Rick Hahn's Resume as GM

[Dick Allen]

1 hour ago, poppysox said:

If we didn't have "three immensely-valuable contracts to trade" we would have had higher draft picks.  Can't have it both ways.

Even with them, Rick Hahn generally managed teams have never produced a draft pick lower than 11.  So next year will be the 7th consecutive year the Sox pick in the top 11, including 2 pick 3s, 1 pick 4, 1 pick 8, 1 pick 10, and 2 pick 11s.  Larry Himes totally rebuilt the White Sox with a 5,7,10 and 4.  He is a smart guy, but maybe building MLB rosters isn’t his thing. There seems to be a lot of proof out there. He thought he had at least a couple of contenders, yet never won more than 78 games.  

At the very least, they need new braintrust. JR needs to say thanks for the memories to KW and RH, hire someone else and lose his or her cell number to stay out of the way.

Edited November 10, 2019 by Dick Allen

[caulfield12]

28 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

Even with them, Rick Hahn generally managed teams have never produced a draft pick lower than 11.  So next year will be the 7th consecutive year the Sox pick in the top 11, including 2 pick 3s, 1 pick 4, 1 pick 8, 1 pick 10, and 2 pick 11s.  Larry Himes totally rebuilt the White Sox with a 5,7,10 and 4.  He is a smart guy, but maybe building MLB rosters isn’t his thing. There seems to be a lot of proof out there. He thought he had at least a couple of contenders, yet never won more than 78 games.  

At the very least, they need new braintrust. JR needs to say thanks for the memories to KW and RH, hire someone else and lose his or her cell number to stay out of the way.

Not to mention the Burdi pick.

Without Robert, this rebuild would be in serious jeopardy.  

Edited November 10, 2019 by caulfield12

[Colinski]

21 hours ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Alright, recently a poster who shall remain nameless called Rick Hahn "a very smart guy" and expressed optimism in his ability to take us to the next level.  As such, I thought it would be fitting to summarize Rick's tenure as GM (both the good & the bad) and see what people really think.  If I'm missing anything of substance below, please let me know as I'm trying to be objective here as possible.  With that said here we go:

  ▪ Duration:  7 seasons (2013 to 2019)

  ▪ W/L Record:  491-642 (.433 winning %)

  ▪ Playoff Appearances:  Zero

  ▪ Winning Seasons:  Zero

  ▪ Avg Central Finish:  4.0 (3rd x 1, 4th x 5, 5th x 1)

  ▪ Free Agency:  $256M for 20 bWAR ($13M / win) │ Abreu = $68M for 21 bWAR │All Others = $188M for -1 bWAR  (per SoxMachine)

  ▪ Extensions:  Sale = 7/$60M (3 FA years) │ Quainta = 7/$44M (2 FA years) │ Eaton = 7/$44M (3 FA years) │ Anderson = 8/$52M (2 FA years) │ Jimenez = 8/$78M (1 FA year)

  ▪ Sell Trades:  Hector Santiago & Brandon Jacobs for Adam Eaton │ Addison Read for Matt Davidson │ Jake Peavy for Avi Garcia, Frankie Montas, Clueluis Rondon, & J.B. Wendelken │ Gordon Beckham for Yency Almonte │ Zach Duke for Charlie Tilson │ Chris Sale for Yoan Moncada, Michael Kopech, Luis Basabe, & Victor Diaz │ Adam Eaton for Lucas Giolito, Reynaldo Lopez, & Dane Dunning │ Jose Quintana for Eloy Jimenez, Dylan Cease, Matt Rose, & Bryant Flete │ Anthony Swarzak for Ryan Cordell │ David Robertson, Tommy Kahnle, & Todd Frazier for Blake Rutherford, Ian Clarkin, & Tito Polo

  ▪ Buy Trades:  Marcus Semien, Chris Bassitt, Josh Phegley, & Rangel Ravelo for Jeff Samardzija │ Yency Almonte for Tommy Kahnle │ Zack Erwin & J.B. Wendelken for Brett Lawrie │ Trayce Thompson, Frankie Montas, & Micah Johnson for Todd Frazier │ Erik Johnson & Fernando Tatis Jr for James Shields │ Justin Yurchak for Manny Banuelos │ Omar Narvaez for Alex Colome │ Yordi Rosario for Ivan Nova │ Alex for Yonder Alonso

  ▪ Bonus Slot Trades:  Alex Katz for $756k in Bonus Slot │Undisclosed Bonus Slot for Ryan Burr │ $500k in Bonus Slot for Thyago Vieira │ $1.3M* in Bonus Slot for Yeyson Yrizarri │ $1.5M in Bonus Slot for Caleb Frare │ $1M* in Bonus Slot for Hunter Schryver │ Undisclosed bonus slot for Ricardo Pinto │$1M in Bonus Slot for Nate Jones' $1.25M buyout, Ray Castro, & Joseph Jarneski │ $250k in Bonus Slot for Wellington Castillo's $500k buyout & Jonah McReynolds

  ▪ Misc Moves:  Non-tendered Tyler Flowers (2015) │ Selected Jimmy Cordero off waivers (2019)

  ▪ Drafting:  Tim Anderson = 7.8 fWAR (2013/01) │ Carlos Rodon = 6.9 fWAR (2014/01) │ Jace Fry = 1.2 fWAR (2014/03) │ Aaron Bummer = 1.6 fWAR (2014/19) │ Nick Madrigal = Top 100 Prospect (2018/01) │ Andrew Vaughn = Top 100 Prospect (2019/01)

  ▪ LatAm Signings:  Fernando Tatis Jr = 3.6 fWAR (2015 class) │ Luis Robert = Top 100 Prospect (2017 class)

 

21 hours ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Alright, recently a poster who shall remain nameless called Rick Hahn "a very smart guy" and expressed optimism in his ability to take us to the next level.  As such, I thought it would be fitting to summarize Rick's tenure as GM (both the good & the bad) and see what people really think.  If I'm missing anything of substance below, please let me know as I'm trying to be objective here as possible.  With that said here we go:

  ▪ Duration:  7 seasons (2013 to 2019)

  ▪ W/L Record:  491-642 (.433 winning %)

  ▪ Playoff Appearances:  Zero

  ▪ Winning Seasons:  Zero

  ▪ Avg Central Finish:  4.0 (3rd x 1, 4th x 5, 5th x 1)

  ▪ Free Agency:  $256M for 20 bWAR ($13M / win) │ Abreu = $68M for 21 bWAR │All Others = $188M for -1 bWAR  (per SoxMachine)

  ▪ Extensions:  Sale = 7/$60M (3 FA years) │ Quainta = 7/$44M (2 FA years) │ Eaton = 7/$44M (3 FA years) │ Anderson = 8/$52M (2 FA years) │ Jimenez = 8/$78M (1 FA year)

  ▪ Sell Trades:  Hector Santiago & Brandon Jacobs for Adam Eaton │ Addison Read for Matt Davidson │ Jake Peavy for Avi Garcia, Frankie Montas, Clueluis Rondon, & J.B. Wendelken │ Gordon Beckham for Yency Almonte │ Zach Duke for Charlie Tilson │ Chris Sale for Yoan Moncada, Michael Kopech, Luis Basabe, & Victor Diaz │ Adam Eaton for Lucas Giolito, Reynaldo Lopez, & Dane Dunning │ Jose Quintana for Eloy Jimenez, Dylan Cease, Matt Rose, & Bryant Flete │ Anthony Swarzak for Ryan Cordell │ David Robertson, Tommy Kahnle, & Todd Frazier for Blake Rutherford, Ian Clarkin, & Tito Polo

  ▪ Buy Trades:  Marcus Semien, Chris Bassitt, Josh Phegley, & Rangel Ravelo for Jeff Samardzija │ Yency Almonte for Tommy Kahnle │ Zack Erwin & J.B. Wendelken for Brett Lawrie │ Trayce Thompson, Frankie Montas, & Micah Johnson for Todd Frazier │ Erik Johnson & Fernando Tatis Jr for James Shields │ Justin Yurchak for Manny Banuelos │ Omar Narvaez for Alex Colome │ Yordi Rosario for Ivan Nova │ Alex for Yonder Alonso

  ▪ Bonus Slot Trades:  Alex Katz for $756k in Bonus Slot │Undisclosed Bonus Slot for Ryan Burr │ $500k in Bonus Slot for Thyago Vieira │ $1.3M* in Bonus Slot for Yeyson Yrizarri │ $1.5M in Bonus Slot for Caleb Frare │ $1M* in Bonus Slot for Hunter Schryver │ Undisclosed bonus slot for Ricardo Pinto │$1M in Bonus Slot for Nate Jones' $1.25M buyout, Ray Castro, & Joseph Jarneski │ $250k in Bonus Slot for Wellington Castillo's $500k buyout & Jonah McReynolds

  ▪ Misc Moves:  Non-tendered Tyler Flowers (2015) │ Selected Jimmy Cordero off waivers (2019)

  ▪ Drafting:  Tim Anderson = 7.8 fWAR (2013/01) │ Carlos Rodon = 6.9 fWAR (2014/01) │ Jace Fry = 1.2 fWAR (2014/03) │ Aaron Bummer = 1.6 fWAR (2014/19) │ Nick Madrigal = Top 100 Prospect (2018/01) │ Andrew Vaughn = Top 100 Prospect (2019/01)

  ▪ LatAm Signings:  Fernando Tatis Jr = 3.6 fWAR (2015 class) │ Luis Robert = Top 100 Prospect (2017 class)

  ▪ Player Dev Rank:  30th / -$350M in value generated (per Driveline)

 ▪ Player Dev Rank:  30th / -$350M in value generated (per Driveline)

Can someone explain this player development rank more fully please ?

not finding a diamond in the rough is my concern, everything else that’s gone wrong I see as hindsight somewhat. 

[Dick Allen]

6 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

A lot of it is hindsight, but that doesn't lessen the errors. Results should matter at some point.  They seem to with everyone else. Think about it....2 months ago Matt Nagy was believed to be close to a genius football coach. Now many think he may not be a head coach. One month ago, alumni were calling for Lovie Smith's head. Now he is being hoisted on his players shoulders. Theo sent a guy away who made the playoffs and won a title with,  and had to have so bad he paid the guy the Sox think is going to bunt them to multiple championships not to manage.

There aren't many teams in pro sports where a guy like Rick Hahn, with his results, would be given the opportunity he has been given . 3 or 4 or 5 or whatever it will eventually  be of more losing under the guise of rebuilding, with no responsibility to win until everything goes right. Only one other front office in pro sportshas that same security,  and they are owned by the same guy.

I am not a JR basher, in fact I have defended him plenty,  but it has passed him by. He is too risk aversed financially to field sustained winners. Do you really thing if his players all turned into stars he would get into luxury tax territory? He refused with the Bulls, and that team has printed money for over 30 years.It's time for him to cash out, bring in a new owner for both his teams with new management,  and get this right.

Edit, I quoted the wrong post. Meant to quote the one above me.

 

[WBWSF]

13 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

 

Your heart is in the right place about wishing JR should sell the White Sox but realistically its not going to happen. He's making nothing but money with this team. If there is one thing JR is good at, its making money. Believe me he's not going to sell a goldmine. If this team was losing money he would sell ASAP but that's not the case.

[Chicago White Sox]

32 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

Even with them, Rick Hahn generally managed teams have never produced a draft pick lower than 11.  So next year will be the 7th consecutive year the Sox pick in the top 11, including 2 pick 3s, 1 pick 4, 1 pick 8, 1 pick 10, and 2 pick 11s.  Larry Himes totally rebuilt the White Sox with a 5,7,10 and 4.  He is a smart guy, but maybe building MLB rosters isn’t his thing. There seems to be a lot of proof out there. He thought he had at least a couple of contenders, yet never won more than 78 games.  

At the very least, they need new braintrust. JR needs to say thanks for the memories to KW and RH, hire someone else and lose his or her cell number to stay out of the way.

IMO, the biggest failure with the rebuild is potentially getting little to nothing out of those 2015 to 2017 drafts.  You can’t go three years without adding a few major quality leaguers and expect sustainable success, especially when your LatAm operations is mostly non-existent.

Looking at the 2015 draft, Fulmer is almost certainly a bust (at least with us) and he’s the only top five pick still in the organization.  Our last hopes with this draft are Zangari (6th), Zavala (12th), & Mendick (22nd).  If we’re lucky, we get one quality bench player from this draft and that’s really pathetic.  That being said, we did forfeit our 2nd & 3rd round picks so expectations should have been tempered.

There’s still some hope for 2016, but it’s very possible we end up with very little to show from it as most of the guys left are high variance players and/or injured.  Collins could still be something, but his margin for error shrinks if he can’t stick behind the plate.  Lambert was flashing starter potential before he went down, so there may be hope for him with a strong recovery.  Hamilton & Burdi both have plus stuff (the latter has admittedly lost some), but are coming off multiple injuries.  Flores has fringe stuff but maybe could be a swingman.  Hansen is a fucking headcase and his ceiling is now that of a reliever.  Again, there is some hope here, but we’d really need Collins to step up for this to be decent.

And finally 2017.  Burger’s injuries have been devastating and have stacked the odds against him ever amounting to something of significance.  Gonzalez hit the Birmingham wall and it remains to see if he has anything more than 4th OF ceiling.  There are a few low upside arms still in the system plus Abbott in short season ball, but this draft will most likely come down Sheets & Tyler Johnson if LuGo can’t take another step forward.  And honestly, while I’m excited about the improvement in power that Sheets displayed this year, it ultimately means nothing until we see how he does in AAA.  At this point, it’s very possible we end up with one good reliever and one solid bench piece as the entire haul of this draft, which would be terrible.

[caulfield12]

9 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

IMO, the biggest failure with the rebuild is potentially getting little to nothing out of those 2015 to 2017 drafts.  You can’t go three years without adding a few major quality leaguers and expect sustainable success, especially when your LatAm operations is mostly non-existent.

Looking at the 2015 draft, Fulmer is almost certainly a bust (at least with us) and he’s the only top five pick still in the organization.  Our last hopes with this draft are Zangari (6th), Zavala (12th), & Mendick (22nd).  If we’re lucky, we get one quality bench player from this draft and that’s really pathetic.  That being said, we did forfeit our 2nd & 3rd round picks so expectations should have been tempered.

There’s still some hope for 2016, but it’s very possible we end up with very little to show from it as most of the guys left are high variance players and/or injured.  Collins could still be something, but his margin for error shrinks if he can’t stick behind the plate.  Lambert was flashing starter potential before he went down, so there may be hope for him with a strong recovery.  Hamilton & Burdi both have plus stuff (the latter has admittedly lost some), but are coming off multiple injuries.  Flores has fringe stuff but maybe could be a swingman.  Hansen is a fucking headcase and his ceiling is now that of a reliever.  Again, there is some hope here, but we’d really need Collins to step up for this to be decent.

And finally 2017.  Burger’s injuries have been devastating and have stacked the odds against him ever amounting to something of significance.  Gonzalez hit the Birmingham wall and it remains to see if he has anything more than 4th OF ceiling.  There are a few low upside arms still in the system plus Abbott in short season ball, but this draft will most likely come down Sheets & Tyler Johnson if LuGo can’t take another step forward.  And honestly, while I’m excited about the improvement in power that Sheets displayed this year, it ultimately means nothing until we see how he does in AAA.  At this point, it’s very possible we end up with one good reliever and one solid bench piece as the entire haul of this draft, which would be terrible.

Can they honestly trust any Charlotte numbers?  As bad as Birmingham can make halfway decent hitters look...everyone in AAA was sporting 875ish or higher OPS numbers last year.

As much as one would like to believe in Mercedes...it’s just not likely to happen with the Sox.  The few Zavala supporters disappeared in the middle of last year.  AAAA filler or trade throw-ins.

With Sheets, he’s going to be blocked behind Abreu, Collins and Vaughn...so he probably ends up as trade bait as well. 

[GreenSox]

20 hours ago, Y2Jimmy0 said:

It was absolutely not his call to accelerate it. You honestly believe that it was Rick Hahn's idea to add during that 2014 off-season instead of continuing on a "rebuilding" path after the Abreu signing? 

The call to accelerate was premature.  But Hahn executed the acceleration - and he did it poorly.
His drafts have been poor.
And what about the June desperation in 2016 - trading for a broken down pitcher, ignoring the advice about Tatis, using a draft pick on a relief pitcher?
Yes, he was probably not allowed to offer Machado market value.  But whose idea was "friends and family"?  That was a clown act.  Further, as mentioned by others, part of his job is to make the business case to not accelerate or, in the case of Machado, to offer market value.  

Edited November 10, 2019 by GreenSox

[Whisox05]

9 hours ago, caulfield12 said:

The difference is those teams all had to start their rebuilds with primarily Top 10 draft picks.

The Cubs were an exception.  They already know had Baez, Rizzo and jump-started with Lester and Contreras lurking as a stealth future MVP candidate at catcher (who nobody knew much about.)

But the Astros and Royals until the finishing touches like Cueto, Shields, Zobrist and Chapman were 70-80% constructed out of draft picks.

If you take away having those three immensely-valuable contracts to trade (not to mention Frazier/Kahnle), the rebuild is basically Anderson, Rodon, Robert, Madrigal, Abreu and Vaughn...and is closer to being torn down and gutted than supplemented with free agents.

Somehow, we’ve managed to turn one of the worst records in baseball over the past decade into a #21-24 farm system by mid season of 2020.   And it’s certainly not because we’ve graduated multiple players from each draft class stretching from 2015-2018 into the major leagues.

Yes those teams had to build through the draft but the Sox had a plus having three very good talents on cheap contracts to trade to advance the rebuild with more talent. If the Sox had to depend on drafting talent and signing international talent to supplement the rebuild the sox probably wouldnt be able to do that. Drafting and developing players along with signing international talent has plagued this team for at least 20 yrs. 

[Balta1701]

7 hours ago, Colinski said:

Can someone explain this player development rank more fully please ?

not finding a diamond in the rough is my concern, everything else that’s gone wrong I see as hindsight somewhat. 

See this article from earlier this season.

[GradMc]

On 11/9/2019 at 11:23 AM, Dick Allen said:

We can only hope he has learned lessons and when he gets to the point he was at before and failed miserably, he will be successful. 

One thing that would help is trying to get the team being as good as can be on opening day, not half assing saying you will add at the deadline. If that practice hasn't been eliminated, the sustained success goal will never be realized. Face it, the only time they won, Geoff Blum was the only addition. If you needed to add significantly at the deadline, White Sox fans may still be waiting.

Juggernaut on opening day should be the goal.

We can talk over it, under it and through it but it still comes down to the same damn thing. Nothing is going to happen unless ownership decides to seriously upgrade the vetted talent level in the front office, in the dugout and on the field.

He got his cost-contained, lightening in a bottle, one-hit wonder in 2005. He is among the rare sports owners on this planet to have won world championship in two different major sports.

He is no longer thirsty.

He is content in keeping the fanbases in a perpetual state of hunger and thirst.  

Kenny-Hahn and Gar-Pax should be distant memories by now. 

They're still here.

What else do we need to know ?

Edited November 11, 2019 by GradMc

[ChiliIrishHammock24]

On 11/9/2019 at 2:32 PM, NCsoxfan said:

If Hahn left the White Sox would he be considered for another MLB GM position?

 

my answer is an unequivocal NO.

Yes, and I think he would thrive under an owner committed to winning with every dollar he can reasonably spend.

[pcq]

22 hours ago, NCsoxfan said:

Are you a real life George Costanza?

He has a considerable minus WAR in the mental hygiene dept. 

[bmags]

5 hours ago, ChiliIrishHammock24 said:

Yes, and I think he would thrive under an owner committed to winning with every dollar he can reasonably spend.

Do you realize that two playoff teams had smaller payrolls than the white Sox did last year?

Had he not been delusional and actually committed to giving the team the type of team building resources needed for teams with payroll restrictions (actually ... all teams really) he wouldn’t be in this position of questioning his usefulness.

The Rays built a playoff team and number one farm system in baseball, and many of those pieces are from intl and drafts from 2013/14. 
 

Hahn had plenty of time to build an org that was strong from bottom up, but instead he went along with the cronyism of never firing anyone and let the boys who have been there forever just keep doin what they are doin.

[Eminor3rd]

The widely-held misconception that the GM is primarily responsible for all the things listed in the OP is fascinating to me, because it leads fans to spend a lot of time and energy forming very strong opinions about these people as if they can actually know them — which, since no one actually can, on either side of the argument, leads almost to the creation of a fictional universe inside a fans mind where being the GM of a team is actually just like playing OOTP. Where people actually think that each decision is made by a single person, inside the near vacuum of how a fan views the game — virtually ignoring all the context of running a business, such as satisfying ownerships demands, balancing a budget that achieves revenue and profit goals, professional development of employees who have been delegated important tasks, etc.

There’s no doubt that this franchise has been a joke the last ten or fifteen years, from top to bottom — certainly in terms of performance on the field and, from all outward appearances, as a brand and promotional entity as well. But the line of thought that connects a poster talking about Rick Hahn as an intelligent person based on his education and mannerisms and another poster arguing the opposite using evidence such as the White Sox’ lack of success acquiring amateur talent in Latin America is bizarre. 

[caulfield12]

5 minutes ago, Eminor3rd said:

The widely-held misconception that the GM is primarily responsible for all the things listed in the OP is fascinating to me, because it leads fans to spend a lot of time and energy forming very strong opinions about these people as if they can actually know them — which, since no one actually can, on either side of the argument, leads almost to the creation of a fictional universe inside a fans mind where being the GM of a team is actually just like playing OOTP. Where people actually think that each decision is made by a single person, inside the near vacuum of how a fan views the game — virtually ignoring all the context of running a business, such as satisfying ownerships demands, balancing a budget that achieves revenue and profit goals, professional development of employees who have been delegated important tasks, etc.

There’s no doubt that this franchise has been a joke the last ten or fifteen years, from top to bottom — certainly in terms of performance on the field and, from all outward appearances, as a brand and promotional entity as well. But the line of thought that connects a poster talking about Rick Hahn as an intelligent person based on his education and mannerisms and another poster arguing the opposite using evidence such as the White Sox’ lack of success acquiring amateur talent in Latin America is bizarre. 

He’s been successful at profit maximization...despite probably having the worst rate of return on FA spending as measured by $ per fWAR.  Amazingly, it’s negative -1 for $188 million in spending outside of Abreu (who was a KW/Paddy signing).  Even if you’re overpaying egregiously, you should at least get 10-15 bWAR or fWAR.   

That -1 shouldn’t even be possible, imagining that you took all the free agents each cycle, pinned balloons to the wall representing those players, and threw darts while blindfolded until you hit JR’s FA spending limit per year.   We should just pay the Astros to let their proprietary AI/algorithm make decisions.  Over the long term, that would save a ton of money that JR spends on KW and Hahn.

 

[Eminor3rd]

17 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

He’s been successful at profit maximization...despite probably having the worst rate of return on FA spending as measured by $ per fWAR.  Amazingly, it’s negative -1 for $188 million in spending outside of Abreu (who was a KW/Paddy signing).  Even if you’re overpaying egregiously, you should at least get 10-15 bWAR or fWAR.   

That -1 shouldn’t even be possible, imagining that you took all the free agents each cycle, pinned balloons to the wall representing those players, and threw darts while blindfolded until you hit JR’s FA spending limit per year.   We should just pay the Astros to let their proprietary AI/algorithm make decisions.  Over the long term, that would save a ton of money that JR spends on KW and Hahn.

 

It appears that you missed my point entirely. 

[Dick Allen]

52 minutes ago, Eminor3rd said:

The widely-held misconception that the GM is primarily responsible for all the things listed in the OP is fascinating to me, because it leads fans to spend a lot of time and energy forming very strong opinions about these people as if they can actually know them — which, since no one actually can, on either side of the argument, leads almost to the creation of a fictional universe inside a fans mind where being the GM of a team is actually just like playing OOTP. Where people actually think that each decision is made by a single person, inside the near vacuum of how a fan views the game — virtually ignoring all the context of running a business, such as satisfying ownerships demands, balancing a budget that achieves revenue and profit goals, professional development of employees who have been delegated important tasks, etc.

There’s no doubt that this franchise has been a joke the last ten or fifteen years, from top to bottom — certainly in terms of performance on the field and, from all outward appearances, as a brand and promotional entity as well. But the line of thought that connects a poster talking about Rick Hahn as an intelligent person based on his education and mannerisms and another poster arguing the opposite using evidence such as the White Sox’ lack of success acquiring amateur talent in Latin America is bizarre. 

So if the GM doesn't make trades, sign free agents, and ultimately pull the trigger on draft picks, who does? Rick Hahn gets paid a lot of money to put his name on White Sox personnel decisions. 

Just because someone is very intelligent doesn't mean they have all the answers in baseball. There are plenty of guys in sports making decisions you wouldn't want taking the SAT for you, and plenty of guys you would want taking the SAT for you, you wouldn't want in Rick Hahn's position. 

You said the organization is a joke. What does that say about Rick Hahn, a guy for those 10-15 years who has been a lot closer to the top of the organizational chart than the bottom. I think they all have to go myself. The most bizarre thing was every bad move was a KW/JR decision, every good one a RH move of a couple of seasons ago. That seems to have gone by the boards, although there still seems to be a holdout or two. 

Edited November 11, 2019 by Dick Allen

[Greg Hibbard]

2013-2016 were very, very different approaches than 2017-present. They didn’t fire the GM but they went in a completely different direction. 

I appreciate all the work that went into the original post, but adding up all the raw numbers from two completely different approaches (and two different cultures) feels wildly disingenuous to me. 

Tim Anderson, Yoan Moncada, Lucas Giolito, James McCann, Eloy Jimenez, and Luis Robert appear to be excellent acquisitions. The jury is out on Nick Madrigal, Zach Collins, and Andrew Vaughn.

The 2017-present era feels much more like the 2011-2014 Astros to me. No it’s not a perfect analog, but the White Sox have been largely intentionally signing stopgap players waiting for key pieces to develop.

I don’t think RH is a great GM but I do think based on the line we chose in late 2016 we need to see this through, and it still looks very promising to me based on the 6-7 really good young core pieces we have. 

 

Edited November 11, 2019 by Greg Hibbard

[poppysox]

4 minutes ago, Greg Hibbard said:

2013-2016 were very, very different approaches than 2017-present. They didn’t fire the GM but they went in a completely different direction. 

I appreciate all the work that went into the original post, but adding up all the raw numbers from two completely different approaches (and two different cultures) feels wildly disingenuous to me. 

Tim Anderson, Yoan Moncada, Lucas Giolito, James McCann, Eloy Jimenez, and Luis Robert appear to be excellent acquisitions. The jury is out on Nick Madrigal, Zach Collins, and Andrew Vaughn.

The 2017-present era feels much more like the 2011-2014 Astros to me. No it’s not a perfect analog, but the White Sox have been largely intentionally signing stopgap players waiting for key pieces to develop.

I don’t think RH is a great GM but I do think based on the line we chose in late 2016 we need to see this through, and it still looks very promising to me based on the 6-7 really good young core pieces we have. 

 

I agree.

[Dick Allen]

15 minutes ago, Greg Hibbard said:

2013-2016 were very, very different approaches than 2017-present. They didn’t fire the GM but they went in a completely different direction. 

I appreciate all the work that went into the original post, but adding up all the raw numbers from two wildly different approaches (and two different cultures) feels wildly disingenuous to me. 

Tim Anderson, Yoan Moncada, Lucas Giolito, James McCann, Eloy Jimenez, and Luis Robert appear to be excellent acquisitions. The jury is out on Nick Madrigal, Zach Collins, and Andrew Vaughn.

The 2017-present era feels much more like the 2011-2014 Astros to me. No it’s not a perfect analog, but the White Sox have been largely intentionally signing stopgap players waiting for key pieces to develop.

I don’t think RH is a great GM but I do think based on the line we chose in late 2016 we need to see this through, and it still looks very promising to me based on the 6-7 really good young core pieces we have. 

 

The problem is, eventually the Sox will be at their 2014-2016 level and will need to make additions to see it through. It didn't work then, it hasn't worked since 2005, except in 2008. With basically the same guys making the decisions, what do we have to hang our collective hats on? Money-wise, when they "went for it" in 2015, Sale, Q, and Eaton, combined, made less than Abreu will make even if he signs for less than the QO. 

Hey, maybe they can have a good season, and make the playoffs once. OK, I can see that. But sustained winning? They have never done it. Did they just need 15-20 years of seasoning? This period of hurt is supposed to pay off with winning. So much winning that the Sox wanted no part of giving a 10 year contract last year because it would make it tough in years 9 and 10. 

Edited November 11, 2019 by Dick Allen

[SCCWS]

1 hour ago, Eminor3rd said:

The widely-held misconception that the GM is primarily responsible for all the things listed in the OP is fascinating to me, because it leads fans to spend a lot of time and energy forming very strong opinions about these people as if they can actually know them — which, since no one actually can, on either side of the argument, leads almost to the creation of a fictional universe inside a fans mind where being the GM of a team is actually just like playing OOTP. Where people actually think that each decision is made by a single person, inside the near vacuum of how a fan views the game — virtually ignoring all the context of running a business, such as satisfying ownerships demands, balancing a budget that achieves revenue and profit goals, professional development of employees who have been delegated important tasks, etc.

There’s no doubt that this franchise has been a joke the last ten or fifteen years, from top to bottom — certainly in terms of performance on the field and, from all outward appearances, as a brand and promotional entity as well. But the line of thought that connects a poster talking about Rick Hahn as an intelligent person based on his education and mannerisms and another poster arguing the opposite using evidence such as the White Sox’ lack of success acquiring amateur talent in Latin America is bizarre. 

But this franchise has had considerable success on their balance sheet. As I posted previously, that may be ownership's top priority.  Now credit for that does not automatically go to the FO but rather the success of MLB and the coat-tail effects that every team gets. For all we know, Kenny , Hahn and others may be making a killing if they have incentives in their contracts tied into bottom line profits.  

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

On 11/10/2019 at 5:21 AM, caulfield12 said:

Not to mention the Burdi pick.

Without Robert, this rebuild would be in serious jeopardy.  

Which is odd to me. They spent so much on Robert ,an IFA , right around $50M, and that included a lot of their own money along with the bonus pool money. Yet the bonus pool money which is given to them by the league right , hasn't produce anything. You'd think someone would realize those fairly minimal investments could produce someone as good as Robert or better for much much lower and you then only spend your own money on the scouting or running an academy or whatever other teams do to get a foothold in LATAM. But I also seem to remember  before they signed Robert the Sox got a big chunk of money again from the league for another reason and it was something the league gave every team. Money for selling the rights to streaming maybe ?

Hmm so basically I'm suggesting they really didn't spend their money on Robert but used the money the MLB gave them to acquire him and accepted the penalties because they don't really care that much about the investing their own resources in IFA.

Edited November 11, 2019 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

[Balta1701]

43 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Which is odd to me. They spent so much on Robert ,an IFA , right around $50M, and that included a lot of their own money along with the bonus pool money. Yet the bonus pool money which is given to them by the league right , hasn't produce anything. You'd think someone would realize those fairly minimal investments could produce someone as good as Robert or better for much much lower and you then only spend your own money on the scouting or running an academy or whatever other teams do to get a foothold in LATAM. But I also seem to remember  before they signed Robert the Sox got a big chunk of money again from the league for another reason and it was something the league gave every team. Money for selling the rights to streaming maybe ?

Hmm so basically I'm suggesting they really didn't spend their money on Robert but used the money the MLB gave them to acquire him and accepted the penalties because they don't really care that much about the investing their own resources in IFA.

Yes, MLB.TV was one of the earliest, best-developed streaming platforms for sports and MLB made a killing selling it, a $50-ish million check written to every team. 

[Greg Hibbard]

2 hours ago, Dick Allen said:

The problem is, eventually the Sox will be at their 2014-2016 level and will need to make additions to see it through. It didn't work then, it hasn't worked since 2005, except in 2008. With basically the same guys making the decisions, what do we have to hang our collective hats on? Money-wise, when they "went for it" in 2015, Sale, Q, and Eaton, combined, made less than Abreu will make even if he signs for less than the QO. 

Hey, maybe they can have a good season, and make the playoffs once. OK, I can see that. But sustained winning? They have never done it. Did they just need 15-20 years of seasoning? This period of hurt is supposed to pay off with winning. So much winning that the Sox wanted no part of giving a 10 year contract last year because it would make it tough in years 9 and 10. 

I still think Machado is overvalued for the contract he got, especially with respect to the actual numbers he put up. If he put up an wRC+ of 108 for the Sox people would have calling for Hahn’s head regardless of Machado’s defense. 

As for sustained winning, correct me if I’m wrong, but the 23 season period of 1990-2012, although it only produced one championship and a handful of playoff appearances, the Sox had an average winning percentage of .526 - an 85 win season average during that entire era. I can’t recall the exact placing but I think they are the 6th or 7th best winning percentage over those years. I know someone will undoubtedly post the graph condemning this team as the worst franchise in pro sports because of their lack of success at winning titles, but that 23 season era bought them a little bit of equity with me. If this rebuild goes nowhere, I think it’s open season, but in my eyes the organization generally was doing things right for a while and had a few bad seasons.