Rick Hahn's Resume as GM

[Whisox05]

2 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

If he was thinking he could get Machado without being the highest bidder, that's incompetence. Everyone, except apparently the White Sox, knew he was going to wherever he got the most money. Maybe they need to write these things on their dry boards on executive row on 35th Street. 

Maybe Jerry just needs to sell the team so someone can come in and actually try to put a team on the field that's competitive and not trying to finish in second or lower

[Dick Allen]

Just now, aeichhor said:

Maybe Jerry just needs to sell the team so someone can come in and actually try to put a team on the field that's competitive and not trying to finish in second or lower

I do think ultimately, that is what has to happen for this team to have a run like the Astros or even the Cubs, when people were b****ing at 95 win seasons. I like JR, but it's time. 

They are going to spend money this winter, but if RH goes 1 for 7 or 1 for 8 , next year won't be much better than this, and then money will suddenly start getting tight. 

[Ducksnort]

7 minutes ago, aeichhor said:

Maybe Jerry just needs to sell the team so someone can come in and actually try to put a team on the field that's competitive and not trying to finish in second or lower

I can't believe there are people like you out there that actually believe that he said that

[Eminor3rd]

5 hours ago, Dick Allen said:

So if the GM doesn't make trades, sign free agents, and ultimately pull the trigger on draft picks, who does? Rick Hahn gets paid a lot of money to put his name on White Sox personnel decisions. 

Just because someone is very intelligent doesn't mean they have all the answers in baseball. There are plenty of guys in sports making decisions you wouldn't want taking the SAT for you, and plenty of guys you would want taking the SAT for you, you wouldn't want in Rick Hahn's position. 

You said the organization is a joke. What does that say about Rick Hahn, a guy for those 10-15 years who has been a lot closer to the top of the organizational chart than the bottom. I think they all have to go myself. The most bizarre thing was every bad move was a KW/JR decision, every good one a RH move of a couple of seasons ago. That seems to have gone by the boards, although there still seems to be a holdout or two. 

My point is that Rick Hahn is way less personally responsible for all of those things as everyone seems to believe. He has the big paycheck and so he can be the scapegoat (that’s fair), but the actual issues with team’s ability to field a winner are much more numerous and they aren’t all in the GM’s ability to correct. 

[Dick Allen]

Just now, ScooterMcGee said:

I can't believe there are people like you out there that actually believe that he said that

I believe he said it, but I think it was tongue in cheek. I will never think JR wants to finish in 2nd place. It makes no sense. 

[Whisox05]

Just now, ScooterMcGee said:

I can't believe there are people like you out there that actually believe that he said that

Not saying I believe that but you have more second place or lower finishes in that last 20yr

[Dick Allen]

1 minute ago, Eminor3rd said:

My point is that Rick Hahn is way less personally responsible for all of those things as everyone seems to believe. He has the big paycheck and so he can be the scapegoat (that’s fair), but the actual issues with team’s ability to field a winner are much more numerous and they aren’t all in the GM’s ability to correct. 

I would think if another pretty smart guy like JR valued RH's baseball acumen, he would listen to his suggestions more often than not. So if they are not listening to him, and he is paid to be a scapegoat, I would think he would find something else to do. His fingerprints are on this organization. 

[caulfield12]

2 minutes ago, aeichhor said:

Not saying I believe that but you have more second place or lower finishes in that last 20yr

Perception is 90% of reality...the casual Sox fan who has become completely disengaged quite possibly could reach such a conclusion without taking a deep dive.

[Eminor3rd]

5 hours ago, SCCWS said:

But this franchise has had considerable success on their balance sheet. As I posted previously, that may be ownership's top priority.  Now credit for that does not automatically go to the FO but rather the success of MLB and the coat-tail effects that every team gets. For all we know, Kenny , Hahn and others may be making a killing if they have incentives in their contracts tied into bottom line profits.  

Right — that’s my point. It’s easy to blame Rick Hahn for signing mediocre, mid-level free agents for example. But what makes us think he ever had clearance to actually get the more expensive guys in the first place?

Theres a failure there, but who can we really attribute it to? We can’t know unless we are in the room.

When we don’t sign Gerrit Cole this year, we will all go “dang Rick Hahn, why wouldn’t he beat that offer? Doesn’t he know how much this team needs Gerrit Cole?” Of course he does! If he didn’t beat the offer it’s because he couldn’t. 

[Dick Allen]

If anyone here won the lottery and could buy the White Sox and Rick Hahn's contract was up, is there anyone willing to admit they would make every effort to retain him as the GM?

[Eminor3rd]

7 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

I would think if another pretty smart guy like JR valued RH's baseball acumen, he would listen to his suggestions more often than not. So if they are not listening to him, and he is paid to be a scapegoat, I would think he would find something else to do. His fingerprints are on this organization. 

For sure — all of the executives’ fingerprints are there. But there’s no way to know how much JR trusts RH. Or, for that matter, even if he DOES trust him completely, how many times RH has gone to JR and said “we need this guy, it’s gonna cost x” and JR has simply said it’s too much.

And that goes for way more than just player acquisition — it goes for investments in player dev as well. Coaches, facilities, technology, etc. 

Edited November 11, 2019 by Eminor3rd

[Whisox05]

3 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

Perception is 90% of reality...the casual Sox fan who has become completely disengaged quite possibly could reach such a conclusion without taking a deep dive.

Ya, barking up the wrong tree there budy saying I'm a casual fan. 

[caulfield12]

Just now, aeichhor said:

Ya, barking up the wrong tree there budy saying I'm a casual fan. 

Does the “average” Sox post on a Sox related message board five to ten times a day...?  

No way. 

[Dick Allen]

1 minute ago, Eminor3rd said:

For sure — all of the executives’ fingerprints are there. But there’s no way to know how much JR trusts RH. Or, for that matter, even if he DOES trust him completely, how many times RH has gone to JR and said “we need this guy, it’s gonna cost x” and JR has simply said it’s too much.

And that goes for way more than just player acquisition — it goes for investments in player dev as well. Coaches, facilities, technology, etc. 

Yet they are out there saying JR is going to unprecedented lengths financially to sign players they either do eventually sign, like with Abreu, and don't sign, like with Machado. 

Just remember, the money will be spent. 

 

[bmags]

3 minutes ago, Eminor3rd said:

For sure — all of the executives’ fingerprints are there. But there’s no way to know how much JR trusts RH. Or, for that matter, even if he DOES trust him completely, how many times RH has gone to JR and said “we need this guy, it’s gonna cost x” and JR has simply said it’s too much.

And that goes for way more than just player acquisition — it goes for investments in player dev as well. Coaches, facilities, technology, etc. 

I think it's reasonable to say that JR does not think there is good return on a lot of the player dev investments or international spending. But that is still part of Hahns job to sell that vision to the owner. And that is a skill.

The sox position themselves publicly as a team that doesn't need to be Tampa or the Oakland As or the Twins, but where they choose to spend that additional money just adds so little value. They just seem to be in denial on what kind of organization they are.

[Eminor3rd]

3 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

Yet they are out there saying JR is going to unprecedented lengths financially to sign players they either do eventually sign, like with Abreu, and don't sign, like with Machado. 

Just remember, the money will be spent. 

 

I’m just as skeptical/pessimistic as you about it. I’m just trying to point out that it’s a much larger problem than one man. 

[bmags]

Just now, Eminor3rd said:

I’m just as skeptical/pessimistic as you about it. I’m just trying to point out that it’s a much larger problem than one man. 

I get this, I do. If the sox fired Rick Hahn tomorrow and replaced him within their current structure, I'd have very little optimism that it was a new dawn.

However, he still has a great deal of responsibility here, and it feels like he can only get the org to focus on one thing at a time. They spent time on drafting and trades for 2017-18, now they move hostetler over so they can focus on FA.

[35thstreetswarm]

I'll be the first to admit Rick Hahn has had his share of misses; last offseason in particular was a shambling beclownment of the franchise.  But if you did an assessment like this (heavily weighting recent playoff appearances, wins, etc.) of any GM at the tail end of a multi-year rebuild it would look pretty terrible.  We are at the doorstep of the supposed contention period the rebuild was designed to usher in.  If the Sox take off on a multi-year tear all will be forgotten.  If they fall on their face RH will have no supporters left, and will probably be fired. 

Doing this exercise right now seems sort of pointless:  a bit like criticizing a movie for going over-budget, making controversial casting choices, and hiring a director of with a few flops on his resume as you're sitting in the theater watching the opening credits roll.  At this point just sit back and watch the movie.

[Eminor3rd]

5 minutes ago, bmags said:

I think it's reasonable to say that JR does not think there is good return on a lot of the player dev investments or international spending. But that is still part of Hahns job to sell that vision to the owner. And that is a skill.

The sox position themselves publicly as a team that doesn't need to be Tampa or the Oakland As or the Twins, but where they choose to spend that additional money just adds so little value. They just seem to be in denial on what kind of organization they are.

Yeah, the player dev angle is the one I’m most disappointed with. It isn’t that difficult to poach secrets from successful orgs — in fact I’ve been told it’s one of the things that those orgs worry about the most. All their hiring are public, you can physically see the facilities easily, and if you want, you can pretty much get any guy you want from the Astros/Yankees/etc. if you’re willing to give the person a big raise or promotion. The fact that the White Sox have objectively been one of the absolute worst at PD in an age where information is more freely available than ever speaks to some real troubling issues, whether it’s incompetence or a lack of willingness to invest. 

Edited November 11, 2019 by Eminor3rd

[caulfield12]

We used to have precisely two competitive advantages/niches, Cuban players and keeping the roster healthier than nearly anyone else.

Now what are we known for, in terms of an identity...?

Not spending on coaching staff, international market failure, drafting failure, lack of analytics driven approach, dearth of scouting/not investing efficiently, the Machado fiasco and loyalty to nearly everyone?

Edited November 11, 2019 by caulfield12

[Dick Allen]

4 minutes ago, Eminor3rd said:

I’m just as skeptical/pessimistic as you about it. I’m just trying to point out that it’s a much larger problem than one man. 

I agree with that. But, unfortunately, with 2005 on his resume, there is no way JR ever rids us of KW. 

[bmags]

1 minute ago, Eminor3rd said:

Yeah, the player dev angle is the one I’m most disappointed with. It isn’t that difficult to poach secrets from successful orgs — in fact I’ve been told it’s one of the things that those orgs worry about the most. All their hiring are public, you can physically see the facilities easily, and if you want, you can pretty much get any guy you want from the Astros/Yankees/etc. if you’re willing to give the person a big raise or promotion. The fact that the White Sox have objectively been one of the absolute worst at PD in an age where information is more freely available than ever speaks to some real Troy long issues, whether it’s incompetence or a lack of willingness to invest. 

For me it's international. I am quite honestly much more upset with the 2019-20 intl class being so clearly bungled or deprioritized than screwing up last offseason.

At least with player dev, though it is insane they didn't go crazy in spending on it when they decided to rebuild in 2017, it is clear they are trying to improve it to some average standard. With International, I'm not even sure if they are on that trajectory.

[Dick Allen]

1 minute ago, caulfield12 said:

We used to have two precisely competitive advantages/niches, Cuban players and keeping the roster healthier than nearly anyone else.

Now what are we known for, in terms of an identity...?

Not spending on coaching staff, international market failure, drafting failure, lack of analytics drive approach, dearth of scouting, and loyalty to nearly everyone?

What's weird is JR thinks LaRussa was his biggest mistake, but he was eventually a high priced manager. He did go after Leyland. But because they screwed over his buddy Lamont, that wasn't going to happen. Joe Maddon isn't any more expensive than Fred Hoiberg. You would think he would be up for something like that. 

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

1 minute ago, bmags said:

I get this, I do. If the sox fired Rick Hahn tomorrow and replaced him within their current structure, I'd have very little optimism that it was a new dawn.

However, he still has a great deal of responsibility here, and it feels like he can only get the org to focus on one thing at a time. They spent time on drafting and trades for 2017-18, now they move hostetler over so they can focus on FA.

I look at it like any other job.

I have a boss. My boss has been with the company a long time. He has a structure that has worked, and a belief system that has got him here. 

I have my own opinions. I can validate my thoughts and changes with stastical evidence supporting my claim. At the end of the day, something's wont change regardless of my efforts. All I can continue to do is quantify decisions, evaluate their monetary impact, and relay those conclusions and opinions to my superior. 

If my superior doesn't want to change a process, or change the way we execute a certain aspect of our business then so be it - I get back to the drawing board analyzing another area of opportunity in hope of getting him to sign off.

As an employee I can become frustrated believing my thoughts arent valued enough and leave, or I can be happy that my boss treats me respectfully, pays me competitively, and only holds me accountable for the things I can impact and change.

[Dick Allen]

If being your own man here isn't allowed, how was Larry Himes able to stick it out 3 years? Obviously, if he would have placated JR a bit more, he would have been re-upped, but still, 3 years, builds a 94 win team with the lowest payroll in baseball, and really set them up for a really good run, only to be squandered. If Rick could have built this team up to a 94 win team in 3 seasons, if JR dropped him, he would have no problem finding another job. One difference, Larry hit on guys in the draft, and got good value in small trades. Although it is never mentioned, Larry drafted Ray Durham in the 5th round. When is the last time the White Sox have drafted someone after the first couple of rounds that became really good? 

Edited November 11, 2019 by Dick Allen