Edwin Encarnacion - DH

[Perfect Vision]

13 minutes ago, steveno89 said:

I'm not giving up on Collins, but he should be in AAA and not granted a MLB roster spot.

 

Collins just hit .282/.403/.548 in AAA.  He's shown he can hit at that level.  Sure they can send him back there, but then they're right back in the same position with him next offseason.  We know the Sox are going to roll with Robert and Madrigal getting significant playing time this year.  I'd prefer they do the same with Collins.

If they sign Grandal and him/McCann/Collins share the C/DH positions, that's fine with me.

If they sign EE and McCann/Collins share C, that's also fine with me.

But I would prefer they don't sign both Grandal and EE, and instead take that money and put it towards something else (and give Collins his shot).

Edited November 6, 2019 by Perfect Vision

[poppysox]

EE is a fall back if we don't get Grandal.

[thxfrthmmrs]

1 minute ago, steveno89 said:

I'm more inclined to go 1/10 with EE and provide more flexibility going into 2021. Moustakas is not bad in the field, and would likely want more than a DH role considering his ability to play 3B and 2B in a pinch. 

One year deals for Abreu and EE essentially would become an in house competition to see who gets signed back for 2021 as Vaughn could be knocking on the MLB door 

The case for Moose is Abreu has been so bad on the field I think I’d rather have Moose at 1B, even with his limited experience, than sign a full time DH like EE and let Abreu stay on the field. Moose being LHH and much younger also helps.

Abreu as a full time DH is probably a 2.5 WAR player, his defense has been hurting his value for a while now.

I understand Vaughn could be ready to take over at 1B next year, but Moose with one year left at reasonable cost should make the contract movable.

 

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

6 minutes ago, thxfrthmmrs said:

The case for Moose is Abreu has been so bad on the field I think I’d rather have Moose at 1B, even with his limited experience, than sign a full time DH like EE and let Abreu stay on the field. Moose being LHH and much younger also helps.

Abreu as a full time DH is probably a 2.5 WAR player, his defense has been hurting his value for a while now.

I understand Vaughn could be ready to take over at 1B next year, but Moose with one year left at reasonable cost should make the contract movable.

 

Not positive on this calculation, but I believe Abreu actually got a small amount of defensive value at 1st last year compared to being a full time DH. The WAR penalty for being a DH is greater than the penalty he received for his first base defense. 

[Soxnfins]

Typical cheap Sox move I could see happening.  You can do worse than him, but he's just a 'meh' addition for me.

[TheFutureIsNear]

37 minutes ago, steveno89 said:

We all know McCann will turn in a 0.5-1.0 WAR season if he's the starter in 2020, and we will be stuck without a quality starting catching option in 2021 onward when we really want to contend. Grandal locks the position down for the next 3-4 seasons. He also has no QO attached. 

I'm pounding the table for Grandal, McCann's first half was a total fluke buoyed by an over .400 BABIP that won't be repeated. 

 

 

While I’m with you on McCann, my concern is that Grandal won’t be a viable C in 3 years. The idea of paying a 33/34 year old Grandal 16-18M to be a 1B/DH for 2 years isn’t exactly appealing. 
 

 

All for EE as a DH too. He’s too good of a hitter to be upset about having. Especially on a 1 year deal for $12M max. 

Edited November 6, 2019 by TheFutureIsNear

[mqr]

9 minutes ago, Soxnfins said:

Typical cheap Sox move I could see happening.  You can do worse than him, but he's just a 'meh' addition for me.

Not every position can or needs to be filled with an uber expensive FA. Encarnacion stands to be a 4 win improvement at the position over last year, and will allow flexibility for better FAs. 

[hi8is]

Eagle

[ChiSoxFanMike]

2 hours ago, steveno89 said:

Ideal realistic offseason would be:

Wheeler/MBum/Ryu as our primary pitching target. This is going to be a costly addition, but sorely needed for rotation stability and quality. 

Add Grandal to be starting catcher, McCann back him up. Likely going to be a 3-4 year deal worth around $18 million.

Sign Encarnacion to a reasonable one year deal, 1/$8-12 million

Resign Abreu to a reasonable one year deal, he would be smart to accept the qualifying offer. I do not want to go multi year with him at this stage. 

Sign or Trade for a RF. Calhoun/Puig/Gardner/Dickerson could be FA possibilities? Gardner might be reasonable due to age on a one year deal?

Sign a backend starting pitcher, Keuchel on the higher end, Roark/Wood/Gibson/Porcello/Miley/Hill/Gonzalez/Bailey/etc. Plenty of choices

Sign a pen arm, lots of choices exist

This would improve the club quite a bit in 2020, but not tie up 2021 payroll onward moving forward, providing flexibility next offseason to tweak.

 

I like it. In this scenario, one of those primary pitchers and Grandal are the only long term acquisitions, both in areas the Sox need. Edwin and a stopgap RF don’t seem like significant additions, but putting MLB quality players at those positions puts a competitive team on the field for 2020, and still leaves the door open for substantial changes next offseason. Vaughn could then play 1B with Abreu at DH in 2021, and the Sox can go after Joc Pederson or maybe even Mookie Betts in free agency next offseason. This makes a lot of sense.

[caulfield12]

3 hours ago, steveno89 said:

Ideal realistic offseason would be:

Wheeler/MBum/Ryu as our primary pitching target. This is going to be a costly addition, but sorely needed for rotation stability and quality. 

Add Grandal to be starting catcher, McCann back him up. Likely going to be a 3-4 year deal worth around $18 million.

Sign Encarnacion to a reasonable one year deal, 1/$8-12 million

Resign Abreu to a reasonable one year deal, he would be smart to accept the qualifying offer. I do not want to go multi year with him at this stage. 

Sign or Trade for a RF. Calhoun/Puig/Gardner/Dickerson could be FA possibilities? Gardner might be reasonable due to age on a one year deal?

Sign a backend starting pitcher, Keuchel on the higher end, Roark/Wood/Gibson/Porcello/Miley/Hill/Gonzalez/Bailey/etc. Plenty of choices

Sign a pen arm, lots of choices exist

This would improve the club quite a bit in 2020, but not tie up 2021 payroll onward moving forward, providing flexibility next offseason to tweak.

 

Roark and Gibson are looking like the most expensive out of that group at the moment, Pomeranz would be another swing guy.  Pineda, if you don’t mind his background.

[TheFutureIsNear]

33 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

Roark and Gibson are looking like the most expensive out of that group at the moment, Pomeranz would be another swing guy.  Pineda, if you don’t mind his background.

Lindblom is pretty interesting to me. He was a  fairly legit prospect at 1 point and has had some short term success in the big leagues at 1 point. The model to transition back over to the states has had some success too 

[ChiSox59]

3 hours ago, Harold's Leg Lift said:

Hells no.  They're not at the point where they should be signing 30+ year old fill ins.  This is an off season to add core impact players.  Sign the veteran lighning in a bottle help get you over the top guys next off season.  

You can't expect them to fill all the holes with long term core players.  I don't really WANT EE, but he's a decent fall back option if the Sox can't get Grandal to sign the dotted line, or if Abreu leaves. 

[he gone.]

EE has all the markings of a Sox signing. There are literally no suitors for him - I can basically think of maybe... 2-3 legit teams at most. 

 

Yankees, Toronto, Tampa. Those are the three that you can make an argument for. Literally every other team has ZERO need for him. He does have experience in the AL East plus with two of those teams, but I find it hard to seriously consider Tampa spending on him because they have so many cheaper alternatives. Toronto probably makes the most sense if he enjoyed his time there. But outside of that, the Sox have a very clear path to signing him for maybe like a 1 year, $7mm deal with a $1-2mm buyout as incentive with a 2nd year mutual option for like another $6-8mm. 

I'd rather have him than Moose just due to the length of contract. 1 year should allow EE to take on 30-40 games at 1B, Abreu can man 1B this year and then move into a DH role if and when Vaughn is brought up. Nice stop gap. Smart, affordable, productive. All makes sense to me. We don't need to sign any world beaters this off season, we just need to learn our young talents ceilings (Madrigal, Robert, Kopech, Moncada, Anderson, Collins, etc.) at the MLB level so we can assess for the real WS run of 2022 (or possibly 2021). Be patient and give these guys one more year and then we can plug the holes via FA and trade where necessary.

I know people want to push the peddle down right now, but Astros, Yankees, Rays, A's, Boston and even Cleveland if they keep their pitching intact, are all wildly more qualified in the AL than we are in 2020. Not to mention the Dodgers, Nationals, Braves. Move slow, move cautiously, don't go all-in too early like the Padres did where you're now paying the price for bad signings that are getting in the way of your true window. 

This is the year you sign a few stop gap veterans who fill the bill and if truly you are going to spend for a few years in a championship window? You save that money now and apply it later. So give me EE, give me Betances, give me a 1-2 year corner OF which means Puig or Adam Jones or Gardner. Give me a nice veteran arm that gets the job done. Win yourself 81 games, learn to win, learn from vets. Build up an innings base on Kopech and Cease. And then take your giant step in 2021 to where you're dropping $325mm on Mookie Betts, where you're trading 3-4 top prospects for a controllable arm ala Gerrit Cole to the Astros. Go sign yourself an expensive FA pitcher. And really relish those 4-5 years of being in the race each year.

Next year FA class - Rizzo, LeMahieu, Mookie, Justin Turner DH, Cespedes DH,  Brantley, Springer, Bauer (which by the way is a JR wet dream if he truly only signs 1 year deals each year), Kluber, Minor, Morton, Paxton, Quintana, Richards, Robbie Ray, Stroman, Archer. I mean to me... that's the year you plug your holes... You can acquire a SP on the trade market or in FA for much cheaper if those are the options available next off-season. 

I say be patient and you can have the leauge's best OF for 2021-2026 in Eloy, Robert and Betts. your Infield would be Moncada, anderson, madrigal and Vaughn. You can sign yourself any of the other bats listed above as your DH in some combination. TRade your farm for a top SP. Sign yourself Kluber or one of the guys listed... all of a sudden it's:

1)Top Trade target SP, 2) Giolito, 3) Kopech, 4) Kluber, 5) Cease as your rotation. 

I for once am saying just to be patient. Collect your 81 wins this year on a small payroll and then take your d*ck out and flop it on the table and declare to the MLB that you're the kings of 2021-2025.  

[he gone.]

2 hours ago, mqr said:

Not every position can or needs to be filled with an uber expensive FA. Encarnacion stands to be a 4 win improvement at the position over last year, and will allow flexibility for better FAs. 

Exactly. Aka, see the Padres. They got fancy and flashy with their signings and now when they should be going out and signing big guys are strapped because of Hosmer, etc. 

[thxfrthmmrs]

2 hours ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

Not positive on this calculation, but I believe Abreu actually got a small amount of defensive value at 1st last year compared to being a full time DH. The WAR penalty for being a DH is greater than the penalty he received for his first base defense. 

His defensive value at 1B last season for the innings played is lower than the positional adjusted defensive value at DH for the same playing time. So moving to DH would definitely have had a positive impact on his WAR. Not sure by how much exactly however.

[Chicago White Sox]

3 hours ago, mqr said:

Is there any indication the Sox have any interest in Grandal?

I have a feeling they're content with McCann.

Merkin has floated the name for whatever that’s worth.

[Chicago White Sox]

3 hours ago, thxfrthmmrs said:

Would you go for a 37 year old EE at 1/$10 or Moose for 2/$24?

100% Encarnacion.  I’ll take Edwin’s 129 wRC+ over Moustakas’ 113 despite the positional flexibility Moose provides.

[Chicago White Sox]

2 hours ago, Soxnfins said:

Typical cheap Sox move I could see happening.  You can do worse than him, but he's just a 'meh' addition for me.

In what world is a wRC+ of 129 at the DH spot a meh addition?  As the third or fourth best piece of an offseason, he’d be a tremendous addition.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

3 hours ago, Harold's Leg Lift said:

They already did that when they fucked up last off season.  

That's not a reason to do it again especially when you are at a way different point in the rebuild.. That's just crazy. Last if season you had none of the prospects looking good. In fact Moncada and Gioilto looked terrible. Now they look great and so does Eloy while Robert and Madrigal will be up and Kopech will come back and Cease will get a full year. Another year of experience could benefit Lopez also for 2020.

[Balta1701]

1 minute ago, Chicago White Sox said:

In what world is a wRC+ of 129 at the DH spot a meh addition?  As the third or fourth best piece of an offseason, he’d be a tremendous addition.

FWIW, it was 115 in 2018 and Steamer's projection for him next year is 117.

[Chicago White Sox]

2 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

FWIW, it was 115 in 2018 and Steamer's projection for him next year is 117.

And it was 130+ the six year proceeding 2018.  Players do have bad / injury ridden years Balta.  He’s clearly not a 150 wRC+ guy like he used to be, but I’d be willing to wager money he beats that 117 figure Steamer is projected.  And per StatCast, his xWOBA was basically the same as his WOBA, so he wasn’t the beneficiary of good luck.  Anything can happen, but I’ll happily gamble $12M on him being a productive hitter next year.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

6 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

100% Encarnacion.  I’ll take Edwin’s 129 wRC+ over Moustakas’ 113 despite the positional flexibility Moose provides.

Positional versatilty is also injury/non performance insurance at 3 positions. If you sign EE then you better upgrade the bench too  which adds to getting a pure DH cost unless you think Mendick/Leury is fine for long stretches.

[Perfect Vision]

3 hours ago, steveno89 said:

We all know McCann will turn in a 0.5-1.0 WAR season if he's the starter in 2020, and we will be stuck without a quality starting catching option in 2021 onward when we really want to contend. Grandal locks the position down for the next 3-4 seasons. He also has no QO attached. 

I'm pounding the table for Grandal, McCann's first half was a total fluke buoyed by an over .400 BABIP that won't be repeated. 

 

 

Nothing will give a better indication of the competency (or lack thereof) of the Sox front office than if they decide that McCann/Collins is the catching duo they're ready to move forward with into the contending years, because McCann is about to turn back into an offensive pumpkin (already did in the 2nd half last year) and Collins is no more a catcher than Schwarber was.

[Balta1701]

27 minutes ago, Perfect Vision said:

Nothing will give a better indication of the competency (or lack thereof) of the Sox front office than if they decide that McCann/Collins is the catching duo they're ready to move forward with into the contending years, because McCann is about to turn back into an offensive pumpkin (already did in the 2nd half last year) and Collins is no more a catcher than Schwarber was.

He wasn't the best and needed work but Collins was not this epic black hole at the catching spot that people want him to be.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

3 hours ago, Perfect Vision said:

Nothing will give a better indication of the competency (or lack thereof) of the Sox front office than if they decide that McCann/Collins is the catching duo they're ready to move forward with into the contending years, because McCann is about to turn back into an offensive pumpkin (already did in the 2nd half last year) and Collins is no more a catcher than Schwarber was.

Please , it has nothing to do with a lack of competency and has everything to do with making the most of your payroll and letting the kids develop for another year. Collins isn't exactly the only one who will need time to show if he's any good. Robert , Madrigal, Kopech, Cease, Lopez ,Moncada, Eloy ,Giolito have 0 or 1 good year in the majors. The Sox aren't winning the World Series next year so testing the McCann/Collins duo is not a terrible thing. There's always JT Realmuto next year.

I think half the board expects the playoffs next year by the way they post. If you put Collins in with the 8 young players I listed , that's 9 guys that we still know very little or  nothing about. We all saw what Moncada , Giolito and Eloy are capable of and maybe they are capable of a lot more but that still leaves 6 others.

Edited November 7, 2019 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside