Potential Deals with Boston

[bmags]

9 hours ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

I might have to add trading for rentals expecting them to resign because the Sox are just such a well run organization and Hahn and Co. really know how to assess talent.  ?

No, you are misunderstanding something. My advocacy for Betts is what I would do with this team if I had this roster. I refuse to contort my brain, at least this early in the offseason, to limit my options for how this team can change based on Hahn and Co's considerable limitations. It's too depressing to quibble over Eric Thames.

[poppysox]

8 minutes ago, Flash said:

Much prefer Benintendi and far less expensive

Overhyped IMO...not really exceptional at anything.

[Flash]

33 minutes ago, poppysox said:

Overhyped IMO...not really exceptional at anything.

You wouldn't trade Lopez for benintendi?

[poppysox]

2 minutes ago, Flash said:

You wouldn't trade Lopez for benintendi?

No.

[Chicago White Sox]

1 hour ago, poppysox said:

I don't see Benintendi as a better RF alternative than Puig/Calhoun and they don't require a probable #3/#4 starter.

I’d much rather have Benintendi than Puig / Calhoun because he doesn’t come with the baggage of the former and has far more upside than the latter.  I just don’t see why the Red Sox would ever give him up given their payroll constraints.  Acquiring Lopez simply creates a hole in the OF and doesn’t really accomplish anything for them.

[Bob Sacamano]

1 hour ago, Flash said:

You wouldn't trade Lopez for benintendi?

I would. Red Sox would not.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

10 hours ago, Jack Parkman said:

Actually now that I think about it, Leave Moncada alone and sign Moose for 2B if Madrigal is dealt. 

Moose is fine for a backup part time option at 2nd base because he has good hands but he'd be a liability there full time because of his range. I don't expect Madrigal to be traded but he also might not be brought up for a month or longer. 2nd base is the one place that there are quality FA's who could play 2nd base better defensively on a part time basis and still contribute to a quality bench like Sogard, Dozier, Castro ,Kipnis, Kendrick ,Schoop, Asdrubal Cabrera,Gennett and my personal favorite Brock Holt who can also play OF.

Edited November 8, 2019 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

[Jack Parkman]

14 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Moose is fine for a backup part time option at 2nd base because he has good hands but he'd be a liability there full time because of his range. I don't expect Madrigal to be traded but he also might not be brought up for a month or longer. 2nd base is the one place that there are quality FA's who could play 2nd base better defensively on a part time basis and still contribute to a quality bench like Sogard, Dozier, Castro ,Kipnis, Kendrick ,Schoop, Asdrubal Cabrera,Gennett and my personal favorite Brock Holt who can also play OF.

What about Didi? 

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

2 hours ago, bmags said:

No, you are misunderstanding something. My advocacy for Betts is what I would do with this team if I had this roster. I refuse to contort my brain, at least this early in the offseason, to limit my options for how this team can change based on Hahn and Co's considerable limitations. It's too depressing to quibble over Eric Thames.

I will agree that it's depressing given their lack of success in free agency and recognizing and developing talent on every level but I heard something from Dan O'Dowd the other day that for me really hit the nail on the head as far as the Sox or any teams success goes. He said the 2 most important things when building a good team are good young controllable assets and payroll flexibility. We know the Sox have both right now. because of the rebuild I don't think jeopardizing both of those things is prudent especially when teams like Tampa Bay and Oakland can continue to get good results with substandard budgets and a team like Pittsburgh destroys itself by trading young talent. I just think it's much wiser to operate more like Tampa Bay and hoard young talent than it is to screw with the payroll then throw away that talent on a 1 year player with only a scant or even zero chance of him being resigned.  I know your idea is born from depression and hopelessness but right now our only options as fans is hope the controllable assets we have continue to find their way to success through their own hard work and dedication which takes it out of the hands of the lack of player development and recognition of talent.

Edited November 8, 2019 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

[Jack Parkman]

1 minute ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

I will agree that it's depressing given their lack of success in free agency and recognizing and developing talent on every level but I heard something from Dan O'Dowd the other day that for me really hit the nail on the head as far as the Sox or any teams success goes. He said the 2 most important things when building a good team are good young controllable assets and payroll flexibility. We know the Sox have both right now. because of the rebuild I don't think jeopardizing both of those things is prudent especially when teams like Tampa Bay and Oakland can continue to get good results and substandard budgets and a team like Pittsburgh destroys itself by trading young talent. I just think it's much wiser to operate more like Tampa Bay and hoard young talent than it is to screw with the payroll then throw away that talent on a 1 year player with only a scant or even zero chance of him being resigned.  I know your idea is born from depression and hopelessness but right now our only options as fans is hope the controllable assets we have continue to find their way to success through their own hard work and dedication which takes it out of the hands of the lack of player development and recognition of talent.

^^^^^

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

6 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

What about Didi? 

Yes him too since I missed him when scanning the lists of players but the point was there are plenty of 2nd basemen. Adding Didi to the list just makes it 10 instead of the 9 who I mentioned.

[ChiSox59]

1 hour ago, Flash said:

You wouldn't trade Lopez for benintendi?

I would trade Lopez for Benintendi in a second. Benintendi May be a tad overrated, but he’s a well above average player that is solid at everything. He would be a fantastic fit in RF for the Sox.

But the Red Sox aren’t going to trade him for Lopez. 

[poppysox]

14 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

What about Didi? 

Sanchez if we retain his services or Mandick are fine.

[bmags]

11 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

I would trade Lopez for Benintendi in a second. Benintendi May be a tad overrated, but he’s a well above average player that is solid at everything. He would be a fantastic fit in RF for the Sox.

But the Red Sox aren’t going to trade him for Lopez. 

I may be wrong, but I see Benintendi as a guy that was between approaches. We probably take for granted players like Jose Ramirez, Betts, and Lindor that can just say "oh I'll start pulling the ball more and lift it and hit home runs" and it works. I think if he goes back to what he was he'll find more success.

And what he was was a good fit for the white sox, this was a decent walk, great k rate player, which we sorely need to add and why some think Reddick would be a good option for RF as a placeholder. And while I can't be sure, there was enough writers that alluded to it that I think defensive metrics really struggle with defense with the green monster, and I think he's a much better defender than he's graded out as.

[bmags]

21 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

I will agree that it's depressing given their lack of success in free agency and recognizing and developing talent on every level but I heard something from Dan O'Dowd the other day that for me really hit the nail on the head as far as the Sox or any teams success goes. He said the 2 most important things when building a good team are good young controllable assets and payroll flexibility. We know the Sox have both right now. because of the rebuild I don't think jeopardizing both of those things is prudent especially when teams like Tampa Bay and Oakland can continue to get good results with substandard budgets and a team like Pittsburgh destroys itself by trading young talent. I just think it's much wiser to operate more like Tampa Bay and hoard young talent than it is to screw with the payroll then throw away that talent on a 1 year player with only a scant or even zero chance of him being resigned.  I know your idea is born from depression and hopelessness but right now our only options as fans is hope the controllable assets we have continue to find their way to success through their own hard work and dedication which takes it out of the hands of the lack of player development and recognition of talent.

My idea is not born from depression and hopelessness. It's borne from taking advantage of one of the best players in baseball being available, and then re-signing him. And then having one of the best outfields in baseball. None of that should prevent them from actually creating a real international operation, or a real player development operation, or a real amateur draft operation and building out a proper youth pipeline.

He is only a rental if you don't re-sign him. And the idea that losing a prospect like cease "dooms the rebuild" is the equivelant of saying if cease turns out to be as bad as he performed this past yera, then the rebuild is also doomed. And if one pitcher dooms the rebuild then you are already fucked. 

The problem is you are all so adament to make sure the rebuild lasts from 2024-2027 that you are shortening the window that could occur from 2020-2023 - one that is much more realistic as it is before the core pieces become very expensive. Many posters on here have no problem factoring in the risk losing financial flexibility but do not factor in the risk of losing time/seasons - which is also valuable.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

5 minutes ago, bmags said:

My idea is not born from depression and hopelessness. It's borne from taking advantage of one of the best players in baseball being available, and then re-signing him. And then having one of the best outfields in baseball. None of that should prevent them from actually creating a real international operation, or a real player development operation, or a real amateur draft operation and building out a proper youth pipeline.

He is only a rental if you don't re-sign him. And the idea that losing a prospect like cease "dooms the rebuild" is the equivelant of saying if cease turns out to be as bad as he performed this past yera, then the rebuild is also doomed. And if one pitcher dooms the rebuild then you are already fucked. 

The problem is you are all so adament to make sure the rebuild lasts from 2024-2027 that you are shortening the window that could occur from 2020-2023 - one that is much more realistic as it is before the core pieces become very expensive. Many posters on here have no problem factoring in the risk losing financial flexibility but do not factor in the risk of losing time/seasons - which is also valuable.

I was giving you the benefit of the doubt on where that idea came from and if you thought before I don't understand now I am really confused because  you lose credibility posting fantasy notions that the Sox could resign him. When has a team ever resigned a rental ? The last time posters talked about resigning a rental was Smardzija and thank God everyone who wanted that to happen or thought it was a possibility were wrong. That trade only cost the Sox this years MVP candidate and 3 other players who have been major leaguers . The Sox couldn't get 3 major leaguers for Chris Sale unless Basabe can make it and Sale was a dominant pitcher with a great contract. Sure let the same guys who traded for Smardzija and can't recognize talent give the wrong guys away again for a rental.

[bmags]

1 minute ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

I was giving you the benefit of the doubt on where that idea came from and if you thought before I don't understand now I am really confused because  you lose credibility posting fantasy notions that the Sox could resign him. When has a team ever resigned a rental ? The last time posters talked about resigning a rental was Smardzija and thank God everyone who wanted that to happen or thought it was a possibility were wrong. That trade only cost the Sox this years MVP candidate and 3 other players who have been major leaguers . The Sox couldn't get 3 major leaguers for Chris Sale unless Basabe can make it and Sale was a dominant pitcher with a great contract. Sure let the same guys who traded for Smardzija and can't recognize talent give the wrong guys away again for a rental.

Again, I don't give a shit about the white sox terrible front office. There is no reason why the white sox cannot afford a large contract considering their construction and current salary commitments. It is a choice they have made. There is no reason for me to hold to their terrible choices when deciding how the white sox should operate. 

Signing a high cost player would not push the white sox into the luxury tax, one of the only real constraints in MLB to roster building.

Take a lesson from the Padres. "b-b-but Hosmer! B-b-but stadium bonds! B-b-b-ut Wil myers!"

They are still a team considerably below the luxury tax threshold that can choose to operate with a higher set of salaries.

The white sox at any moment could also decide that.

That they won't is not something I am going to validate as "the correct decision" by saying acquiring one of the best players in baseball is bad because the white sox won't sign him. The problem isn't with me there it's with the white sox. Take it up with them.

 

[Lillian]

 

1 hour ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

I will agree that it's depressing given their lack of success in free agency and recognizing and developing talent on every level but I heard something from Dan O'Dowd the other day that for me really hit the nail on the head as far as the Sox or any teams success goes. He said the 2 most important things when building a good team are good young controllable assets and payroll flexibility. We know the Sox have both right now. because of the rebuild I don't think jeopardizing both of those things is prudent especially when teams like Tampa Bay and Oakland can continue to get good results and substandard budgets and a team like Pittsburgh destroys itself by trading young talent. I just think it's much wiser to operate more like Tampa Bay and hoard young talent than it is to screw with the payroll then throw away that talent on a 1 year player with only a scant or even zero chance of him being resigned.  I know your idea is born from depression and hopelessness but right now our only options as fans is hope the controllable assets we have continue to find their way to success through their own hard work and dedication which takes it out of the hands of the lack of player development and recognition of talent.

This is a very valid argument. All one has to do is look at the untenable position, in which some of the big spending teams have placed themselves, to appreciate this perspective. We just spent several pages, discussing how desperate Boston is to shed huge contracts, owed to older and injured players. They aren't the only ones. The contracts for players such as Pujols, Cano and Miggy should serve as warning signs to Hahn. 

Perhaps just exercising a little more patience, to see how things progress this season, will better determine what this team will need for their real window of contention, in 2021. It's quite conceivable that Madrigal, Robert and Vaughn will fill 3 holes, and that one of the several OF prospects will fill the hole in RF. The starting staff may have enough depth with Gio, Kopech, Cease, Lopez, Dunning, even without the soon to become Free agent, Rodon. It's not easy to have the patience, but in this case, it may be a real virtue.

It wouldn't be unreasonable to just fill a couple of holes, with shorter term contracts, and maintain the financial flexibility.

Edited November 8, 2019 by Lillian

[wegner]

5 minutes ago, Lillian said:

 

This is a very valid argument. All one has to do is look at the untenable position, in which some of the big spending teams have placed themselves, to appreciate this perspective. We just spent several pages, discussing how desperate Boston is to shed huge contracts, owed to older and injured players. They aren't the only ones. The contracts for players such as Pujols, Cano and Miggy should serve as warning signs to Hahn. 

Perhaps just exercising a little more patience, to see how things progress this season, will better determine what this team will need for their real window of contention, in 2021. It's quite conceivable that Madrigal, Robert and Vaughn will fill 3 holes, and that one of the several OF prospects will fill the hole in RF. The starting staff may have enough depth with Gio, Kopech, Cease, Lopez, Dunning, even without the soon to become Free agent, Rodon. It's not easy to have the patience, but in this case, it may be a real virtue.

I totally agree with the sentiment of being patient with the younger players and seeing what we have in the minors instead of trading away those assets for any rentals at this point.  But I also believe that they do need to use their financial flexibility to bring in some pitching, particularly starting pitching, through free agency this year.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

12 minutes ago, bmags said:

Again, I don't give a shit about the white sox terrible front office. There is no reason why the white sox cannot afford a large contract considering their construction and current salary commitments. It is a choice they have made. There is no reason for me to hold to their terrible choices when deciding how the white sox should operate. 

Signing a high cost player would not push the white sox into the luxury tax, one of the only real constraints in MLB to roster building.

Take a lesson from the Padres. "b-b-but Hosmer! B-b-but stadium bonds! B-b-b-ut Wil myers!"

They are still a team considerably below the luxury tax threshold that can choose to operate with a higher set of salaries.

The white sox at any moment could also decide that.

That they won't is not something I am going to validate as "the correct decision" by saying acquiring one of the best players in baseball is bad because the white sox won't sign him. The problem isn't with me there it's with the white sox. Take it up with them.

 

Take a lesson from the Padres ? That is not an organization the Sox should be emulating. Just because you have the payroll space is no reason to throw it away early nor throw away any potential piece to the core. I don't understand your constant referral to the luxury tax limits because the Sox will never come close to having that problem . Their payroll is limited to far below that limit and therefore they have to be much more cognizant of signing elite Free Agents. I could see an argument for signing Cole or Strasburg or even Betts but not  trading for Betts and hoping for a miracle resigning.

The successful rebuilds didn't sign rentals and give away young talent too early they let that talent play out or like the Cubs traded it away to get a piece for the World Series run and to then try to sustain it afterwards , the same with Houston. The Sox aren't close to a World Series and neither are the Padres. I'd much rather emulate those 2 teams since they had success at it or Tampa that has proven time and time again that extended runs are more about using payroll wisely than signing top name talent.

Leave those things to the free spenders like Boston, Yankees and Dodgers and 2 of those 3 teams still have a good farm and the other one just brought in Chaim Bloom from Tampa to  try to fix what Dombroski broke by decimating the farm and operating near the luxury tax.

[caulfield12]

1 hour ago, bmags said:

Again, I don't give a shit about the white sox terrible front office. There is no reason why the white sox cannot afford a large contract considering their construction and current salary commitments. It is a choice they have made. There is no reason for me to hold to their terrible choices when deciding how the white sox should operate. 

Signing a high cost player would not push the white sox into the luxury tax, one of the only real constraints in MLB to roster building.

Take a lesson from the Padres. "b-b-but Hosmer! B-b-but stadium bonds! B-b-b-ut Wil myers!"

They are still a team considerably below the luxury tax threshold that can choose to operate with a higher set of salaries.

The white sox at any moment could also decide that.

That they won't is not something I am going to validate as "the correct decision" by saying acquiring one of the best players in baseball is bad because the white sox won't sign him. The problem isn't with me there it's with the white sox. Take it up with them.

 

And the Padres’ local media (tv/radio) deal is 2nd worst in baseball.

Only KC, Cincy, Pitt, Cleve, Detroit and Milwaukee can vie with it.

Despite our abysmal ratings, we’re closer to Top 8-12 in local media market “value.”

[caulfield12]

2 hours ago, Lillian said:

 

This is a very valid argument. All one has to do is look at the untenable position, in which some of the big spending teams have placed themselves, to appreciate this perspective. We just spent several pages, discussing how desperate Boston is to shed huge contracts, owed to older and injured players. They aren't the only ones. The contracts for players such as Pujols, Cano and Miggy should serve as warning signs to Hahn. 

Perhaps just exercising a little more patience, to see how things progress this season, will better determine what this team will need for their real window of contention, in 2021. It's quite conceivable that Madrigal, Robert and Vaughn will fill 3 holes, and that one of the several OF prospects will fill the hole in RF. The starting staff may have enough depth with Gio, Kopech, Cease, Lopez, Dunning, even without the soon to become Free agent, Rodon. It's not easy to have the patience, but in this case, it may be a real virtue.

It wouldn't be unreasonable to just fill a couple of holes, with shorter term contracts, and maintain the financial flexibility.

We’re counting on Minnesota and Cleveland to fumble away their current competitive advantages for that to happen.

Another TJ hit to the young rotation, Collins/McCann fading into obscurity along with Abreu’s bat speed and the relief corps completely imploding...and then what?

They’re 100% forced to get Realmuto at top dollar...and DESPERATELY spending another $60+ million in free agency this time next year, or you can start taking about firing the entire front office and trading off Moncada, Giolito, Anderson, etc.

While that’s not LIKELY, it’s also not outside the realm of possibility, either.  Certainly not with this front office group’s record the past decade.

Just imagine we didn’t add one veteran starter who could even profile as a #2/3 and Kopech/Giolito/Cease goes down with a major injury.   Heck, even Lopez, the way the roster is currently constructed.  To quote Midway, it would be “sayonara.”

Edited November 8, 2019 by caulfield12

[BackDoorBreach]

You only trade for Betts if the Sawx FO allows you to negotiate with him before the trade, imo.  If that happens just give him whatever he wants.

I don't mind the Sox going out and making some trades this off season for need if they are relatively cheap.  We can't just burn another year of cheap control to win 75 games.

[caulfield12]

4 minutes ago, BackDoorBreach said:

You only trade for Betts if the Sawx FO allows you to negotiate with him before the trade, imo.  If that happens just give him whatever he wants.

I don't mind the Sox going out and making some trades this off season for need if they are relatively cheap.  We can't just burn another year of cheap control to win 75 games.

$375-400 million?

Anyone born before the Belle and A-Rod contracts knows that will never happen in a million years under JR ownership.

[BackDoorBreach]

Just now, caulfield12 said:

$375-400 million?

Anyone born before the Belle and A-Rod contracts knows that will never happen in a million years under JR ownership.

I think that's pretty realistic on the numbers, yeah.  I mean they just offered 250 to Machado who isn't as good of a player and had massive red flags.  Do I think this is going to happen?  No.  I see Cole more likely than Betts because he's likely to be in the 250-280 range which is comparable to Machado, despite the pitcher trigger warning.