ron883 Posted October 20, 2019 Share Posted October 20, 2019 (edited) This thought has always crossed my mind, and I saw another poster talking about it recently. The White Sox are known to be a stingy organization. The idea of the rebuild was acquire cheap, young talent through draft picks and trades. That talent gets supplemented with established players who will cost more. In typical rebuilds, you trade your high end players for a bunch of high end prospects (Sale, Quitana, Eaton, etc.). As far as established veterans who have been traded, these guys had just about the best contracts out there. Cheap and under control for a while. Trading a player like Yoan would result in an unprecedented return. You could absolutely stack the system and once again have one of the best, WHILE being loaded with young talent in the majors. Now, I'm not advocating trading Yoan, but the 2nd generation rebuild might be the true way to develop a multiple championship dynasty. Interesting to think about. Edited October 21, 2019 by ron883 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted October 20, 2019 Share Posted October 20, 2019 Or end up in a perpetual rebuild as we make the equivalent of the Yelich trade...Moncada has a ton of value, sure, but there’s the fact that his cheapest years are behind him and the difficulty of getting him to sign an extension that will curb that value. The only way those 3-4 for 1 deals work out is to get back two sure things...and, if you look at all those moves from 2016-17...we essentially have Moncada, Giolito, Jimenez and a trio of question marks in Lopez, Kopech and Cease. Those guys could be TOR starters or members of the bullpen by 2021. Pitching is so fickle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Parkman Posted October 20, 2019 Share Posted October 20, 2019 (edited) 38 minutes ago, ron883 said: This thought has always crossed my mind, and I saw another poster talking about it recently. The White Sox are known to be a stingy organization. The idea of the rebuild was acquire cheap, young talent through draft picks and trades. That talent gets supplemented with established players who will cost more. In typical rebuilds, you trade your high end players for a bunch of high end prospects (Sale, Quitana, Eaton, etc.). As far as established veterans who have been traded, these guys had just about the best contracts out there. Cheap and under control for a while. Trading a player like Yoan would result in an unprecedented return. You could absolutely stack the system and once again have one of the best, WHILE being loaded with young talent in the majors. Now, I'm not advocating trading Yoan, but the 2nd generation rebuild might be the true was yup develop a multiple championship dynasty. Interesting to think about. If you're going to sign top talent in FA, you can think about that. You can't really trade Moncada though because he's the only LH bat in the lineup. I do think they should consider it if Moncada is intent on testing the open market. I'd keep him one more year and if he still isn't willing to sign a long term deal, you think about it then. Same with Giolito. If they're not careful, they're going to kill their window before it even opens. Edited October 20, 2019 by Jack Parkman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RTC Posted October 20, 2019 Share Posted October 20, 2019 Somewhere, Greg’s head just exploded. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daggins Posted October 20, 2019 Share Posted October 20, 2019 lmao what are we, the marlins? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ron883 Posted October 21, 2019 Author Share Posted October 21, 2019 9 minutes ago, daggins said: lmao what are we, the marlins? The Marlins never did the 2nd generation rebuild correctly. Sox could do it now if they were committed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 Part of the problem in 2015 and 2016 was that they had a couple of strong pieces, but they had overextended themselves so much that if they held onto their strong pieces, they were going to go from 78 wins to 75 wins to 73 wins and 70 wins, getting more expensive, and then Sale would be hitting free agency. They said in 2015 "We are going to hurt ourselves for the next 2 years, but because we're going to be competitive this year it will all be ok", and then in 2016 they said "We're going to destroy ourselves for 2017-2019 and we're going to even risk ruining our last first round pick, but this team is clearly the best in the AL and we just need to show it". They spent 2015-2016 leaving themselves absolutely nothing to build with. There was no realistic hope that they were going to get better any of the following years. This organization historically has been cheap, but they also haven't sold off guys before they left unless they were completely out of a race. They were out of the race in 2017 and 2018 before the year even started, that's why they had to sell off those 3 guys. What is different right now? I can't scoff at the notion of this team competing the next 4 years. Maybe in 2 years, enough stuff will have gone bad that we'll be back in the same boat as 2016, having Gio and Moncada and nothing else, but as of now - there's no reason to believe we won't be able to at least have competitive games in some of the next few septembers. Given that status, I'd say they are extremely likely to hold onto those guys. They won't make a decision like this for at least the next few years, and frankly after a completely wasted decade, they might as well do so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiSoxJon Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 So wouldn't this be 3rd generation rebuild? Enough already 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ron883 Posted October 21, 2019 Author Share Posted October 21, 2019 30 minutes ago, ChiSoxJon said: So wouldn't this be 3rd generation rebuild? Enough already No, 2nd generation as in trading guys from the 1st generation of the rebuild for more prospects. I don't mean a generation as in 1 year. It's which rebuild they were part of. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ron883 Posted October 21, 2019 Author Share Posted October 21, 2019 On 10/6/2019 at 8:50 PM, thxfrthmmrs said: WARNING: Radical idea here. I mostly got this idea from a Red Sox article: https://www.providencejournal.com/sports/20191005/radical-strategy-may-be-just-what-sox-need Granted this guy (named Bill Koch, no less) is smoking crack with some of his ideas, but a more balanced version of the Devers to Dodgers trade is what I want to explore. Trade Moncada, Lopez, Burdi, Herrera to Dodgers for Turner, Lux, Verdugo, May Trade Anderson to Dbacks for Zac Gallen and Alek Thomas Yolmer is traded or non-tendered. Salary with arb and pre-arb is roughly $60M Free agency: Moustakas 3/$45M, Abreu 2/$30M with team option for 3rd, Hamels 1/$13 with team option for 2nd, Hendrick 1/$6, Cishek 2/$12M Salary is about $115M still having room to play with. If you're a dreamer, Rendon would been a fun add for about $20M AAV more than Moose. But as it stands, this team is ready to compete. CF Robert SS Lux (L) DH Abreu 1B turner 3B Moose (L) LF Eloy RF Verdugo (L) C McCann 2B Madrigal Bench: Hendrick/Leury/Collins/Mendick Rotation. Giolito/Hamels/Gallen/Cease/May with Kopech and Rodon as depth pieces BP: Colome/Bummer/Cishek/Fry/Marshall/Osich/Cordero/Lindgren Thoughts: Steep price to pay for LAD, and I think Dodgers' rationale for trade for Moncada is their one of the best teams in helping players cut down their K% and improving aprpoach. Moncada could be a top 5 player under their tutelage. They move 3 valuable young pieces in Lux, Verdugo and May, but none of them has similar upside and is proven like Yoan. Plus I think they're also one of the few teams that could fix ReyLo. For White Sox, moving Moncada is hard, and perhaps irrational, but they get immense value in return and fill holes in RF and SP with MLB ready, cost controlled talent. By moving Yoan and Timmy for younger players, they effective extended their window by a year or two, while remaining competitive in 2020. Verdugo and Gallen are someone I could see RH extending to buy out a few years of their free agency. Lastly, looking ahead to 2021, Turner walks and Vaughn is primed to take over. Sox should has PLENTY of payroll left to land a big fish, e.g. Betts if they still need him. If you were expecting a realistic offseason plan, that may have been disappointing. This is what I'm referring to. The idea is intriguing. There's no denying that. This is a move that could pay bigtime dividends. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dam8610 Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 One of the biggest keys to the Astros success was the success of Springer, Correa, and Bregman. For the White Sox, equivalents would be Collins, Madrigal, Vaughn (which says nothing of Robert). I think at least Robert, Madrigal, and Vaughn have to develop into core pieces for this rebuild to work. If they don't, they'll probably be scrapping this rebuild in a few years as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colinski Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 If this was a computer game and not real life I’d love this idea. Essentially Tampa Bay do this as given there budget it’s the only option really and then strike when a core arrives together. this isn’t a computer game however, we fans and sponsors to appease. Ideally we need to grow these two areas and an even longer rebuild would deminish this. further more waiting for this core to arrive may not happen if players flame out. We have a core growing now, let’s use it, let’s spend! If it means we need to rebuild or re-tool again in 2023 or what we so be it. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NWINFan Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 At this moment, the White Sox know what their rebuild looks like. It is now to move past that stage. I agree that the best way to build a team is from within. But for any team to have a successful rebuild, it will need to supplement it with trades or free agent pick-ups although I would not consider trading a vital part of the core. The White Sox can no longer use the rebuild as a reason for losing. Time to move forward. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiSoxJon Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 10 hours ago, ron883 said: No, 2nd generation as in trading guys from the 1st generation of the rebuild for more prospects. I don't mean a generation as in 1 year. It's which rebuild they were part of. Sale, Q, Eaton were ll of a initial rebuild that couldn't compete, hence why we haven't had a winning season since Kopech was a HS sophomore I don't think we can endure anymore losing for a new wave of prospects It's go time Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ron883 Posted October 21, 2019 Author Share Posted October 21, 2019 Just now, ChiSoxJon said: Sale, Q, Eaton were ll of a initial rebuild that couldn't compete, hence why we haven't had a winning season since Kopech was a HS sophomore I don't think we can endure anymore losing for a new wave of prospects It's go time Those guys weren't actually part of THE rebuild. The White Sox tried to compete for years with them. That was a half assed, old school rebuild. Trading those guys signalled the beginning of the current rebuild. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KennyPowers Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 20 hours ago, ron883 said: This thought has always crossed my mind, and I saw another poster talking about it recently. The White Sox are known to be a stingy organization. The idea of the rebuild was acquire cheap, young talent through draft picks and trades. That talent gets supplemented with established players who will cost more. In typical rebuilds, you trade your high end players for a bunch of high end prospects (Sale, Quitana, Eaton, etc.). As far as established veterans who have been traded, these guys had just about the best contracts out there. Cheap and under control for a while. Trading a player like Yoan would result in an unprecedented return. You could absolutely stack the system and once again have one of the best, WHILE being loaded with young talent in the majors. Now, I'm not advocating trading Yoan, but the 2nd generation rebuild might be the true way to develop a multiple championship dynasty. Interesting to think about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiSoxJon Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 30 minutes ago, ron883 said: Those guys weren't actually part of THE rebuild. The White Sox tried to compete for years with them. That was a half assed, old school rebuild. Trading those guys signalled the beginning of the current rebuild. So you want to acquire more prospects that are younger and controlled, but perhaps not as talented/sure things? When does it end, c'mon now Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mqr Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 1 hour ago, ron883 said: Those guys weren't actually part of THE rebuild. The White Sox tried to compete for years with them. That was a half assed, old school rebuild. Trading those guys signalled the beginning of the current rebuild. This is a completely pointless distinction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
he gone. Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 There's only a few teams that can deploy this strategy well -- and it's lead by the Rays. Even with all of their talent on the MLB roster and on the way i wouldn't trade my spot with them. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg775 Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 On 10/20/2019 at 1:02 PM, ron883 said: Trading a player like Yoan would result in an unprecedented return. Glad you are not advocating for this. At some point the Sox have to go with what they've got and try to win win win. Sox fans are learning these draft picks are nice enough and the two major trades look very good, but still there's so much front office work to be done. If the Sox want to ever reach .500 again they are gonna have to have a much larger payroll. Time to spend and spend big time. not to trade guys like Yoan. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ron883 Posted October 21, 2019 Author Share Posted October 21, 2019 5 hours ago, greg775 said: Glad you are not advocating for this. At some point the Sox have to go with what they've got and try to win win win. Sox fans are learning these draft picks are nice enough and the two major trades look very good, but still there's so much front office work to be done. If the Sox want to ever reach .500 again they are gonna have to have a much larger payroll. Time to spend and spend big time. not to trade guys like Yoan. I'm slowly being sold on the idea. Advocating is too strong of a word at this point. If Yoan brought back an unprecedented prospect return, I may be for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreenSox Posted October 22, 2019 Share Posted October 22, 2019 20 hours ago, Dam8610 said: One of the biggest keys to the Astros success was the success of Springer, Correa, and Bregman. For the White Sox, equivalents would be Collins, Madrigal, Vaughn (which says nothing of Robert). I think at least Robert, Madrigal, and Vaughn have to develop into core pieces for this rebuild to work. If they don't, they'll probably be scrapping this rebuild in a few years as well. The Astros' other key was the ability to constantly regenerate talent out of the farm system. Sox haven't come close to showing they have those skills. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted October 22, 2019 Share Posted October 22, 2019 2 hours ago, ron883 said: I'm slowly being sold on the idea. Advocating is too strong of a word at this point. If Yoan brought back an unprecedented prospect return, I may be for it. With our luck, it would be like this trade... On July 7th, 2008, the Brewers acquired Cleveland Indians ace, CC Sabathia for “future superstar” prospect Matt LaPorta, pitcher Zack Jackson, pitcher Rob Bryson and throw-in center fielder, Michael Brantley. Of course, the irony is that the 3rd/4th guy (not likely in the Sale or Q deals) became the stud of the trade and led them to numerous playoffs. Nevertheless, you have to get TWO quality players out of those trades (think the Colon trade with Montreal, or Teixeira to ATL, the Baines trade to the Rangers, the six player White Flag trade, Cain/Escobar/Odorizzi for Greinke, etc.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted October 22, 2019 Share Posted October 22, 2019 5 minutes ago, GreenSox said: The Astros' other key was the ability to constantly regenerate talent out of the farm system. Sox haven't come close to showing they have those skills. They have the skill to talk a big game and SOUND from a PR standpoint like they actually know what they're doing. Maybe it's a carryover from the Buddy Bell days, when he convinced the Sox to acquire his favorite from KC in Teahen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ron883 Posted October 22, 2019 Author Share Posted October 22, 2019 1 minute ago, caulfield12 said: With our luck, it would be like this trade... On July 7th, 2008, the Brewers acquired Cleveland Indians ace, CC Sabathia for “future superstar” prospect Matt LaPorta, pitcher Zack Jackson, pitcher Rob Bryson and throw-in center fielder, Michael Brantley. Of course, the irony is that the 3rd/4th guy (not likely in the Sale or Q deals) became the stud of the trade and led them to numerous playoffs. Nevertheless, you have to get TWO quality players out of those trades (think the Colon trade with Montreal, or Teixeira to ATL, the Baines trade to the Rangers, the six player White Flag trade, Cain/Escobar/Odorizzi for Greinke, etc.) Agreed about two quality players. However, when has a player like Moncada been traded? It's possible his value is too high for other teams to entertain. The trade would need to include 3 studs in it, plus at least one other quality prospect 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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