JDM staying in Boston

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

1 minute ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

He did have back problems all year and if you have ever had a bad back there's no telling what could set it off.  He missed time in April and May because of it. Then had back spasms in June from running the bases and if that can happen it also can happen from running in the OF and more so I would imagine on a regular basis

This is from an article dated 8/6 2019 : https://www.providencejournal.com/sports/20190806/back-problems-for-jd-martinez-becoming-sore-spot-for-red-sox

“I think the only red flag – if you call it that – is J.D.’s back,” Cora said. “You have to be cautious about playing him in the outfield.”

Martinez worked as the designated hitter for the 24th time in his last 26 games and the 28th in his last 32. He’s appeared in the field only twice since the All-Star break and might not do so again in the immediate future.

This is not the link about the reporter who said he was sore but that is somewhere in either this thread or another one.  I can't do all the research for you.

I guess the question is were they simply being conservative by keeping him at DH or is the back issue expected to be a long term issue? If the latter, then I wouldn’t want him as a DH either.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

50 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

I guess the question is were they simply being conservative by keeping him at DH or is the back issue expected to be a long term issue? If the latter, then I wouldn’t want him as a DH either.

If you combine health issues with just being a bad OF and combine it with how playing the OF would contribute to the back and or foot problem. you are naturally going to be conservative but considering he had the back problems all year I'd imagine it's going to continue to be an issue . Once you have a back problem I'm not sure it ever goes away even if you are fanatical about strengthening your core and stretching. Backs are just tricky that way. Under playing how physically demanding playing any OF position is doesn't help your cause. You do have to dive running at full speed many times or crash into a fall and contort your body in many different ways. You also don't say anything about running the bases or even swinging the bat that all contribute to the physical demands.  You get HBP ,you foul balls off your feet, ankles, knees. Plenty of guys get insured that way quite often.

This should probably help you realize  no NL team would sign him . Sox podcast with Garfien and others but specifically John Tomase of NBC Sports Boston. It also might fire you up as far as his value to the Sox. Of course the Red Sox writer said he didn't think $25M is that much for JDM  considering what he provides or specifically what he  provided Boston. But he is used to the Red Sox payroll and not the White Sox's. https://www.nbcsports.com/chicago/white-sox/white-sox-talk-podcast-red-sox-writer-thinks-jd-martinez-will-sign-white-sox

 

Edited October 31, 2019 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

1 hour ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

If you combine health issues with just being a bad OF and combine it with how playing the OF would contribute to the back and or foot problem. you are naturally going to be conservative but considering he had the back problems all year I'd imagine it's going to continue to be an issue . Once you have a back problem I'm not sure it ever goes away even if you are fanatical about strengthening your core and stretching. Backs are just tricky that way. Under playing how physically demanding playing any OF position is doesn't help your cause. You do have to dive running at full speed many times or crash into a fall and contort your body in many different ways. You also don't say anything about running the bases or even swinging the bat that all contribute to the physical demands.  You get HBP ,you foul balls off your feet, ankles, knees. Plenty of guys get insured that way quite often.

This should probably help you realize  no NL team would sign him . Sox podcast with Garfien and others but specifically John Tomase of NBC Sports Boston. It also might fire you up as far as his value to the Sox. Of course the Red Sox writer said he didn't think $25M is that much for JDM  considering what he provides or specifically what he  provided Boston. But he is used to the Red Sox payroll and not the White Sox's. https://www.nbcsports.com/chicago/white-sox/white-sox-talk-podcast-red-sox-writer-thinks-jd-martinez-will-sign-white-sox

 

My point is if we are concerned about his health in playing the outfield, then there should be equal or more concern as to whether he can even DH - which as you mentioned is even harder on the back based on the stresses to the core and lower body from the sheer mechanics of swinging a baseball bat.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

4 hours ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

My point is if we are concerned about his health in playing the outfield, then there should be equal or more concern as to whether he can even DH - which as you mentioned is even harder on the back based on the stresses to the core and lower body from the sheer mechanics of swinging a baseball bat.

Which is exactly why I don't view JDM as highly as many others do on this message board and Sox fans in general. Too much money for a one dimensional player with injury concerns who, if he opts out, will probably wish to exclude those injury clauses the Red Sox put in his contract .

Edited November 1, 2019 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

[Chicago White Sox]

2 hours ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

Pollock has also had a grand total of 1 season of 3 fWAR or better in his ENTIRE career. Yet, $60M guaranteed. I don’t know why the risk of JDM getting hurt playing the field is equal to or greater than the risk of Pollock getting hurt. Just look at their histories.

Pollock was a 3+ win OF who can play all three positions when healthy, while JDM is at best a 2 win OF and only going to get worse defensively.  I don’t know what to tell you man, but no NL team is signing JDM to any realistic contract.

[poppysox]

2 hours ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Which is exactly why I don't view JDM as highly as many others do on this message board and Sox fans in general. Too much money for a one dimensional player with injury concerns who, if he opts out, will probably wish to exclude those injury clauses the Red Sox put in his contract eliminated in his new contract.

I agree.  Grandal is a safer choice to be productive for length of contract.  Fits our situation IMO.

[Saufley]

7 minutes ago, poppysox said:

I agree.  Grandal is a safer choice to be productive for length of contract.  Fits our situation IMO.

Grandal for 3 years = $             ?

[ChiSox59]

1 minute ago, Saufley said:

Grandal for 3 years = $             ?

$65M should get it done

[SonofaRoache]

32 minutes ago, poppysox said:

I agree.  Grandal is a safer choice to be productive for length of contract.  Fits our situation IMO.

I'm not all that impressed with his offensive numbers, although I do love the .380 OBP from last year. If we are gonna DH and play him at first a lot, I want a little nore offensive production. He is the type of guy that comes to us and just bottoms out. However, If we can't get Martinez, I'd be fine with him. 

[poppysox]

1 minute ago, SonofaRoache said:

I'm not all that impressed with his offensive numbers, although I do love the .380 OBP from last year. If we are gonna DH and play him at first a lot, I want a little nore offensive production. He is the type of guy that comes to us and just bottoms out. However, If we can't get Martinez, I'd be fine with him. 

I am a fan of the Grandal/McCann/Collins sharing Catcher, DH and backup catcher.  Two well rested catchers avoids the fatigue that all catchers experience while giving great mentoring to Collins.  Martinez has been a great hitter but his back scares me in terms of long term commitments.  Just the reverse of your take...if we sign Martinez I will soon be a big fan.

[SonofaRoache]

11 minutes ago, poppysox said:

I am a fan of the Grandal/McCann/Collins sharing Catcher, DH and backup catcher.  Two well rested catchers avoids the fatigue that all catchers experience while giving great mentoring to Collins.  Martinez has been a great hitter but his back scares me in terms of long term commitments.  Just the reverse of your take...if we sign Martinez I will soon be a big fan.

Valid points. I like the idea of Grandal and his versatility but his numbers are too similar to guys who come here and face plant from the NL. I'm not worried about Martinez's back since he will DH and can focus on being a great hitter. Either way, it is a fun time to be a fan. 

[ChiSox59]

1 hour ago, SonofaRoache said:

Valid points. I like the idea of Grandal and his versatility but his numbers are too similar to guys who come here and face plant from the NL. I'm not worried about Martinez's back since he will DH and can focus on being a great hitter. Either way, it is a fun time to be a fan. 

Except Grandal is a catcher. And McCann is a FA after 2020. And Collins is never going to be an everyday catcher. Even if Grandal regresses to .225/.320/.400 type player in the AL, he’d still very valuable as an everyday catcher. 
 

Sure, he’ll play some 1B and DH to stay fresh and get McCann/Collins some reps but this isn’t your typical Adam Dunn / Adam Laroche type DH signing. 

[Chicago White Sox]

2 hours ago, SonofaRoache said:

Valid points. I like the idea of Grandal and his versatility but his numbers are too similar to guys who come here and face plant from the NL. I'm not worried about Martinez's back since he will DH and can focus on being a great hitter. Either way, it is a fun time to be a fan. 

Who is Grandal similar that came to the AL and face-planted?  And why slope coming to AL cause a batter to face-plant in the first place?

[SonofaRoache]

8 hours ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Who is Grandal similar that came to the AL and face-planted?  And why slope coming to AL cause a batter to face-plant in the first place?

I'm talking about from an offensive slugging perspective. Ik talking about Dunn and Adam Ls. And to a lesser extent because he was in the AL the year before joining us, I'm talking about Yonder, who had an OPS of .866, .896, and .793 before joining us with a .738 right before. He had a .576 OPS with us then went to Colorado and in 54 games had an OPS of .837. 

[bmags]

5 minutes ago, SonofaRoache said:

I'm talking about from an offensive slugging perspective. Ik talking about Dunn and Adam Ls. And to a lesser extent because he was in the AL the year before joining us, I'm talking about Yonder, who had an OPS of .866, .896, and .793 before joining us with a .738 right before. He had a .576 OPS with us then went to Colorado and in 54 games had an OPS of .837. 

Prior to being in Cleveland yonder was with the As for his best years.

[Chicago White Sox]

10 minutes ago, SonofaRoache said:

I'm talking about from an offensive slugging perspective. Ik talking about Dunn and Adam Ls. And to a lesser extent because he was in the AL the year before joining us, I'm talking about Yonder, who had an OPS of .866, .896, and .793 before joining us with a .738 right before. He had a .576 OPS with us then went to Colorado and in 54 games had an OPS of .837. 

But there is nothing about the White Sox that caused these guys to decline.  Dunn had an appendix issue as well as a family issue that caused him to bottom out and then age just caught up with him.  LaRoche was just a wildly inconsistent, not very good player who had a bad year and then Drake happened.  As for Yondor, I have no doubt the whole Machado fiasco caused him to press after a bad start.  He wasn’t very good anymore, but obviously better than he showed with us.  Point is these guys underperformed because of them and not the White Sox.

Edited November 1, 2019 by Chicago White Sox

[SCCWS]

15 hours ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

My point is if we are concerned about his health in playing the outfield, then there should be equal or more concern as to whether he can even DH - which as you mentioned is even harder on the back based on the stresses to the core and lower body from the sheer mechanics of swinging a baseball bat.

FWIW--As I remember it, he was out of the lineup for a week or so  in the summer. When he returned, it was as a DH and their announcers said it was less stress on his back. Maybe throwing was a concern?  I know he played quite a bit in the field in September because there was some media speculation it would bring down his FA value. 

[SonofaRoache]

54 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

But there is nothing about the White Sox that caused these guys to decline.  Dunn had an appendix issue as well as a family issue that caused him to bottom out and then age just caught up with him.  LaRoche was just a wildly inconsistent, not very good player who had a bad year and then Drake happened.  As for Yondor, I have no doubt the whole Machado fiasco caused him to press after a bad start.  He wasn’t very good anymore, but obviously better than he showed with us.  Point is these guys underperformed because of them and not the White Sox.

It wasn't the White Sox per se, but that athlete with decent numbers who is on a decline. Grandal's offense wasn't top notch last year. His value comes with his defense. If we bring him here and his offense continues to decline, how much value are we really getting compared to what we are paying? This makes sense if we plan on booting big game James next season. It's a tough call for Hahn because Martinez's bet is still very good, but it too can be in decline. But as an everyday DH, he can focus his efforts on hitting, which may even help with the back issues. If we sign Grandal, I think we need to trade for a really good hitting RF to maximize value. 

[SonofaRoache]

1 hour ago, Chicago White Sox said:

But there is nothing about the White Sox that caused these guys to decline.  Dunn had an appendix issue as well as a family issue that caused him to bottom out and then age just caught up with him.  LaRoche was just a wildly inconsistent, not very good player who had a bad year and then Drake happened.  As for Yondor, I have no doubt the whole Machado fiasco caused him to press after a bad start.  He wasn’t very good anymore, but obviously better than he showed with us.  Point is these guys underperformed because of them and not the White Sox.

Well the idea is that we need to bring in people who are special at something if we're spending big bucks on them. Grandal is special at defense as a catcher, but is a solid but declining  hitter overall at this point. I wouldn't want to bring him here to spend half his time as a DH and playing first base, because then you lose a lot of value in him. 

[BackDoorBreach]

We need a DH that hits and gets on.  Grandal does not hit near enough for me if it was between JDM or Grandal.  JDM's bat just plays so much better.

[ChiSox59]

1 hour ago, BackDoorBreach said:

We need a DH that hits and gets on.  Grandal does not hit near enough for me if it was between JDM or Grandal.  JDM's bat just plays so much better.

If Abreu requires a 3 year deal, are you still in that boat?  

Also, JDM and Grandal had the same OBP last season.  JDM only slightly higher for his career.

I don't think anyone thinks Grandal is a better overall hitter than JDM.  It just comes down to fit, handedness, positional flexibility, etc.   Grandal checks every box, JDM checks 1. Again, I'd be fine with JDM.  But he really does complicate things.  

Edited November 1, 2019 by ChiSox59

[Balta1701]

3 hours ago, Chicago White Sox said:

But there is nothing about the White Sox that caused these guys to decline.  Dunn had an appendix issue as well as a family issue that caused him to bottom out and then age just caught up with him.  LaRoche was just a wildly inconsistent, not very good player who had a bad year and then Drake happened.  As for Yondor, I have no doubt the whole Machado fiasco caused him to press after a bad start.  He wasn’t very good anymore, but obviously better than he showed with us.  Point is these guys underperformed because of them and not the White Sox.

I think this is a very poor description of all of them. Dunn showed signs of falling off dramatically in the 2nd half before we signed him, but we didn't catch it at the time - 2 years into his deal we were all wishing we'd paid attention to that early sign of dropoff. LaRoche was a good player who we signed to a 2 year deal at age 35 - that one the age got us. Yonder's OPS dropped by 100 points between 2017-2018. We've been acquiring DHs as though it's the 90s, where they can last into their mid-late 30s, without paying attention to their ages or the first flashes of dropoff in their early 30s.

If Martinez came here and showed another dropoff in 2020, literally all of us would be pointing at the dropoff in 2019 and saying "F***, we shoulda seen this coming again". It's certainly not guaranteed, and Martinez could also easily be the one to break the trend,  but let's at least understand better how these things went. 

[SonofaRoache]

29 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

I think this is a very poor description of all of them. Dunn showed signs of falling off dramatically in the 2nd half before we signed him, but we didn't catch it at the time - 2 years into his deal we were all wishing we'd paid attention to that early sign of dropoff. LaRoche was a good player who we signed to a 2 year deal at age 35 - that one the age got us. Yonder's OPS dropped by 100 points between 2017-2018. We've been acquiring DHs as though it's the 90s, where they can last into their mid-late 30s, without paying attention to their ages or the first flashes of dropoff in their early 30s.

If Martinez came here and showed another dropoff in 2020, literally all of us would be pointing at the dropoff in 2019 and saying "F***, we shoulda seen this coming again". It's certainly not guaranteed, and Martinez could also easily be the one to break the trend,  but let's at least understand better how these things went. 

Very good post. I think Martinez's issue was more with his back and playing defense. His numbers are well ahead of the other guys we signed and he is one of the best pure hitters in the game, not simply a power guy. It is scary to bring him in, but we need to do something to jumpstart our offense. We also will surround him with a ton of talent so that should take pressure of him, unlike the guys we signed previously. 

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

We will know in a few days but we still don’t know if JD will opt out so all this discussion may be for naught (unless CWS trade for him). I’d put the odds at 50/50 he opts out. 6 months ago, I was much more confident he’d opt out.

Edited November 1, 2019 by JUSTgottaBELIEVE

[BackDoorBreach]

Just now, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

We will know in a few days but we still don’t know if JD will opt out so all this discussion may be for naught (unless CWS trade for him). I’d put the odds at 50/50 he opts out. I was much more confident he’d opt out 6 months ago.

I would not want to trade for him and I'm fully on the "Give JDM a bag" train.  Boras will know what his markwt is so we'll see.  I'd put it 70/30 he opts out.