Sox trade rights to Welington Castillo to rangers

[caulfield12]

42 minutes ago, bmags said:

Unfortunately Hahn will not respond with anything interesting and you don’t get follow ups. He’ll just defend Paddy. I ask about intl every year 

Does anyone have a clue what Paddy's salary is?

I'm guessing $300-500,000 per year...well, at least we have him to thank for Nestor Molina, Abreu, Tatis and Luis Robert.

Even if it was $500K per year for less than a decade, he's more than earned his money with those last three, despite all the other issues with LatAm/DR operations.

[caulfield12]

36 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

That would be the person you just quoted,

As far as finding player transactions I just type 2019 ( or 2018, 2017 etc.) White Sox player transactions into google and then have multiple sources to compare to each other and see who provides more info than the others. Like Baseball reference will have the list starting at November of 2018 but ends at the middle of Oct.2019 so they are a few weeks behind but they will list the trading of intl. money.

CBSSports.com won't even list the Jones and Castillo moves so that's not a good place to look.

Baseball America USED to be the best place for trade analysis, rather instantaneously...but everything's pretty much buried behind paywalls at this point.

[caulfield12]

31 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

What years did the Wilder scandal start and end and how did it affect the following years ? Probably should know that too.

On May 16, 2008, the White Sox fired Wilder and two scouts after an investigation in Latin America. Federal authorities were called in as well, and the baseball commissioner's office was investigating the parents of several Latin players about bonuses that they may have received from major-league baseball teams.^[6] A major league baseball investigator confirmed to the Chicago Tribune that the investigation involved skimming and was limited only to the White Sox.^[3]

On February 11, 2011, Wilder pleaded guilty to one count of mail fraud in federal court in Chicago. He was released on bond pending sentencing.^[7]

On August 28, 2013, U.S. district judge Charles Ronald Norgle, Sr. sentenced Wilder to two years in federal prison.^[8] He was ordered to begin serving his sentence on October 31, 2013.^[8] He was released from federal prison on October 9, 2015.^[9]

 

the-tawdry-tangled-history-of-the-white-sox-latin-american-operations

you can google that title under Southside Sox...2 or 3 part article that gives the entire story, but it's mostly related to Brazilian and LatAm signings in the 2006-2007 time period

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

7 minutes ago, CWSpalehoseCWS said:

I wonder if that would have affected the Sox and their dealings with any buscones. Don't they usually sell off some of these young kids to teams well before they are even able to sign with anyone? Might be why the Sox don't have a presence in some of those markets and seem to rely on the Cuban connection far too often.

Hey if the Sox actually just stuck to Cuban guys it wouldn't be terrible. I mean of course the Dominican Republic produces the most players but even in the last few years the Sox also missed the boat ( pun intended ) on some decent Cubans like the Twins signing of relief pitcher 25 yr old. Yennier Cano in the middle of June after most players were already signed, for $750K and we already know the Sox had $1.25M at least because of the trades with the Rangers involving Jones and Castillo. So why didn't the Sox sign him ? They signed Yolbert Sanchez who is 22 yrs old.($2.5M) 2 weeks later; The Twins signed Cano and at 25 yrs old you would think he would be right up the Sox alley since they seem to disdain the 16 year olds. Now I might not have the full story because the 2 week difference might be the difference between the Sox having the funds or not and being in the penalty from the year before. Like I said it's tricky learning these things.

The Tigers signed some mystery Cuban OF named Roberto Campos ($2.65M) the same day the Sox announced signing Sanchez and he wasn't even ranked in the top 30. Of course ranking these guys is nearly impossible and Baseball America stopped ranking them altogether.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

39 minutes ago, CWSpalehoseCWS said:

I wonder if that would have affected the Sox and their dealings with any buscones. Don't they usually sell off some of these young kids to teams well before they are even able to sign with anyone? Might be why the Sox don't have a presence in some of those markets and seem to rely on the Cuban connection far too often.

It's possible Reinsdorf disdains the whole process of the exploitation of 13-16 year olds since that seems to be the ages that many of these guys start getting peddled to the big league teams.

[CWSpalehoseCWS]

8 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

It's possible Reinsdorf disdains the whole process of the exploitation of 13-16 year olds since that seems to be the ages that many of these guys start getting peddled to the big league teams.

After the skimming scandal, it wouldn't surprise me. Another disadvantage if that's the case - and that's not me sticking up for that practice. Unfortunately it seems to be a large part of the process down there in this moment in time unless MLB somehow puts their foot down.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

29 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

Baseball America USED to be the best place for trade analysis, rather instantaneously...but everything's pretty much buried behind paywalls at this point.

I don't really care about analysis and I haven't done a ton of research on it but Baseball Ref . for instance just says traded for intl. bonus pool money. Maybe there's a place that has the amount of money the Sox traded but I haven't found it yet but then again I haven't looked that hard . You can usually find out the amount of money traded in articles about the trade but looking up each trade while more thorough takes longer than just having a list from year to year.

MLB white sox page just says future considerations instead of intl. bonus pool money so that's no good .

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

3 minutes ago, CWSpalehoseCWS said:

After the skimming scandal, it wouldn't surprise me. Another disadvantage if that's the case - and that's not me sticking up for that practice. Unfortunately it seems to be a large part of the process down there in this moment in time unless MLB somehow puts their foot down.

Of course you can also pretend to disdain it as a convenient excuse not to spend the money but they do seem to like using it for older guys so who knows.

[Chicago White Sox]

32 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

It's possible Reinsdorf disdains the whole process of the exploitation of 13-16 year olds since that seems to be the ages that many of these guys start getting peddled to the big league teams.

See, this seems far more likely than Hahn not realizing how dumb it is to not spend your entire bonus allotment.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

1 hour ago, Chicago White Sox said:

See, this seems far more likely than Hahn not realizing how dumb it is to not spend your entire bonus allotment.

Christian Mena and Wilfred Veras from their last signing class are both 16 though. Sanchez was 22 and Elijah Tatis was 17. Can't find the ages of right-handed pitcher Erick Bello and Venezuelan catcher Ricardo Aguilar who were also signed. After those signing the Sox had $1.7M left  of which $1.25M went to TX so they still might have $450K depending on the accuracy of everything I read.

Edited November 1, 2019 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

[chitownsportsfan]

1 hour ago, Chicago White Sox said:

See, this seems far more likely than Hahn not realizing how dumb it is to not spend your entire bonus allotment.

either way the fans take it up the ass.  this is  the equivalent of seed VC money the one time  out of 10 it hits it hits big and you got in early.  But staid old JR is too old to realize it.  You invest in the kids that turn out to be unicorns and you make 100x on your investment.

But JR owns the sox like some chicago suburb retiree owns a dividend stock.

Edited November 1, 2019 by chitownsportsfan

[caulfield12]

5 minutes ago, chitownsportsfan said:

either way the fans take it up the ass.  this is  the equivalent of seed VC money the one time of out of 10 it hits it hits big and you got in early.  But staid old JR is too old to realize it.  You invest in the kids that turn out to be unicorns and you make 100x on your investment.

But JR owns the sox like some chicago suburb retiree owns a dividend stock.

The successes of Tatis and Robert (maybe he had just turned 19) would argue that spending money on 17 and 18 year olds was definitely worth it, even if you only hit the proverbial gold mine once every 5-10 years on average.

Or even drafting American-born high school players like Gavin Lux and Jo Adell, for instance.

[bmags]

5 hours ago, caulfield12 said:

The successes of Tatis and Robert (maybe he had just turned 19) would argue that spending money on 17 and 18 year olds was definitely worth it, even if you only hit the proverbial gold mine once every 5-10 years on average.

Or even drafting American-born high school players like Gavin Lux and Jo Adell, for instance.

Robert was 19 with professional baseball experience.

I'm 80% certain it's not about JR's moral convictions and more about him feeling that "young players are a crapshoot", because they jump with joy every time an older player is available - on top of their incredible tilt toward college players in the amateur draft.

As always with the sox, there is probably some deep seeded horror over paying for juan silverio and it proved to never pay for 16 year olds, but there is never the same prejudice against throwing millions at old DHs that have the worst years of their lives.

[Chicago White Sox]

6 hours ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Christian Mena and Wilfred Veras from their last signing class are both 16 though. Sanchez was 22 and Elijah Tatis was 17. Can't find the ages of right-handed pitcher Erick Bello and Venezuelan catcher Ricardo Aguilar who were also signed. After those signing the Sox had $1.7M left  of which $1.25M went to TX so they still might have $450K depending on the accuracy of everything I read.

They’ve signed 16 year olds before, but maybe the fact that recruitment now requires locking up these guys at 13 / 14 is what bothers Reinsdorf.  Let’s be honest here, this wouldn’t be the first time Jerry that he did something based on his moral convictions (refusing to go over slot because it was technically against the rules) that put the team at a disadvantage.  Again, while Hahn’s resume as a GM is poor, he simply can’t be stupid enough to not want to spend all his bonus allotment because there are no players they like.  I’m certain there is more to this story.  Your theory makes the most sense to me, especially with an international likely right around the corner.

[Chicago White Sox]

6 hours ago, chitownsportsfan said:

either way the fans take it up the ass.  this is  the equivalent of seed VC money the one time  out of 10 it hits it hits big and you got in early.  But staid old JR is too old to realize it.  You invest in the kids that turn out to be unicorns and you make 100x on your investment.

But JR owns the sox like some chicago suburb retiree owns a dividend stock.

I think this is just like his refusal to go over slot in the past.  A ton of teams were doing it and those that did were able to come out with bounties of talent.  But since it was technically against the rules and Jerry was BFF with Selig, he refused to allow such practice and put at a huge disadvantage.  Jerry has a history of doing things his way all else be damned and I think we’re seeing it here.  

Honestly, I can’t come up with another rationale explanation other Paddy missing the boat on the recruitment process being earlier than years past and coming out empty-handed.  A fuck up like that should have consequences though, even in this organization.  I’ve seen the front office make really dumb excuses for Jerry for years and saying “we didn’t like anyone else” fits that to a T.

[caulfield12]

https://www.dallasnews.com/sports/rangers/2019/10/31/texas-rangers-make-series-of-roster-moves-on-1st-day-of-mlb-offseason/

Interesting they originally want to rehab Jones and resign him to incentives-laden deal. 

Hunter Pence for RF!!!

Edited November 1, 2019 by caulfield12

[bmags]

7 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

They’ve signed 16 year olds before, but maybe the fact that recruitment now requires locking up these guys at 13 / 14 is what bothers Reinsdorf.  Let’s be honest here, this wouldn’t be the first time Jerry that he did something based on his moral convictions (refusing to go over slot because it was technically against the rules) that put the team at a disadvantage.  Again, while Hahn’s resume as a GM is poor, he simply can’t be stupid enough to not want to spend all his bonus allotment because there are no players they like.  I’m certain there is more to this story.  Your theory makes the most sense to me, especially with an international likely right around the corner.

This has been my theory since the Badler story broke. The sox are being told to refuse to play by JR so they can hold greater leverage to get owners to get in line at the next CBA, so they are using the pool of actual 16 year olds, as the top players had been signed already.

And as we've seen with our relative success with Jose Rodriguez/Guzman, players do randomly get better there! It's just the issue of constantly playing from a more restricted field than the rest of the league and then relying on free agency to solve all problems - which is much more expensive.

And finally - then blaming fans for not having more money.

[caulfield12]

2 minutes ago, bmags said:

This has been my theory since the Badler story broke. The sox are being told to refuse to play by JR so they can hold greater leverage to get owners to get in line at the next CBA, so they are using the pool of actual 16 year olds, as the top players had been signed already.

And as we've seen with our relative success with Jose Rodriguez/Guzman, players do randomly get better there! It's just the issue of constantly playing from a more restricted field than the rest of the league and then relying on free agency to solve all problems - which is much more expensive.

And finally - then blaming fans for not having more money.

From a fan's standpoint, that's pretty much the dumbest thing ever, to sabotage your own franchise to make a moral and perhaps financial point simultaneously.  

Nobody is listening to JR anyway, his pre-emptive argument will be lost on the new generation of owners and front office people. 

[Chicago White Sox]

12 minutes ago, bmags said:

Robert was 19 with professional baseball experience.

I'm 80% certain it's not about JR's moral convictions and more about him feeling that "young players are a crapshoot", because they jump with joy every time an older player is available - on top of their incredible tilt toward college players in the amateur draft.

As always with the sox, there is probably some deep seeded horror over paying for juan silverio and it proved to never pay for 16 year olds, but there is never the same prejudice against throwing millions at old DHs that have the worst years of their lives.

Weren’t the bulk of our signings prior to Robert 16 years of age?  Why was he ok with signing them for a good five years, even hitting on a superstar, and then deciding it was a bad investment.  I have no doubt Jerry hates signing these young kids for the reasons you stated, but he didn’t interfere with such a plan in years past.  I could see him saying “we’re not recruiting 13 year olds full stop” and forcing us to sign older Cuban prospects like Yogurt or fringier 16 year olds not tied yet tied any clubs like Tatis’ brother.  In all honesty, our 2020 signing just doesn’t make sense and something is most definitely afoul.  To me, it reaks of Reinsdorf meddling than Hahn being a total idiot.

[bmags]

1 minute ago, caulfield12 said:

From a fan's standpoint, that's pretty much the dumbest thing ever, to sabotage your own franchise to make a moral and perhaps financial point simultaneously.  

Nobody is listening to JR anyway, his pre-emptive argument will be lost on the new generation of owners and front office people. 

I refuse to use the word moral for this. The international operations do have a reason for moral opposition.

This is more how JR is just an old school owner that puts a lot more effort than other owners in "how the league should operate", often in terms of profitability and restricting other owners for pushing everyone into foolishly risky investments. (Hi amateur drafting and international)

[Chicago White Sox]

15 minutes ago, bmags said:

This has been my theory since the Badler story broke. The sox are being told to refuse to play by JR so they can hold greater leverage to get owners to get in line at the next CBA, so they are using the pool of actual 16 year olds, as the top players had been signed already.

And as we've seen with our relative success with Jose Rodriguez/Guzman, players do randomly get better there! It's just the issue of constantly playing from a more restricted field than the rest of the league and then relying on free agency to solve all problems - which is much more expensive.

And finally - then blaming fans for not having more money.

Good post.

[Chicago White Sox]

8 minutes ago, bmags said:

I refuse to use the word moral for this. The international operations do have a reason for moral opposition.

This is more how JR is just an old school owner that puts a lot more effort than other owners in "how the league should operate", often in terms of profitability and restricting other owners for pushing everyone into foolishly risky investments. (Hi amateur drafting and international)

It’s definitely plausible and far more believable than the Sox scouting kids for two years while in the penalty box and simply not liking anyone.

[Balta1701]

4 hours ago, bmags said:

I refuse to use the word moral for this. The international operations do have a reason for moral opposition.

This is more how JR is just an old school owner that puts a lot more effort than other owners in "how the league should operate", often in terms of profitability and restricting other owners for pushing everyone into foolishly risky investments. (Hi amateur drafting and international)

And yet he goes after the Cuban human smuggling market. 

[bmags]

33 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

And yet he goes after the Cuban human smuggling market. 

Yes, this is a good example. The sox are so in on the cuban pipeline because those players have played professionally and seen as less risky, not because of objections to the process.

[Donny Lucy's Avocado Farm]

I'll hate on the cheapness as much as anyone on this board, but let's be real here. The Sox make something out of nothing on this transaction.