Balta1701 Posted November 14, 2019 Share Posted November 14, 2019 14 minutes ago, SCCWS said: That really kills their Luxury tax. They don't pay Greinke, AZ does. If the Astros gave Greinke away for virtually no prospect return, would you take on his full remaining contract and leave the Astros with the money coming from Arizona? I might. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmags Posted November 14, 2019 Share Posted November 14, 2019 Man has there ever been a time recently where there hasn't been the obvious SP trade candidate? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KennyPowers Posted November 14, 2019 Share Posted November 14, 2019 On 11/13/2019 at 8:42 AM, Harold's Leg Lift said: Jon Gray https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2019/11/rockies-trade-rumors-jon-gray.html Interesting parallels to Gerrit Cole. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiSox59 Posted November 14, 2019 Share Posted November 14, 2019 1 hour ago, Balta1701 said: If the Astros gave Greinke away for virtually no prospect return, would you take on his full remaining contract and leave the Astros with the money coming from Arizona? I might. Effectively, would I sign a 36 year old Grienke to a 2 year $70M deal in this market? Probably not. I'd rather bet a slightly more money for double the years on Wheeler. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squirmin' for Yermin Posted November 14, 2019 Share Posted November 14, 2019 2 hours ago, Balta1701 said: If the Astros gave Greinke away for virtually no prospect return, would you take on his full remaining contract and leave the Astros with the money coming from Arizona? I might. Obviously.. But they wouldn't. They literally gave the DBacks two good prospects for him. They could get the same back Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Look at Ray Ray Run Posted November 14, 2019 Share Posted November 14, 2019 I may be in the minority, but I am still a huge Jon Gray believer. He doesn't use great sequencing, and his inconsistent, but there's an elite starter in there somewhere just waiting to break out! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squirmin' for Yermin Posted November 14, 2019 Share Posted November 14, 2019 Just now, Look at Ray Ray Run said: I may be in the minority, but I am still a huge Jon Gray believer. He doesn't use great sequencing, and his inconsistent, but there's an elite starter in there somewhere just waiting to break out! I also am a believer, and he is the perfect guy to take a risk on.. But what would it take? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted November 14, 2019 Share Posted November 14, 2019 13 minutes ago, cjgalloway said: Obviously.. But they wouldn't. They literally gave the DBacks two good prospects for him. They could get the same back Effectively they would be turning those 2 good prospects into the last 2 months of Greinke and the extra $20 million they got from the D-Backs, to allow them to sign Cole/Wheeler while still staying under the tax line (they'd probably have to move Reddick also but again, do-able). Turning those 2 prospects into 2 months of a pitcher to make a run at the series and $20 million for the next 2 years, not a bad move on paper. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squirmin' for Yermin Posted November 14, 2019 Share Posted November 14, 2019 Just now, Balta1701 said: Effectively they would be turning those 2 good prospects into the last 2 months of Greinke and the extra $20 million they got from the D-Backs, to allow them to sign Cole/Wheeler while still staying under the tax line (they'd probably have to move Reddick also but again, do-able). Turning those 2 prospects into 2 months of a pitcher to make a run at the series and $20 million for the next 2 years, not a bad move on paper. I'm not saying it wasn't a good deal... I am saying they won't give away Greinke for much less than they gave up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted November 14, 2019 Share Posted November 14, 2019 Just now, cjgalloway said: I'm not saying it wasn't a good deal... I am saying they won't give away Greinke for much less than they gave up. If they got to keep the money...they wouldn't be. That money is not tied to Greinke, they could keep it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Look at Ray Ray Run Posted November 14, 2019 Share Posted November 14, 2019 1 hour ago, KennyPowers said: https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2019/11/rockies-trade-rumors-jon-gray.html Interesting parallels to Gerrit Cole. Sure, and while I'm a huge fan of Gray I can say that he's an odd case. He's actually been terrible away from Coors for a few years now; leading me to believe that he doesn't know how to manage the movement change his pitches experience on the road vs at home. His fastball is hard like Cole's, but it's flatter and easier to hit. Cole has better movement and spin rates, plus he locates much better. I am a firm believer that Gray can become an ace with a change to his sequencing and a change of scenery where his pitches react similarly on the road and at home. He's not broken, but there's also a chance that Gray never really finds the consistency with his command and is a talented but #2 or #3. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Look at Ray Ray Run Posted November 14, 2019 Share Posted November 14, 2019 4 minutes ago, cjgalloway said: I also am a believer, and he is the perfect guy to take a risk on.. But what would it take? Probably not as much as we'd assume. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steveno89 Posted November 14, 2019 Share Posted November 14, 2019 1 minute ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said: Sure, and while I'm a huge fan of Gray I can say that he's an odd case. He's actually been terrible away from Coors for a few years now; leading me to believe that he doesn't know how to manage the movement change his pitches experience on the road vs at home. His fastball is hard like Cole's, but it's flatter and easier to hit. Cole has better movement and spin rates, plus he locates much better. I am a firm believer that Gray can become an ace with a change to his sequencing and a change of scenery where his pitches react similarly on the road and at home. He's not broken, but there's also a chance that Gray never really finds the consistency with his command and is a talented but #2 or #3. What would one year of Gray be worth trading? Interesting to see Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Look at Ray Ray Run Posted November 14, 2019 Share Posted November 14, 2019 3 minutes ago, steveno89 said: What would one year of Gray be worth trading? Interesting to see I'd move Stiever for Jon Gray, and then re-sign Gray to an extension. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted November 14, 2019 Share Posted November 14, 2019 1 minute ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said: I'd move Stiever for Jon Gray, and then re-sign Gray to an extension. This concept reminds me of the Mark Teahen trade. Convince yourself a guy is better than he is, trade for him, extend him based on how good you've decided he is. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Look at Ray Ray Run Posted November 14, 2019 Share Posted November 14, 2019 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Balta1701 said: This concept reminds me of the Mark Teahen trade. Convince yourself a guy is better than he is, trade for him, extend him based on how good you've decided he is. Jon Gray is significantly better than Mark Teahen. I'm not sure how you view them as similar. Gray is averaging 3 WAR per season since he came into the league and he's only 28 years old; Mark Teahen was coming off two years with the Royals with a total WAR of -.8. It's easier to turn a 3 WAR player into a 5 WAR player than it is to turn a 0 WAR player into a 3 WAR player. Edited November 14, 2019 by Look at Ray Ray Run Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harold's Leg Lift Posted November 14, 2019 Share Posted November 14, 2019 16 minutes ago, steveno89 said: What would one year of Gray be worth trading? Interesting to see He has 2 years before reaching free agency. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted November 14, 2019 Share Posted November 14, 2019 7 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said: It's easier to turn a 3 WAR player into a 5 WAR player than it is to turn a 0 WAR player into a 3 WAR player. Is it really? This is a pretty big claim with no evidence provided. How do you assess that? Most MLB players who get to 3 WAR start off near 0, so that seems fairly common. Very few become 5 WAR players. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Look at Ray Ray Run Posted November 14, 2019 Share Posted November 14, 2019 1 minute ago, Balta1701 said: Is it really? This is a pretty big claim with no evidence provided. How do you assess that? Most MLB players who get to 3 WAR start off near 0, so that seems fairly common. Very few become 5 WAR players. The difference between a 0 WAR player and a 3 WAR player is the difference between a AAA replacement and an above average regular. The difference between a 3 WAR player and a 5 WAR player is the difference between an above average regular and an all-star. Mark Tehen shouldnt have been a big leaguer - so giving him a contract in hopes of unlocking something hidden is fools gold. Jon Gray is an above average big leaguer - so trading for him in his prime in hopes of unlocking the next tier of his skill set is reasonable. I would take the time to quantify my claim, but respectfully I've realized it won't change your opinion (or most peoples at that) so it would be a waste of my time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Look at Ray Ray Run Posted November 14, 2019 Share Posted November 14, 2019 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Balta1701 said: Is it really? This is a pretty big claim with no evidence provided. How do you assess that? Most MLB players who get to 3 WAR start off near 0, so that seems fairly common. Very few become 5 WAR players. What??? Mark Teahen was a negative WAR player for over 300 games the two years prior to the sox signing him. Jon Gray has been the 39th ranked starter according got FG over the past 2 seasons. Those two players are nothing alike. Edited November 14, 2019 by Look at Ray Ray Run Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poppysox Posted November 16, 2019 Share Posted November 16, 2019 On 11/14/2019 at 1:45 PM, Balta1701 said: If the Astros gave Greinke away for virtually no prospect return, would you take on his full remaining contract and leave the Astros with the money coming from Arizona? I might. Approximately 95 million left on last 3 years...not nuts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheFutureIsNear Posted November 16, 2019 Share Posted November 16, 2019 18 minutes ago, poppysox said: Approximately 95 million left on last 3 years...not nuts. Greinke‘s contract with the Astros is 2/53M right now...why would that be a negative value? No way Greinke is getting traded for nothing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poppysox Posted November 16, 2019 Share Posted November 16, 2019 48 minutes ago, TheFutureIsNear said: Greinke‘s contract with the Astros is 2/53M right now...why would that be a negative value? No way Greinke is getting traded for nothing. Balta raised a hypothetical question...I responded. My resource said 3 years left at 95 million. That's all I know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wsox05 Posted November 16, 2019 Share Posted November 16, 2019 The Astros aren’t trading Greinke and keeping Cole. The reason they traded for Greinke is because of the impending Cole departure. Cole doesn’t want to be in Houston. I live in Houston and we’ve known he isn’t coming back for a while. The Astros will say they’ll make a run at keeping him just to appease their fans. They’re going to be working to get out from under this tax which is going to be close to impossible for them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boopa1219 Posted November 16, 2019 Share Posted November 16, 2019 I wouldn’t be upset if the Sox took a stab at Gray. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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