out he wasn't close to being what he is today and how long that process took and that pigeonholing guys especially a 24 yr old like Mazara as being who he is shortsighted at best. Is Mazara closer to being AVi than Yelich ? Of course he is but when you comapre the amount of Ab's it took for each to show more, Mazara is right at that point.

Edited November 8, 2019 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

[ChiSox59]

5 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Yelich had a wRC+ over 120 in his four fulll seasons with the Marlins, while Mazara has been around 93.  And Yelich had one season where he flashed an elite quality of contact (2016), which is something Mazara has never done.  I just don’t see this being a good comparison.  The reality with Mazara is he’s only under control for two more years and his agent is Scott Boras, so even in the unlikely event he breaks out he’s a short-term solution.  If we want to roll the dice on a project next year, I’d much rather see what we have in Collins at 1B/ DH than invest in a guy who has 2,000+ below league average plate appearances at the major league level.

Sure, but you still need to find somebody to play RF.  

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

9 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

Sure, but you still need to find somebody to play RF.  

This and also there ate literally 100's of examples of guys who broke out between the ages of 24-27 in baseball history. They could go from good players to great players like Yelich or go from nothing to good players or even great players. Ignoring that possibility and continuing to sign veteran free agents who's upside is behind them hurts payroll and the possibility of finding the undervalued youth like Tampa Bay does.

[caulfield12]

3 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

This and also there ate literally 100's of examples of guys who broke out between the ages of 24-27 in baseball history. They could go from good players to great players like Yelich or go from nothing to good players or even great players. Ignoring that possibility and continuing to sign veteran free agents who's upside is behind them hurts payroll and the possibility of finding the undervalued youth like Tampa Bay does.

That’s the biggest reason Dickerson isn’t getting huge attention...already 30, which is the new 35 in baseball years, seemingly.

[Chicago White Sox]

18 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

Sure, but you still need to find somebody to play RF.  

If we’re trying to build a team with playoff hopes, I’d rather sign Calhoun to one year deal than trade for Mazara.  If Nomar was a good defender, then I’d be more willing to roll the dice.  Unfortunately he’s not and his floor is simply too low and reward is too small to pass safer, less exciting additions like a Calhoun.

[Chicago White Sox]

And let me be clear, I’d like to aim WAY higher than Calhoun.

Edited November 8, 2019 by Chicago White Sox

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

30 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

That’s the biggest reason Dickerson isn’t getting huge attention...already 30, which is the new 35 in baseball years, seemingly.

That and his injuries last year to his shoulder of his throwing arm and foot and the fact he doesn't play RF  but it's hard to ignore that .900 OPS in the 260 AB's he did have and the fact he has become a much better hitter going for more contact without sacrificing power . With him it's once again me looking for an undervalued asset.

I just don't think the Sox are in any position with the amount of unproven youth they have to pushing for the playoffs in 2020. They also are not in the position to ignore or trade young assets like Collins or Mercedes who have untapped potential to become the next Big Papi or Edgar Martinez both who became monsters when they were 27. People may laugh at that but it's happened . Big Papi was undervalued by Minnesota despite showing a lot of potential from age 21 to 26. People would also have laughed that Marcus Semien was a potential MVP candidate too.

It's also crazy laughable the Sox continued to give AB's to Castillo and Sanchez down the stretch . At that point who the hell cared about Castillo and Sanchez when we needed to know more about Mendick and Collins. A few extra wins only hurt draft position when a guy like Mercedes could've been given a look along with the aforementioned AB's Collins and Mendick could've used.

Edited November 8, 2019 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

[ChiSox59]

35 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

And let me be clear, I’d like to aim WAY higher than Calhoun.

I like Calhoun if they decide to go with Castellanos.  Then at least you can regularly DH Castellanos.  

[poppysox]

4 hours ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Disagree this is another rebuilding year. We need to start going for it starting in 2020.  We may not see enough growth out of our young guys to get there, but we need have the major holes filled in the event they do.  There is no more punting seasons when Moncada and Giolito are only under four seasons of control.

I agree that 2020 is a go for it year.  Two above average starters, Grandal, a 2 WAR right fielder and 2 good relief pitchers are the needs IMO.  Have Robert and Madrigal hit the ground running and solid contributions from Kopech and Cease.  Need a little luck but not hard to believe it could happen.  Cole would go a long way to solidify our chances.

[BackDoorBreach]

On 11/7/2019 at 1:35 PM, wsox05 said:

This makes no sense. Your 4th OF especially with Eloy in LF should be a defensive guy. Mazara is a bad defender. 

Mazara has a career .799 OPS against RHP and the Sox have zero balance, especially if they end up with Nick in right.

I get the argument, but I have no interest in Adam Engle being our 4th OF.  He can not hit ML pitching.

[poppysox]

19 minutes ago, BackDoorBreach said:

Mazara has a career .799 OPS against RHP and the Sox have zero balance, especially if they end up with Nick in right.

I get the argument, but I have no interest in Adam Engle being our 4th OF.  He can not hit ML pitching.

He was hitting appreciably better after his trip to AAA.  We need to have someone for late inning defense and there is no one better.

[wsox05]

8 hours ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

He won't be 25 til April and already has 4 solid seasons behind him. Nothing spectacular but 20 HR's a year and a steady but rising OPS in each year.

When I look at Christian Yelich who also came into the league as a 21 yr old for the 1st 3 years he had very little power but hit for average and got on base so his OPS+ was decent but as a corner OF he was nothing special and his OPS for those 3 years was only slightly higher than Mazara 1st 4 years.

If he is like Avi then maybe he has one great year coming.

If  he is like Yelich without the good fielding and OBP perhaps once he "gets it" he ends up being somewhere in between Avi and Yelich . It's not the worst thing to take a chance on a guy who can be very close to figuring it out. Ignoring his vast upside is a mistake in any discussions of Mazara.

It took Avi over 2000 AB's to have that 1 great season. It took Yelich 1400 AB's to show more than a little power and over 2700 AB's to become the great player he is right now. Mazara has around 2200 AB's so if he is going to break out it's coming soon.

I will never take anything you say serious ever on this site. 
 

Yelich’s first four seasons by wRC+
1st- 118 

2nd- 118

3rd- 120

4th- 134

 

Mazara’s first four seasons by wRC+
1st- 91

2nd- 87

3rd- 95

4th- 94

His career fWAR is 1.7. Yelich’s first 62 games he ever played was 1.8. Yelich had one 2.4 fWAR season and the rest are 4.1 and over. You should stop talking. 

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

1 hour ago, wsox05 said:

I will never take anything you say serious ever on this site. 
 

Yelich’s first four seasons by wRC+
1st- 118 

2nd- 118

3rd- 120

4th- 134

 

Mazara’s first four seasons by wRC+
1st- 91

2nd- 87

3rd- 95

4th- 94

His career fWAR is 1.7. Yelich’s first 62 games he ever played was 1.8. Yelich had one 2.4 fWAR season and the rest are 4.1 and over. You should stop talking. 

Pretty testy aren't we ? In case you missed it. Because you surely missed my point entirely.

 

8 hours ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

This and also there ate literally 100's of examples of guys who broke out between the ages of 24-27 in baseball history. They could go from good players to great players like Yelich or go from nothing to good players or even great players. Ignoring that possibility and continuing to sign veteran free agents who's upside is behind them hurts payroll and the possibility of finding the undervalued youth like Tampa Bay does.

 

9 hours ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

I already said Yelich was better in his first few years. I was pointing out he wasn't close to being what he is today and how long that process took and that pigeonholing guys especially a 24 yr old like Mazara as being who he is shortsighted at best. Is Mazara closer to being AVi than Yelich ? Of course he is but when you compare the amount of Ab's it took for each to show more, Mazara is right at that point.

I am not saying Mazara would be a good choice nor comparing him as a player to Yelich. I am using  Yelich  as an examples  who became more than what we thought they were and how long that process can take.He went from good to very good and in the last 2 years to elite. If it's your position that young players cannot be more than what you have already seen  then it is you who should never be taken seriously.

Mazara was productive at age 21 in the majors. He obviously has talent if he can do that. The problem is he has only gotten slightly better . If you want to contend now there are much better choices but there is very little the Sox can do in free agency or trades to overcome the lack of depth and the many holes the team currently have. If any one is counting on Cease, Kopech or Lopez to be great next year you will most likely be disappointed. You cannot win with good hitting alone.

I m only advocating the need to continue to look for undervalued assets more than I am advocating Mazara as a top choice for RF. Free agency alone and trading young assets will not put them there or keep them there. It's easy for you to say as an ignorant fan to just buy whoever you want. The Sox are not the Yankees or Dodgers or Red Sox .

They will reach the top of the payroll iceberg fairly quickly that way and the farm more than likely will be rated much lower when Robert and Madrigal graduate so the farm is getting pretty barren . I will continue to say the Sox need to operate more like Tampa Bay when meathead fans  say just buy who we want as if we were the Yankees or Red Sox. Even Boston realized how well run the Rays were when they hired Chaim Bloom , a key figure in Tampa Bays success at using a low payroll.

Edited November 9, 2019 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

[caulfield12]

1 hour ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Pretty testy aren't we ? In case you missed it. Because you surely missed my point entirely.

 

 

I am not saying Mazara would be a good choice nor comparing him as a player to Yelich. I am using  Yelich  as an examples  who became more than what we thought they were and how long that process can take.He went from good to very good and in the last 2 years to elite. If it's your position that young players cannot be more than what you have already seen  then it is you who should never be taken seriously.

Mazara was productive at age 21 in the majors. He obviously has talent if he can do that. The problem is he has only gotten slightly better . If you want to contend now there are much better choices but there is very little the Sox can do in free agency or trades to overcome the lack of depth and the many holes the team currently have. If any one is counting on Cease, Kopech or Lopez to be great next year you will most likely be disappointed. You cannot win with good hitting alone.

I m only advocating the need to continue to look for undervalued assets more than I am advocating Mazara as a top choice for RF. Free agency alone and trading young assets will not put them there or keep them there. It's easy for you to say as an ignorant fan to just buy whoever you want. The Sox are not the Yankees or Dodgers or Red Sox .

They will reach the top of the payroll iceberg fairly quickly that way and the farm more than likely will be rated much lower when Robert and Madrigal graduate so the farm is getting pretty barren . I will continue to say the Sox need to operate more like Tampa Bay when meathead fans  say just buy who we want as if we were the Yankees or Red Sox. Even Boston realized how well run the Rays were when they hired Chaim Bloom , a key figure in Tampa Bays success at using a low payroll.

It’s impossible to imagine they could be any higher than #20-22 losing Madrigal, Cease, Robert, Collins and Kopech.

That leaves Vaughn and a bunch of question marks, and a good number of posters aren’t even sold on Vaughn as an impact player.

Dunning?  Adolfo?   Rutherford?   You really have to squint hard to find players other teams would demand in trades.  Everyone keeps bringing up Stiever, I guess.   Thompson and Dahlquist, too.

Edited November 9, 2019 by caulfield12

[wsox05]

8 hours ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Pretty testy aren't we ? In case you missed it. Because you surely missed my point entirely.

 

 

I am not saying Mazara would be a good choice nor comparing him as a player to Yelich. I am using  Yelich  as an examples  who became more than what we thought they were and how long that process can take.He went from good to very good and in the last 2 years to elite. If it's your position that young players cannot be more than what you have already seen  then it is you who should never be taken seriously.

Mazara was productive at age 21 in the majors. He obviously has talent if he can do that. The problem is he has only gotten slightly better . If you want to contend now there are much better choices but there is very little the Sox can do in free agency or trades to overcome the lack of depth and the many holes the team currently have. If any one is counting on Cease, Kopech or Lopez to be great next year you will most likely be disappointed. You cannot win with good hitting alone.

I m only advocating the need to continue to look for undervalued assets more than I am advocating Mazara as a top choice for RF. Free agency alone and trading young assets will not put them there or keep them there. It's easy for you to say as an ignorant fan to just buy whoever you want. The Sox are not the Yankees or Dodgers or Red Sox .

They will reach the top of the payroll iceberg fairly quickly that way and the farm more than likely will be rated much lower when Robert and Madrigal graduate so the farm is getting pretty barren . I will continue to say the Sox need to operate more like Tampa Bay when meathead fans  say just buy who we want as if we were the Yankees or Red Sox. Even Boston realized how well run the Rays were when they hired Chaim Bloom , a key figure in Tampa Bays success at using a low payroll.

Not testy at all. I just think your point is dumb. Yelich showed signs of being a good ball player. The only thing that Mazara does above average is hit long HR. But he doesn’t hit many at all. Especially for the ballpark he played in the last 4 years. 
 

When you talk about maybe he could be between Avi and Yelich, there is NO sign that could happen. He’s been a below average baseball player for 4 years and nothing has changed at all. The Sox have to start aiming higher or this rebuild will be a disaster. Any of the main OF free agents would be so much better than Mazara. The Sox have the money, spend it, don’t trade for below average baseball players is what I’m also saying. 

[Lillian]

There are 4 serious problems with Mazara;

1) He is terrible against LH pitching, and would therefore have to be platooned.

2) He is not a good defensive right fielder

3) Obtaining him would require giving up a prospect. If it weren't anyone significant, that might be acceptable.

4) Ideally, the Sox should have a legitimate middle of the order LH bat and Mazara would better fit in the bottom 1/3 of the order, of the Sox lineup.

Guys such as Moose, or Grandal would qualify, but not Mazara. Unfortunately, neither of those two are right fielders. Now, if they want to put Moustakas at 3RD and move Moncada to RF, or at first and find another right fielder, that would be doable. We all know that Grandal could also fill several roles, on this roster. The right field hole could be filled with a lesser player, provided the Sox find their middle of the order, LH bat, somewhere else. They don't need a good hitter at every single spot in the order. For example, if they had both Grandal and Moustakas, the lineup could look like this, versus RH pitching, by the All Star break:

2B Madrigal

SS T. A.

3B Moncada (Switch Hitter)

LF Eloy

1B  Moustakas LH

DH Abreu

C    Grandal (Switch Hitter)

CF  Robert

RF  ????? Leury, Engel

A lineup construction, such as that, can easily hide a weak bat at #9. The key to that offense being really good would depend more upon how good Robert and Madrigal are, which is yet undetermined.

In 2021, when Vaughn arrives, they could decide whether, or not, to resign McCann and what to do with Collins, although he wouldn't get much of an opportunity to demonstrate his progress, with that roster. If Vaughn were the real deal, they could let Vaughn play first, Grandal catch and Moustakas becomes the DH. That could mark the end of the Abreu era. He is almost 2 years older than Moose, who offers more flexibility, given his ability to play 3RD, 2ND and first. At any rate, having that depth is always advantages, and they could also trade Moose, depending upon his contract. Moreover, by then, one of the OF prospects might emerge as a realistic candidate for RF. We can hope.

Edited November 9, 2019 by Lillian

[wsox05]

I want Robert leading off every game with Moncada hitting two where they both play. I also think the Sox will have a good lineup with TA hitting 8th and Madrigal hitting 9th. Fill in with good power bats in between and the lineup will be good. 

[Lillian]

1 hour ago, wsox05 said:

I want Robert leading off every game with Moncada hitting two where they both play. I also think the Sox will have a good lineup with TA hitting 8th and Madrigal hitting 9th. Fill in with good power bats in between and the lineup will be good. 

However they arrange the order, it would look very good, providing Robert and Madrigal hit the ground running. It was that uncertainty that prompted me to drop Robert further down in the order, as a rookie. Once he is established and, if he is as good as we hope, he'll obviously bat much higher in the order.

 

[wsox05]

17 hours ago, Lillian said:

However they arrange the order, it would look very good, providing Robert and Madrigal hit the ground running. It was that uncertainty that prompted me to drop Robert further down in the order, as a rookie. Once he is established and, if he is as good as we hope, he'll obviously bat much higher in the order.

 

Yeah I got ya. But I think Robert would actually be better served to hit right in front of Moncada and hopefully someone like Grandal or Eloy. Plus Anderson/Madrigal at 8/9 turns the order over with two very good hitters that can get on base with really good speed for the Robert/Moncada+ top of the lineup. 

[SoxBlanco]

3 minutes ago, wsox05 said:

Yeah I got ya. But I think Robert would actually be better served to hit right in front of Moncada and hopefully someone like Grandal or Eloy. Plus Anderson/Madrigal at 8/9 turns the order over with two very good hitters that can get on base with really good speed for the Robert/Moncada+ top of the lineup. 

Agreed. This is how I envision it at some point...

1. Robert CF

2. Moncada 3B

3. Eloy LF

4. Grandal C

5. Castellanos RF

6. Abreu 1B

7. Collins DH

8. Anderson SS

9. Madrigal 2B

[wsox05]

The lineup I’d like to see if Giolito we’re pitching if they signed Grandal and Castellanos. (once Robert & Madrigal called up)

 

1. Robert CF

2. Moncada 3B

3. Grandal 1B

4. Eloy LF

5. Abreu DH

6. Castellanos RF

7. McCann C

8. Anderson SS

9. Madrigal 2B

 

Then you have Collins that can take ABs when McCann isn’t catching and Grandal is. Plus you still can put together a bench with guys like Leury, Mendick, Engel and someone else now that they’ll have the 26 man roster. That helps Collins out a lot IMO.