steveno89 Posted November 12, 2019 Share Posted November 12, 2019 On 11/12/2019 at 1:40 AM, caulfield12 said: Odorizzi certainly makes sense as one of the "fallback" 1A pitchers: 1) He won't break the bank 2) Already familiar with the division, and successful within it 3) Gives the Sox some more experience at the top of the rotation 4) Weakens Minnesota's rotation/depth chart (don't care much about the 2nd round draft pick at this point) If they do bring him into the fold, I wouldn't be totally shocked if he provided some insight about Gibson/Pineda/Martin Perez...as the second signing in that pitching class, assuming they get another "on the cheap" for the back end/Lopez-Kopech-Cease insurance. Expand I’d much prefer MBum or Wheeler to Odorizzi on a multi year deal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Parkman Posted November 12, 2019 Share Posted November 12, 2019 (edited) On 11/12/2019 at 2:01 AM, steveno89 said: I’d much prefer MBum or Wheeler to Odorizzi on a multi year deal. Expand As a lot of people have said, in a vacuum Bumgarner makes sense, but what happens in the dugout the first time Anderson, Moncada or Eloy pimp a HR? Edited November 12, 2019 by Jack Parkman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmags Posted November 12, 2019 Share Posted November 12, 2019 On 11/12/2019 at 2:09 AM, Jack Parkman said: As a lot of people have said, in a vacuum Bumgarner makes sense, but what happens in the dugout the first time Anderson, Moncada or Eloy pimp a HR? Expand He doesn’t care unless it happens to him. What do you think he’s going to charge the field and tackle them? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Parkman Posted November 12, 2019 Share Posted November 12, 2019 On 11/12/2019 at 2:12 AM, bmags said: He doesn’t care unless it happens to him. What do you think he’s going to charge the field and tackle them? Expand No, but I don't think he'd like it much. As long as it's true that he doesn't care unless it happens to him, then he makes sense again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ron883 Posted November 12, 2019 Share Posted November 12, 2019 On 11/12/2019 at 2:09 AM, Jack Parkman said: As a lot of people have said, in a vacuum Bumgarner makes sense, but what happens in the dugout the first time Anderson, Moncada or Eloy pimp a HR? Expand He'll duke it out with them with some shoves and punches, like men used to do before PC. Then it will be over and they'll be friends again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeGetzUs Posted November 12, 2019 Share Posted November 12, 2019 On 11/12/2019 at 2:14 AM, Jack Parkman said: No, but I don't think he'd like it much. As long as it's true that he doesn't care unless it happens to him, then he makes sense again. Expand Why would this be an issue if the players celebrating are his own teammates? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmags Posted November 12, 2019 Share Posted November 12, 2019 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BackDoorBreach Posted November 12, 2019 Share Posted November 12, 2019 Bumgarner is already trending down. Taking him out of that huge fucking park at this stage sounds like a lot of bad money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmags Posted November 12, 2019 Share Posted November 12, 2019 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ron883 Posted November 12, 2019 Share Posted November 12, 2019 On 11/12/2019 at 2:39 AM, bmags said: Expand Everybody thought Wheeler would be somewhat affordable. Seems like it is trending the other way now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CWSpalehoseCWS Posted November 12, 2019 Share Posted November 12, 2019 I'd much rather prefer Wheeler to Odorizzi, but if the Sox got Odorizzi, I would not be terribly upset about it (assuming the contract details are not over-the-top). Odorizzi theoretically would be far more valuable to the Sox than their 2nd rounder in the 2020 draft could offer them. Look at their past history. A list of the Sox last 10 2nd round picks: 2009 - David Holmberg / Trayce Thompson 2010 - Jake Petricka 2011 - Erik Johnson 2012 - Chris Beck 2013 - Tyler Danish 2014 - Spencer Adams 2015 - n/a 2016 - Alec Hansen 2017 - Gavin Sheets 2018 - Steele Walker 2019 - Matthew Thompson Sheets, Walker, and Thompson are the only ones that *might* provide future value to the team, and you could almost argue that's only because they haven't been in the system long enough for disappointment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Sacamano Posted November 12, 2019 Share Posted November 12, 2019 On 11/12/2019 at 2:14 AM, Jack Parkman said: No, but I don't think he'd like it much. As long as it's true that he doesn't care unless it happens to him, then he makes sense again. Expand Guys never mind when it's their own team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeGetzUs Posted November 12, 2019 Share Posted November 12, 2019 On 11/12/2019 at 2:52 AM, CWSpalehoseCWS said: I'd much rather prefer Wheeler to Odorizzi, but if the Sox got Odorizzi, I would not be terribly upset about it (assuming the contract details are not over-the-top). Odorizzi theoretically would be far more valuable to the Sox than their 2nd rounder in the 2020 draft could offer them. Look at their past history. A list of the Sox last 10 2nd round picks: 2009 - David Holmberg / Trayce Thompson 2010 - Jake Petricka 2011 - Erik Johnson 2012 - Chris Beck 2013 - Tyler Danish 2014 - Spencer Adams 2015 - n/a 2016 - Alec Hansen 2017 - Gavin Sheets 2018 - Steele Walker 2019 - Matthew Thompson Sheets, Walker, and Thompson are the only ones that *might* provide future value to the team, and you could almost argue that's only because they haven't been in the system long enough for disappointment. Expand Odorizzi in my opinion is not premium talent and if that’s where the money is going to be spent at I will be highly disappointed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CWSpalehoseCWS Posted November 12, 2019 Share Posted November 12, 2019 On 11/12/2019 at 2:57 AM, HahnsKiddieTable said: Odorizzi in my opinion is not premium talent and if that’s where the money is going to be spent at I will be highly disappointed Expand Depends on what else they bring in IMO. If they can get Grandal + Odorizzi, I don't see how you could be unhappy with that outcome. If Odorizzi ends up being the Sox main offseason addition, I would be slightly disappointed too. I was simply trying to point out that to cry over losing a 2nd round pick should not be the main reason shy away from adding someone like Odorizzi - who clearly would provide more for the Sox when compared to the past historic outcomes of their 2nd rounders. Granted, the Sox seem to be drafting differently the past few years, but I'd rather take my chances considering the same FO and player development staff are still calling the shots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SonofaRoache Posted November 12, 2019 Share Posted November 12, 2019 On 11/12/2019 at 2:50 AM, ron883 said: Everybody thought Wheeler would be somewhat affordable. Seems like it is trending the other way now. Expand Some of us said that. Some of us said he'd get 4 years and 50 million market be damned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeGetzUs Posted November 12, 2019 Share Posted November 12, 2019 On 11/12/2019 at 3:04 AM, CWSpalehoseCWS said: Depends on what else they bring in IMO. If they can get Grandal + Odorizzi, I don't see how you could be unhappy with that outcome. If Odorizzi ends up being the Sox main offseason addition, I would be slightly disappointed too. I was simply trying to point out that to cry over losing a 2nd round pick should not be the main reason shy away from adding someone like Odorizzi - who clearly would provide more for the Sox when compared to the past historic outcomes of their 2nd rounders. Granted, the Sox seem to be drafting differently the past few years, but I'd rather take my chances considering the same FO and player development staff are still calling the shots. Expand Grandal and Odorizzi still wouldn’t do it for me. You have get another quality pitcher for that to be a justified offseason in my opinion, if you miss out on a Rendon, Cole, strasburg, and wheeler.....not after how we fell flat on our face last offseason. However I agree i don’t mind the 2nd round pick attached to him Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted November 12, 2019 Author Share Posted November 12, 2019 The problem is once you get past Wheeler (and even Zack, too)....we can pick apart all the weaknesses and flaws of the next group, which is Bumgarner, Ryu, Odorizzi, Keuchel and Hamels (just for win-now teams). So then you're pretty much stuck with disappointment...especially if all the big dogs are going after Wheeler. We KNOW that Reinsdorf is highly unlikely to add a fifth year onto a potential Wheeler contract, which very might well end up being the dividing line between signing and not signing him. It's much easier to imagine them justifying 4/$80-90 than 5/$90-110 million. Then it REALLY gets tricky, because almost everyone's going to be going after that same list of 4-5 pitchers, warts and all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CWSpalehoseCWS Posted November 12, 2019 Share Posted November 12, 2019 On 11/12/2019 at 3:09 AM, HahnsKiddieTable said: Grandal and Odorizzi still wouldn’t do it for me. You have get another quality pitcher for that to be a justified offseason in my opinion, if you miss out on a Rendon, Cole, strasburg, and wheeler.....not after how we fell flat on our face last offseason. However I agree i don’t mind the 2nd round pick attached to him Expand I still think they could add another starter, I'm just not convinced it'll be anyone you could consider top talent. Thinking more along the lines of Teheran, Salazar, or Hamels (which none of which trill me in any way). I get the impression this FO is really banking on Gio, Kopech, and Cease to be the foundation of the front of the rotation. I really hope they can land Wheeler though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted November 12, 2019 Author Share Posted November 12, 2019 On 11/12/2019 at 3:17 AM, CWSpalehoseCWS said: I still think they could add another starter, I'm just not convinced it'll be anyone you could consider top talent. Thinking more along the lines of Teheran, Salazar, or Hamels (which none of which trill me in any way). I get the impression this FO is really banking on Gio, Kopech, and Cease to be the foundation of the front of the rotation. I really hope they can land Wheeler though. Expand Salazar might be even worse than Santana...you need someone you can really count on for at least 100-120 innings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steveno89 Posted November 12, 2019 Share Posted November 12, 2019 On 11/12/2019 at 3:16 AM, caulfield12 said: The problem is once you get past Wheeler (and even Zack, too)....we can pick apart all the weaknesses and flaws of the next group, which is Bumgarner, Ryu, Odorizzi, Keuchel and Hamels (just for win-now teams). So then you're pretty much stuck with disappointment...especially if all the big dogs are going after Wheeler. We KNOW that Reinsdorf is highly unlikely to add a fifth year onto a potential Wheeler contract, which very might well end up being the dividing line between signing and not signing him. It's much easier to imagine them justifying 4/$80-90 than 5/$90-110 million. Then it REALLY gets tricky, because almost everyone's going to be going after that same list of 4-5 pitchers, warts and all. Expand I am just as leery about giving a pitcher that fifth guaranteed year, but if we are serious suitors we have to realize risks will have to be made to improve. Wheeler will have so many suitors, I'm sure one team will be willing to give him five years near $20 million AAV, or perhaps more? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted November 12, 2019 Author Share Posted November 12, 2019 On 11/12/2019 at 2:32 PM, steveno89 said: I am just as leery about giving a pitcher that fifth guaranteed year, but if we are serious suitors we have to realize risks will have to be made to improve. Wheeler will have so many suitors, I'm sure one team will be willing to give him five years near $20 million AAV, or perhaps more? Expand The original prediction was 4/$80, but now we’re all the way up to 5/$90-115 as guesses....simply because of the mad rush from every team out on Cole and Strasburg for the third most coveted pitcher on the market. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poppysox Posted November 12, 2019 Share Posted November 12, 2019 On 11/12/2019 at 2:52 AM, CWSpalehoseCWS said: I'd much rather prefer Wheeler to Odorizzi, but if the Sox got Odorizzi, I would not be terribly upset about it (assuming the contract details are not over-the-top). Odorizzi theoretically would be far more valuable to the Sox than their 2nd rounder in the 2020 draft could offer them. Look at their past history. A list of the Sox last 10 2nd round picks: 2009 - David Holmberg / Trayce Thompson 2010 - Jake Petricka 2011 - Erik Johnson 2012 - Chris Beck 2013 - Tyler Danish 2014 - Spencer Adams 2015 - n/a 2016 - Alec Hansen 2017 - Gavin Sheets 2018 - Steele Walker 2019 - Matthew Thompson Sheets, Walker, and Thompson are the only ones that *might* provide future value to the team, and you could almost argue that's only because they haven't been in the system long enough for disappointment. Expand I have to admit...that list is gruesome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eminor3rd Posted November 12, 2019 Share Posted November 12, 2019 Bumgarner is being dangerously overrated at this point. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmags Posted November 12, 2019 Share Posted November 12, 2019 On 11/12/2019 at 3:52 PM, Eminor3rd said: Bumgarner is being dangerously overrated at this point. Expand That’s funny, I think he’s being underrated. He won’t be an ace but I’m very confident he will be reliable and will be a good mentor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Posted November 12, 2019 Share Posted November 12, 2019 I'd be more excited to see the Sox make a serious offer to Ryu than Odorizzi or some of these other guys besides Wheeler. Yes there's injury risk, but you also know he's probably going to be great whenever he goes out there for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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