Balta1701 Posted October 30, 2019 Share Posted October 30, 2019 11 hours ago, Chicago White Sox said: I think they’re just idiots who honestly thought they were in the driver’s seat and simply overplayed their hand. I also don’t think they sold that many extra tickets from their pursuit of Manny and whatever measly money they made off it was more than offset by anger and hostility amongst the fanbase. They wound up with a boost of 700 tickets sold per game this year, which isn't the Phillies but it's still a pretty solid jump. Since 2006, the only 2 years where White Sox attendance has gone up year over year are 2015 and 2019 - it has declined every other year. Want to really worry yourself? If they're 10 years out of date on their player valuations, and they think they can sign Wheeler with a 5/$55 deal and they're not willing to go above 5/$68 - the same situation as Machado - we could see this same situation again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiSox59 Posted October 30, 2019 Share Posted October 30, 2019 I really don't see the JDM fit. Sure, he'd be a great bat to have in the lineup. But if the Sox are serious about keeping Abreu around, it just makes no sense. It should be either JDM OR Abreu. If the Sox want JDM AND Abreu, you better give Abreu a max 2 year deal and be prepared to let him walk after that. Unless the Sox plan to move Vaughn this winter, I just really don't see how all these 1B/DH types fit long term. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squirmin' for Yermin Posted October 30, 2019 Share Posted October 30, 2019 (edited) 17 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said: I really don't see the JDM fit. Sure, he'd be a great bat to have in the lineup. But if the Sox are serious about keeping Abreu around, it just makes no sense. It should be either JDM OR Abreu. If the Sox want JDM AND Abreu, you better give Abreu a max 2 year deal and be prepared to let him walk after that. Unless the Sox plan to move Vaughn this winter, I just really don't see how all these 1B/DH types fit long term. If the Sox simply choose Abreu over JDM, this organization is a complete joke.. If we give Abreu more than 2 years regardless, this organization is a complete joke. I am on the side of having JDM as our #1 priority for offense. Having him as DH and signing Abreu to a 1 year deal, club option for year 2. Edited October 30, 2019 by cjgalloway Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted October 30, 2019 Share Posted October 30, 2019 8 minutes ago, Tony said: I'm excited for Andrew Vaughn, but we've learned time and time and time again, nothing is sure thing. Dude put up a .760 OPS in A+. I know that doesn't mean much, I know it was a super small sample size. But I'm not going to take a player like JDM off the board because of Andrew Vaughn. Not yet at least. I full predict Abreu signs a 2 year deal with a club option for Year 3. If Vaughn pans out and looks ready to start the 2021 season with the MLB club....then you've got a good problem on your hands. The Sox need to compete next season. That's where we are at. Do what you need to do to get us there. Having $45 million locked up at 1b/DH, positions where teams don't tend to give up much in a trade, and your only remaining solid prospect blocked by those guys, with less money to spend in 2021 as a consequence - is actually not a good problem to have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiSox59 Posted October 30, 2019 Share Posted October 30, 2019 16 minutes ago, Tony said: I'm excited for Andrew Vaughn, but we've learned time and time and time again, nothing is sure thing. Dude put up a .760 OPS in A+. I know that doesn't mean much, I know it was a super small sample size. But I'm not going to take a player like JDM off the board because of Andrew Vaughn. Not yet at least. I full predict Abreu signs a 2 year deal with a club option for Year 3. If Vaughn pans out and looks ready to start the 2021 season with the MLB club....then you've got a good problem on your hands. The Sox need to compete next season. That's where we are at. Do what you need to do to get us there. I hear ya. But if you give JDM a 4 year deal and Abreu a 3 year deal, there is nowhere for Vaughn to play in 21-23. I am not counting on him necessarily, but I am not also going to go out of my way to literally block him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiSox59 Posted October 30, 2019 Share Posted October 30, 2019 Just now, Tony said: Neither of those things should happen. If they do, they messed up. Yah....well, I think JDM is going to get a 4 year if he opts out. Abreu I would be VERY surprised if he gets more than a 2 year deal, but.......apparently he is is going to be here until he retires, so does it really matter how long hs next contract is? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted October 30, 2019 Share Posted October 30, 2019 1 hour ago, Balta1701 said: They wound up with a boost of 700 tickets sold per game this year, which isn't the Phillies but it's still a pretty solid jump. Since 2006, the only 2 years where White Sox attendance has gone up year over year are 2015 and 2019 - it has declined every other year. Want to really worry yourself? If they're 10 years out of date on their player valuations, and they think they can sign Wheeler with a 5/$55 deal and they're not willing to go above 5/$68 - the same situation as Machado - we could see this same situation again. You’re attributing all that ticket growth to the Machado pursuits and none to actually having some exciting young players. If anyone got hosed on the Machado pursuit it was season ticket holders and then renewing wouldn’t result in an up. And for the Machado fiasco, I still think there are two factors that drove the miss and they don’t necessarily have to do with valuation. First, I think Jerry is incredibly risk adverse and was the reason we didn’t offer a hard eight years. While I can’t prove that, I think the fact that KW provided some ridiculous explanation for why we couldn’t go longer (to protect Jerry) and the fact we acquired all his buddies supports the idea that Hahn & KW were working with restrictions. Second, I think a lack of experience pursing major free agents cost us. I truly believe the Sox may have been willing to go a little further with their offer, but simply thought Manny’s camp was bluffing with San Diego. The Sox thought they had this in the bag and KW & Hahn’s reactions prove just how shocked they were. Maybe they just suck at valuation, but personally I think they just overplayed their hand and didn’t want to negotiate against themselves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted October 30, 2019 Share Posted October 30, 2019 2 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said: but personally I think they just overplayed their hand and didn’t want to negotiate against themselves. The other things that make me think they are really, really bad at player valuation are: leaking the 8/$175 deal and thinking that they had a strong offer, thinking that upping that offer slightly at Soxfest would make everything come together even while Machado's side had said $300 million was his asking price, Boras not even bothering to leak that they were a player for Harper late in the process/never bothering to call them back after they met at the Winter meetings, and thinking early in the year that they had a chance at both Harper and Machado to the point where that was in the stuff we heard. I think they went into last year expecting that $350 million total would by both of those players, with no ability to process that a $300 million deal was a fair asking price for Machado. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JUSTgottaBELIEVE Posted October 30, 2019 Share Posted October 30, 2019 1 hour ago, Tony said: I'm excited for Andrew Vaughn, but we've learned time and time and time again, nothing is sure thing. Dude put up a .760 OPS in A+. I know that doesn't mean much, I know it was a super small sample size. But I'm not going to take a player like JDM off the board because of Andrew Vaughn. Not yet at least. I full predict Abreu signs a 2 year deal with a club option for Year 3. If Vaughn pans out and looks ready to start the 2021 season with the MLB club....then you've got a good problem on your hands. The Sox need to compete next season. That's where we are at. Do what you need to do to get us there. Agree 100% Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JUSTgottaBELIEVE Posted October 30, 2019 Share Posted October 30, 2019 55 minutes ago, Balta1701 said: Having $45 million locked up at 1b/DH, positions where teams don't tend to give up much in a trade, and your only remaining solid prospect blocked by those guys, with less money to spend in 2021 as a consequence - is actually not a good problem to have. You were the same guy saying last winter the Sox shouldn’t spend money on signing a Free agent to DH because Daniel Palka could provide “cheap production.” How’d that work out? $45M to fill those two positions in 2020 and 2021 isn’t a problem if those two produce like they did in 2019. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted October 30, 2019 Share Posted October 30, 2019 1 minute ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said: You were the same guy saying last winter the Sox shouldn’t spend money on signing a Free agent to DH because Daniel Palka could provide “cheap production.” How’d that work out? $45M to fill those two positions in 2020 and 2021 isn’t a problem if those two produce like they did in 2019. Yup, Palka flopped. Had they spent $15 million at that position and brought in someone good, congratulations on winning 75 games here's the same 3rd place trophy, and now we have $10 million less to spend in 2020? At the very least, we tried it and now we have an extra 40 man spot. That sort of move was exactly what the White Sox should have been doing the last few years, and hell they should have done more of it. And yes, spending 1/3 of your total payroll at 1b and DH can certainly be a problem if any other positions struggle or have injuries. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JUSTgottaBELIEVE Posted October 30, 2019 Share Posted October 30, 2019 4 minutes ago, Balta1701 said: Yup, Palka flopped. Had they spent $15 million at that position and brought in someone good, congratulations on winning 75 games here's the same 3rd place trophy, and now we have $10 million less to spend in 2020? At the very least, we tried it and now we have an extra 40 man spot. That sort of move was exactly what the White Sox should have been doing the last few years, and hell they should have done more of it. And yes, spending 1/3 of your total payroll at 1b and DH can certainly be a problem if any other positions struggle or have injuries. You’re applying that same logic to 2020 and 2021, though. These are seasons the Sox should aspire for more than 70 something wins. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted October 30, 2019 Share Posted October 30, 2019 2 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said: You’re applying that same logic to 2020 and 2021, though. These are seasons the Sox should aspire for more than 70 something wins. Yes, but having a cheap but solid 1b in Vaughn for 2021 would be a huge contributor to something more than 70 wins because that's $20 million I can spend elsewhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Good Guys Posted October 30, 2019 Share Posted October 30, 2019 Is it a guarantee that JDM will opt out? If he's an AL only player as a DH it doesn't give him a lot of options this offseason. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steveno89 Posted October 30, 2019 Share Posted October 30, 2019 8 minutes ago, Good Guys said: Is it a guarantee that JDM will opt out? If he's an AL only player as a DH it doesn't give him a lot of options this offseason. Not at all. There's reason to believe JD might not opt out. The White Sox make a ton of sense as a landing spot, but we need to be prepared for other options. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Sacamano Posted October 30, 2019 Share Posted October 30, 2019 10 minutes ago, Good Guys said: Is it a guarantee that JDM will opt out? If he's an AL only player as a DH it doesn't give him a lot of options this offseason. I'm not 100% sold he does. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCCWS Posted October 30, 2019 Share Posted October 30, 2019 7 minutes ago, Good Guys said: Is it a guarantee that JDM will opt out? If he's an AL only player as a DH it doesn't give him a lot of options this offseason. Not a guarantee. Some rumors in Boston media that he won't. We should know by the weekend. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Good Guys Posted October 30, 2019 Share Posted October 30, 2019 From recent articles I've read it doesn't sound like he'll have many suitors outside of the White Sox. Does Boston want him back? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SonofaRoache Posted October 30, 2019 Share Posted October 30, 2019 In a down year Martinez had an OPS of .939 and an OPS+ of 140. His down year was essentially the year Yoan had at the plate. The question is, can he go a little higher at the plate? I don't think great hitters fall off the complete cliff at 32. I think he has another 3 years of good baseball left in him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BackDoorBreach Posted October 30, 2019 Share Posted October 30, 2019 He literally does everything we need from a DH spot. I don't get the drawback here. He is elite and gets on 37% of the time. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fathom Posted October 30, 2019 Share Posted October 30, 2019 1 hour ago, SCCWS said: Not a guarantee. Some rumors in Boston media that he won't. We should know by the weekend. Just because he doesn’t opt out, it doesn’t mean they won’t look to trade him Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wegner Posted October 30, 2019 Share Posted October 30, 2019 52 minutes ago, BackDoorBreach said: He literally does everything we need from a DH spot. I don't get the drawback here. He is elite and gets on 37% of the time. I agree that with you and hope that they sign him early instead of playing Boras' games and taking this deep into the offseason. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Good Guys Posted October 30, 2019 Share Posted October 30, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, BackDoorBreach said: He literally does everything we need from a DH spot. I don't get the drawback here. He is elite and gets on 37% of the time. I agree with you, but there's just not a lot teams looking to pay a DH the 3/63 remaining on JDM's contract, moreless any more money. Besides the White Sox, the Rangers maybe or the Astros if they don't resign Cole? Are there any other possible teams? The Blue Jay's maybe? Edited October 30, 2019 by Good Guys Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Good Guys Posted October 30, 2019 Share Posted October 30, 2019 I know this reeks of the last offseason but do you offer 4/90 early when no one else would give him 3/63? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted October 30, 2019 Share Posted October 30, 2019 3 minutes ago, Good Guys said: I agree with you, but there's just not a lot teams looking to pay a DH the 3/63 remaining on JDM's contract, moreless any more money. Besides the White Sox, the Rangers maybe or the Astros if they don't resign Cole? Are there any other possible teams? The Blue Jay's maybe? The Astros have Yordan Alvarez, they are set at DH for the forseeable future. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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