Rick Hahn's Resume as GM

[BackDoorBreach]

5 minutes ago, WBWSF said:

What posters seem to forget is that the White Sox under Hahn have been one of the most profitable teams in MLB. Forbes magazine said that the 2018 CWS were the 6th most profitable team in MLB. I would make a guess that the 2019 CWS were just as profitable. Low payrolls equal huge profits for JR and his investors. With the new local TV contract the team will be more profitable. I don't expect  Hahn spending a lot of money this off season on free agents. Hope I'm wrong, but we'll have to wait and see. I've said it before and I'll say it again the franchise would be better off if I was the GM. I write JR a letter every year requesting to be interviewed for the White Sox GM job. So far I have not received a response from him.

Do you have his number by chance?  I need to call him and tell him don't give Abreu anything more than a QO for 2020.  

[bmags]

1 hour ago, Y2Jimmy0 said:

It was absolutely not his call to accelerate it. You honestly believe that it was Rick Hahn's idea to add during that 2014 off-season instead of continuing on a "rebuilding" path after the Abreu signing? 

I honestly don’t care. That he is bad at convincing his superiors of the best way to operate the things he was charged with operating is an issue, that he was so terrible at executing the acceleration was the other.

[bmags]

35 minutes ago, Y2Jimmy0 said:

I am of the belief that Hahn/KW added Jay and Alonso because they knew their owner wouldn't be the highest bidder. They knew that the player wanted $300 million. They couldn't go there. And yes, Kenny is very involved. He's the Executive VP of the organization. Hahn has lots of autonomy and handles the day to day responsibilities of the club. If trades are made and free agents are signed though, you better believe Kenny is on board. 

Then they should instead have spent their efforts convincing their boss to spend considerably more money on their player development and international programs instead of targeting free agents they were unlikely to sign.

[bmags]

54 minutes ago, AJSOX said:

Is he or is it KW and Reinsdorf? or perhaps all 3 are to blame but seeing as Hahn is the low man of the 3 it's hard for me to point a finger at him alone. I do believe it takes a team to make decisions

If people were looking at any other team they would have no problem pointing fingers at the VP of baseball operations as a major reason for the teams performance and not making excuses because the people below him may be giving him bad advice.

[caulfield12]

3 hours ago, poppysox said:

As the poster who called Rick Hahn "a very smart guy" and expressed optimism in his abilities to take us to the next level...I will again express my opinion on this subject.  Most fair minded people would agree that a BA from the University Michigan, a Harvard Law School degree and a MBA from Kellogg School of Management would require a fair amount of intelligence.  Several years of work in the role of being a sports agent and 17 years in FO roles is an impressive background for the position of GM.  

The reality of the FO is that our owner is one of the most hands on owners in all of baseball and that owner has a great deal of confidence in KW.  Therefore any GM for this organization has to deal with that 3 headed monster.  I believe that the last 4 seasons have given RH a bigger voice in the decisions we are discussing...how the rebuild is accomplished, trades, extensions, drafts and free agent decisions.  Hahn's negotiated extensions on Eaton, Anderson, Sale and Q where excellent.  The subsequent trades for top talent form the backbone of our period of contention.  Top baseball people sing the praises of that group.  I think the recent drafts of Madrigal & Vaughn are excellent with the Jury still out on Collins.  The acquiring of Robert & Abreu are also great but perhaps less clear if all credit for those goes to Hahn or the 3 headed monster. 

RH is being held accountable for results as it should be but he operates under guidelines set by ownership of budget and many personnel decisions such as Cooper and maybe even Ricky.  Although I understand the frustration of chasing top end free agent talent last offseason...I don't blame RH for making what they felt was their best effort and coming in second.  It happens.  I also try to remember that hindsight is 20/20.  In hindsight Alonso was a disaster but none of us saw his performance coming when he was signed.

Lastly I would like to say that many posters have pithy remarks of what other posters have to say.  Try posting your own ideas of what should be done rather than shooting holes in others posts.

 

Fulmer, Collins and Burger...Hansen and Burdi (those will be defended as not Hahn’s fault, and Hansen at least had potential)...Adams...Call/Fisher and the “advanced college hitters” philosophy in addition to drafting a plethora of potential high leverage college relievers who have mainly disappointed...the backsliding of the five remaining OF prospects (other than Walker, who might be “solid” at best).

[poppysox]

1 hour ago, NCsoxfan said:

Have we ever seen rumors that he was being considered for other positions?

Yes...St. Louis, Pittsburg & Seattle.

[caulfield12]

13 minutes ago, poppysox said:

Yes...St. Louis, Pittsburg & Seattle.

He belongs on a “profit maximizing” team like the latter two...and one of only two franchises to go longer w/o a playoff appearance to boot,

Btw, what MLB GM’s would NOT have succeeded in signing those 5-6 long-term extensions he’s most noted for?

And is the Jimenez extension creating nearly as much surplus value?

Finally, does he get any blame then for not keeping Moncada, Giolito and Robert in similar fashion?   Well, it’s easy to anticipate they won’t sign, but didn’t we all pretty much foresee how hard that will/would turn out to be?

 

Edited November 9, 2019 by caulfield12

[poppysox]

1 minute ago, caulfield12 said:

He belongs on a “profit maximizing” team like the latter two...and one of only two franchises to go longer w/o a playoff appearance to boot,

Btw, what MLB GM’s would NOT have succeeded in signing those 5-6 long-term extensions he’s most noted for?

And is the Jimenez extension creating nearly as much surplus value?

Finally, does he get any blame then for not keeping Moncada, Giolito and Robert in similar fashion?   Well, it’s easy to anticipate they won’t sign, but didn’t we all pretty much foresee how hard that will/would turn out to be?

 

It is true that the system is rigged in favor of a few ultra rich teams.  I would love to see baseball have a hard Cap and a hard floor.  If teams had to spend 150 and couldn't spend over 175 baseball would have much more true competitive balance.  In todays baseball world there would be no Mr. Cub type players.  Ernie Banks would have been playing for the Yankees or Dodgers.

[NCsoxfan]

1 hour ago, WBWSF said:

What posters seem to forget is that the White Sox under Hahn have been one of the most profitable teams in MLB. Forbes magazine said that the 2018 CWS were the 6th most profitable team in MLB. I would make a guess that the 2019 CWS were just as profitable. Low payrolls equal huge profits for JR and his investors. With the new local TV contract the team will be more profitable. I don't expect  Hahn spending a lot of money this off season on free agents. Hope I'm wrong, but we'll have to wait and see. I've said it before and I'll say it again the franchise would be better off if I was the GM. I write JR a letter every year requesting to be interviewed for the White Sox GM job. So far I have not received a response from him.

Are you a real life George Costanza?

[caulfield12]

51 minutes ago, poppysox said:

It is true that the system is rigged in favor of a few ultra rich teams.  I would love to see baseball have a hard Cap and a hard floor.  If teams had to spend 150 and couldn't spend over 175 baseball would have much more true competitive balance.  In todays baseball world there would be no Mr. Cub type players.  Ernie Banks would have been playing for the Yankees or Dodgers.

Yes, but the relative consistency of the Rays, Indians, Cardinals, Brewers, Twins, A’s, Braves proves it can be done...all teams that really are good to excellent/superior at talent identification and development...it’s certainly not impossible if you’re below the $160-170 million “cut line,” but it’s getting increasingly difficult with the proliferation of the same 4-5 super teams at the top.

And the plus side is a team like Washington went from missing the playoffs, losing their franchise icon and almost firing a manager  twice (let’s not forget they were 19-31 to start the year) to the Wild Card and then facing elimination three “series” in a row, including taking out Cole once and Verlander twice in Houston.  

Of course, they were a Top 8 payroll team as well (but at least have the argument that not giving Harper $300+ million turned out to be the smartest move.)

Unfortunately, there’s no balanced schedule based on previous year’s record like the NFL.  There’s tremendous parity as result, and then the Patriots as an anomaly/outlier.

 

Maybe we should just hire “Georgie” and follow Jerry’s advice of doing the opposite of whatever his gut instinct is telling him...?  

 

Edited November 9, 2019 by caulfield12

[pcq]

Unlike poopysox I demurrer to the claim that the owner is hands on. I do not really see that. 

[SCCWS]

4 hours ago, poppysox said:

JR tends to operate behind the scenes but isn't a front man for media purposes.  Jerry is a fan just like us.  How many of us would keep our noses out of it?  Not many of us I would wager.  It's in the blood of a die hard fan to have strong opinions.

But again, I ask the question how much is an 83 year old  involved in the White Sox operation since you indicated he is hands-on.  He owns multiple businesses.  Some at that age have health and/or memory issues and others are more alert than people half their age. I was asking those who live in the Chicago area if they have seen Jerry lately do any  interviews relative to the status of the White Sox. 

[poppysox]

1 hour ago, pcq said:

Unlike poopysox I demurrer to the claim that the owner is hands on. I do not really see that. 

Just for the record...I know some 10 year old naughty boys who would think that was funny.  Unless you are a 10 year old...grow up.

[Sarava]

It's hard to know what is his fault or not his fault. It felt before the rebuild started that Hahn was restricted, or like his hands were tied. For instance, the Tatis Jr. trade smells like a KW move now, just like it did then. Ultimately we're not in the front office and who knows what the truth is.

I will say I've liked the trades that launched the rebuild, so I'm willing to let this rebuild play out and see how Hahn does. This winter is incredibly important. The free agent market has it's limitations, but that doesn't mean he can't swing some trades if things aren't there to sign. I'm expecting the Sox to look like a playoff caliber team by February/March, and if they aren't, that will largely be on Rick Hahn.

[caulfield12]

1 hour ago, Sarava said:

It's hard to know what is his fault or not his fault. It felt before the rebuild started that Hahn was restricted, or like his hands were tied. For instance, the Tatis Jr. trade smells like a KW move now, just like it did then. Ultimately we're not in the front office and who knows what the truth is.

I will say I've liked the trades that launched the rebuild, so I'm willing to let this rebuild play out and see how Hahn does. This winter is incredibly important. The free agent market has it's limitations, but that doesn't mean he can't swing some trades if things aren't there to sign. I'm expecting the Sox to look like a playoff caliber team by February/March, and if they aren't, that will largely be on Rick Hahn.

Fwiw, Paddy and KW were much more heavily involved in talking to Tatis’ father and bringing him on board than Hahn.

The more likely answer is Hahn knew very little about Tatis before the trade, and/or Paddy didn’t push back hard enough, since he was the most involved.

Or they both simply acquiesced because JR was more concerned with the money coming over from SD than the talent going out.

Edited November 10, 2019 by caulfield12

[Soxfest]

No playoff appearances under Hahn........zero

 

[Sarava]

1 hour ago, caulfield12 said:

Fwiw, Paddy and KW were much more heavily involved in talking to Tatis’ father and bringing him on board than Hahn.

The more likely answer is Hahn knew very little about Tatis before the trade, and/or Paddy didn’t push back hard enough, since he was the most involved.

Or they both simply acquiesced because JR was more concerned with the money coming over from SD than the talent going out.

I was more getting at acquiring a has-been after his prime (Shields) as KW did over and over during his tenure as GM.

[GreenSox]

He's been a dreadful GM at building up a team.   He failed the first time, and, if we consider last year as the first year of the build up, he's off to another poor start.
The problem is that  a)he doesn't know talent; b) instead of assembling an ambitious staff of quality baseball minds and one that  would balance out his weaknesses,  he surrounds himself with yes-men; and c)takes the lazy way out when available.  

Edited November 10, 2019 by GreenSox

[Whisox05]

19 minutes ago, GreenSox said:

He's been a dreadful GM at building up a team.   He failed the first time, and, if we consider last year as the first year of the build up, he's off to another poor start.
The problem is that  a)he doesn't know talent; b) instead of assembling an ambitious staff of quality baseball minds and one that  would balance out his weaknesses,  he surrounds himself with yes-men; and c)takes the lazy way out when available.  

Not sure how you are counting last year the build up when they where just in their second year of going through a tear down. Cubs, astros, and royals went through 3 really bad season before they started seeing the improvement to to start winning. Astros took took 5 season to finally get back to winning and another couple more till they won the world series. Cubs went through 4 seasons of losing before getting into the playoffs. Sox probably would be more ahead if some of the main pieces didn't get hit with injuries and delayed improvements. So if next yr they don't start seeing major improvements then you can start complaining about not see it built up enough. Sox actually improved 10 games from last yr with major holes in the rotation and lineup. Hopefully nothing but continued up from here. 

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

14 hours ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Alright, recently a poster who shall remain nameless called Rick Hahn "a very smart guy" and expressed optimism in his ability to take us to the next level.  As such, I thought it would be fitting to summarize Rick's tenure as GM (both the good & the bad) and see what people really think.  If I'm missing anything of substance below, please let me know as I'm trying to be objective here as possible.  With that said here we go:

  ▪ Duration:  7 seasons (2013 to 2019)

  ▪ W/L Record:  491-642 (.433 winning %)

  ▪ Playoff Appearances:  Zero

  ▪ Winning Seasons:  Zero

  ▪ Avg Central Finish:  4.0 (3rd x 1, 4th x 5, 5th x 1)

  ▪ Free Agency:  $256M for 20 bWAR ($13M / win) │ Abreu = $68M for 21 bWAR │All Others = $188M for -1 bWAR  (per SoxMachine)

  ▪ Extensions:  Sale = 7/$60M (3 FA years) │ Quainta = 7/$44M (2 FA years) │ Eaton = 7/$44M (3 FA years) │ Anderson = 8/$52M (2 FA years) │ Jimenez = 8/$78M (1 FA year)

  ▪ Sell Trades:  Hector Santiago & Brandon Jacobs for Adam Eaton │ Addison Read for Matt Davidson │ Jake Peavy for Avi Garcia, Frankie Montas, Clueluis Rondon, & J.B. Wendelken │ Gordon Beckham for Yency Almonte │ Zach Duke for Charlie Tilson │ Chris Sale for Yoan Moncada, Michael Kopech, Luis Basabe, & Victor Diaz │ Adam Eaton for Lucas Giolito, Reynaldo Lopez, & Dane Dunning │ Jose Quintana for Eloy Jimenez, Dylan Cease, Matt Rose, & Bryant Flete │ Anthony Swarzak for Ryan Cordell │ David Robertson, Tommy Kahnle, & Todd Frazier for Blake Rutherford, Ian Clarkin, & Tito Polo

  ▪ Buy Trades:  Marcus Semien, Chris Bassitt, Josh Phegley, & Rangel Ravelo for Jeff Samardzija │ Yency Almonte for Tommy Kahnle │ Zack Erwin & J.B. Wendelken for Brett Lawrie │ Trayce Thompson, Frankie Montas, & Micah Johnson for Todd Frazier │ Erik Johnson & Fernando Tatis Jr for James Shields │ Justin Yurchak for Manny Banuelos │ Omar Narvaez for Alex Colome │ Yordi Rosario for Ivan Nova │ Alex for Yonder Alonso

  ▪ Bonus Slot Trades:  Alex Katz for $756k in Bonus Slot │Undisclosed Bonus Slot for Ryan Burr │ $500k in Bonus Slot for Thyago Vieira │ $1.3M* in Bonus Slot for Yeyson Yrizarri │ $1.5M in Bonus Slot for Caleb Frare │ $1M* in Bonus Slot for Hunter Schryver │ Undisclosed bonus slot for Ricardo Pinto │$1M in Bonus Slot for Nate Jones' $1.25M buyout, Ray Castro, & Joseph Jarneski │ $250k in Bonus Slot for Wellington Castillo's $500k buyout & Jonah McReynolds

  ▪ Misc Moves:  Non-tendered Tyler Flowers (2015) │ Selected Jimmy Cordero off waivers (2019)

  ▪ Drafting:  Tim Anderson = 7.8 fWAR (2013/01) │ Carlos Rodon = 6.9 fWAR (2014/01) │ Jace Fry = 1.2 fWAR (2014/03) │ Aaron Bummer = 1.6 fWAR (2014/19) │ Nick Madrigal = Top 100 Prospect (2018/01) │ Andrew Vaughn = Top 100 Prospect (2019/01)

  ▪ LatAm Signings:  Fernando Tatis Jr = 3.6 fWAR (2015 class) │ Luis Robert = Top 100 Prospect (2017 class)

  ▪ Player Dev Rank:  30th / -$350M in value generated (per Driveline)

You could also list the search for finding undervalued assets by listing all he scrubs he brought in  hoping someone would break out. AJ Reed, Palka, Gillaspie, Manny Banuelos, Dylan Covey Ervin Santana . You could probably find another 10 names some acquired by trade like Banuelos who you did list , others being waiver claims. It's a pretty big failure not to find a diamond in the rough when  4 or 5 of them seem to pop up every year. Cleveland found Luplow and Mercado. Dodgers found a few besides Max Muncy. Astros scammed the Dodgers for Yordan Alvarez. Maybe you put this all under player development /talent evaluation. Tampa does it all the time . Oaklands pretty good at it too. Maybe many of those stiffs are listed in the negative FA values. I haven;t checked the Sox Machine article.

 A good way to find most transactions is just google it by year such as "2019 White Sox player transactions" and see who has the most comprehensive list.

Edited November 10, 2019 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

[Quin]

12 hours ago, sullythered said:

I feel like he was pretty hamstrung by Kenny for the first few years of his "GM" tenure, and the rebuild marks the time when he actually got to start doing what he wanted.  In my view, Hahn's defining move is getting players to sign long-term deals early, which drastically raises their value.  I'm happy with the young talent that he has acquired since the rebuild began.  I was hoping the Sox would get Machado, but the fact of the matter is Moncada (in his breakout year) was pretty significantly better than Manny last year.  

Last season would have been early in a rebuild to start adding veterans, I think.  Now that several of the young players have shown that they are good (potentially great) major league players, and a couple more are right on the cusp, the Sox know what areas need to be addressed via free agency.  Jerry's track record is very poor in regards to free agents, but the White Sox have literally never been in this position, financially, so I'm giving him this winter to change his stripes.  They could add three absolutely premiere FAs, and still only put themselves near 11th or 12th in payroll (where they were from '05 until the start of the rebuild).  

 

This is Hahn's one chance, though, in my eyes.  This rebuild is his baby, I think.  It's the first thing that doesn't feel like it has Kenny's fingerprints on it.  I am very happy with the early returns on the added youth, but if the rebuild does not produce a multi-year playoff contender at some point, then Hahn has failed, and he must go.  I think the "beginning of the end" of a GM's first attempt at a rebuild is a pretty slanted spot to judge him, statistically.  But, of course, I am an optimist by nature.

This has always kind of been my opinion. It was clear Hahn pushed the rebuild vs. the Go-for-Its in Jerry and Kenny. 

9 hours ago, Y2Jimmy0 said:

Rick Hahn hasn't maximized the available resources that have been afforded to him. This is a triumvirate though and it's tough to pin any singular move on Rick Hahn specifically. They don't spend in the international market but that's because the owner is risk averse in regards to forking over $$ to 16-years olds. The club's pro scouting operation is horrendous and they've wasted money in recent years, albeit in years they were attempting to lose on purpose, on players that didn't recoup much value. Last off-season is the perfect example. The Manny Machado miss is not Rick Hahn's fault. Hahn would have just paid Machado 10/310 but that's wasn't his call. On the other hand, he can absolutely be blamed for the Kelvin Herrera signing for example. The Sox are run like a mob family. Hahn handles the day to day and takes the arrows generally while KW still makes many of the decisions and Reinsdorf provides the budget but is never heard from. I think we'd all prefer a different front office but the owner is by far the biggest issue. 

But at this point - this is a key thing. Hahn has great trades - the Big Three of Sale, Q, and Eaton. He gets great extensions done. Selling the international space when they couldn't use it was genius.

But if it was Jerry's call or not, selling it now is foolish. He's made more bad signings than good (McCann being the standout good), the drafts haven't been stellar, and playe development has been bad.

8 hours ago, bmags said:

I honestly don’t care. That he is bad at convincing his superiors of the best way to operate the things he was charged with operating is an issue, that he was so terrible at executing the acceleration was the other.

This is key. His job is to convince Jerry that actually investing in LatAm. the minors, and analytics is massively important.

8 hours ago, Chicago White Sox said:

You haven’t received a response because you are a legit crazy person.

This is the most accurate post of all time.

[caulfield12]

57 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

You could also list the search for finding undervalued assets by listing all he scrubs he brought in  hoping someone would break out. AJ Reed, Palka, Gillaspie, Manny Banuelos, Dylan Covey Ervin Santana . You could probably find another 10 names some acquired by trade like Banuelos who you did list , others being waiver claims. It's a pretty big failure not to find a diamond in the rough when  4 or 5 of them seem to pop up every year. Cleveland found Luplow and Mercado. Dodgers found a few besides Max Muncy. Astros scammed the Dodgers for Yordan Alvarez. Maybe you put this all under player development /talent evaluation. Tampa does it all the time . Oaklands pretty good at it too. Maybe many of those stiffs are listed in the negative FA values. I haven;t checked the Sox Machine article.

 A good way to find most transactions is just google it by year such as "2019 White Sox player transactions" and see who has the most comprehensive list.

Chris Taylor from the M’s.  Turner from the Mets.   Ryu, Maeda, Hill, etc., were all scouting victories.   Obviously, selecting Buehler so low.

[caulfield12]

1 hour ago, aeichhor said:

Not sure how you are counting last year the build up when they where just in their second year of going through a tear down. Cubs, astros, and royals went through 3 really bad season before they started seeing the improvement to to start winning. Astros took took 5 season to finally get back to winning and another couple more till they won the world series. Cubs went through 4 seasons of losing before getting into the playoffs. Sox probably would be more ahead if some of the main pieces didn't get hit with injuries and delayed improvements. So if next yr they don't start seeing major improvements then you can start complaining about not see it built up enough. Sox actually improved 10 games from last yr with major holes in the rotation and lineup. Hopefully nothing but continued up from here. 

The difference is those teams all had to start their rebuilds with primarily Top 10 draft picks.

The Cubs were an exception.  They already know had Baez, Rizzo and jump-started with Lester and Contreras lurking as a stealth future MVP candidate at catcher (who nobody knew much about.)

But the Astros and Royals until the finishing touches like Cueto, Shields, Zobrist and Chapman were 70-80% constructed out of draft picks.

If you take away having those three immensely-valuable contracts to trade (not to mention Frazier/Kahnle), the rebuild is basically Anderson, Rodon, Robert, Madrigal, Abreu and Vaughn...and is closer to being torn down and gutted than supplemented with free agents.

Somehow, we’ve managed to turn one of the worst records in baseball over the past decade into a #21-24 farm system by mid season of 2020.   And it’s certainly not because we’ve graduated multiple players from each draft class stretching from 2015-2018 into the major leagues.

[poppysox]

4 hours ago, caulfield12 said:

The difference is those teams all had to start their rebuilds with primarily Top 10 draft picks.

The Cubs were an exception.  They already know had Baez, Rizzo and jump-started with Lester and Contreras lurking as a stealth future MVP candidate at catcher (who nobody knew much about.)

But the Astros and Royals until the finishing touches like Cueto, Shields, Zobrist and Chapman were 70-80% constructed out of draft picks.

If you take away having those three immensely-valuable contracts to trade (not to mention Frazier/Kahnle), the rebuild is basically Anderson, Rodon, Robert, Madrigal, Abreu and Vaughn...and is closer to being torn down and gutted than supplemented with free agents.

Somehow, we’ve managed to turn one of the worst records in baseball over the past decade into a #21-24 farm system by mid season of 2020.   And it’s certainly not because we’ve graduated multiple players from each draft class stretching from 2015-2018 into the major leagues.

If we didn't have "three immensely-valuable contracts to trade" we would have had higher draft picks.  Can't have it both ways.

[caulfield12]

18 minutes ago, poppysox said:

If we didn't have "three immensely-valuable contracts to trade" we would have had higher draft picks.  Can't have it both ways.

The point is that seven close to major league-ready prospects in Moncada, Kopech, Giolito, Lopez, Dunning, Jimenez and Cease SHOULD have been a bigger head start than having to wait for five first rounders (especially high schoolers) to mature.    And no team has had 1-1 to 1-3 for more than three consecutive years.