What about Collins?

[Balta1701]

2 minutes ago, steveno89 said:

You are suggesting that we rely on McCann/Collins in 2020 and onward right? No Grandal pursuit? 

Personally yeah that's what I'd do. Give Collins his shot, catchers take forever to develop anyway, and if we're bad at that position, we won't be the only team who's bad at that position, and that's an easy one to add defensive backups a the deadline. My setup has always been - maximize what we can get internally, as the internal options are the guys who make it possible for us to afford other positions. If we can turn Collins into something tolerable, a 2 win catcher over the next 2 seasons, we fill that spot with average production and do so without spending money. So skip Grandal, but give me the frontline starting pitcher (and yes I know we won't get that one but that's how I'd do it). 

[steveno89]

5 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Personally yeah that's what I'd do. Give Collins his shot, catchers take forever to develop anyway, and if we're bad at that position, we won't be the only team who's bad at that position, and that's an easy one to add defensive backups a the deadline. My setup has always been - maximize what we can get internally, as the internal options are the guys who make it possible for us to afford other positions. If we can turn Collins into something tolerable, a 2 win catcher over the next 2 seasons, we fill that spot with average production and do so without spending money. So skip Grandal, but give me the frontline starting pitcher (and yes I know we won't get that one but that's how I'd do it). 

I get what you mean, and sticking with Collins would be ideal as long as he produces. 

My issue is that I feel like McCann's 2019 was a fluke and his second half numbers reflect that. Collins might improve at the plate, but we know he will never even be an average defensive catcher. McCann's first half was a mirage that is not going to be repeated. We need to be proactive and stabilize that position this offseason in Grandal. 

Grandal is available right now and would solidify the catching position with a plus player for the next few seasons. McCann could be the backup in 2020, or traded if the Sox want Collins as the backup. I want to avoid the nightmare scenario of both McCann and Collins having crappy 2019's leaving catcher as a huge void going into 2021. 

[Balta1701]

13 minutes ago, steveno89 said:

I get what you mean, and sticking with Collins would be ideal as long as he produces. 

My issue is that I feel like McCann's 2019 was a fluke and his second half numbers reflect that. Collins might improve at the plate, but we know he will never even be an average defensive catcher. McCann's first half was a mirage that is not going to be repeated. We need to be proactive and stabilize that position this offseason in Grandal. 

Grandal is available right now and would solidify the catching position with a plus player for the next few seasons. McCann could be the backup in 2020, or traded if the Sox want Collins as the backup. I want to avoid the nightmare scenario of both McCann and Collins having crappy 2019's leaving catcher as a huge void going into 2021. 

I don't see that as a nightmare scenario. The nightmare scenario is that catcher is terrible, RH never upgrades it thinking McCann can handle it and the pitchers like him, and we win 94 games and miss the wild card by 1 win. And I'll admit I'm risking that, but the payoff is potentially developing a tolerable catcher internally, and I take that risk to try to develop the guys we have internally.

If the bolded comes true...that's why in my version, I make sure I don't spend every cent I have this offseason, or at the very least I make sure I have some extra contracts that end next offseason. If I sign Calhoun and Abreu to 1 year deals, Moustakas to a 2 year deal, and Cole to an 8 year deal, I've got $25 million freeing up in Abreu and Calhoun next offseason and can move that money elsewhere if Vaughn takes a spot. So in that world, I've got $25 million to fill RF and C next offseason without increasing payroll at all; if someone like Adolfo had a breakout year that could be enough to get me Realmuto, otherwise I can try lower levels of the FA market. If Collins did break out, then I could have $25 million available for a serious run at a RF.

[ChiSox59]

I'd be hard pressed to call any scenario that results in 94 wins a worst case scenario.  

[TheFutureIsNear]

17 minutes ago, steveno89 said:

I get what you mean, and sticking with Collins would be ideal as long as he produces. 

My issue is that I feel like McCann's 2019 was a fluke and his second half numbers reflect that. Collins might improve at the plate, but we know he will never even be an average defensive catcher. McCann's first half was a mirage that is not going to be repeated. We need to be proactive and stabilize that position this offseason in Grandal. 

Grandal is available right now and would solidify the catching position with a plus player for the next few seasons. McCann could be the backup in 2020, or traded if the Sox want Collins as the backup. I want to avoid the nightmare scenario of both McCann and Collins having crappy 2019's leaving catcher as a huge void going into 2021. 

I guess the part I’m lost at is why can’t Grandal and Collins both be in the lineup? If you’re spending $15+M on Grandal to fill the catcher spot we still have big holes at RF and DH. Even the “cheap” stop gap options are going to cost around $10M...and in my opinion we aren’t winning the WS (or anything close) in 2020 so I’d much rather see Collins get AB’s than sign someone like Encarnacion to play 1 year and never be seen again. 
 

If we can get something like a .770 OPS (.350/.420) out of Collins in his 1st full year at his dirt cheap rookie salary I’d consider it a win and be happy. The bench bat that can DH against LH to complete the platoon shouldn’t be hard to find at all. 

[Balta1701]

Just now, TheFutureIsNear said:

I guess the part I’m lost at is why can’t Grandal and Collins both be in the lineup? If you’re spending $15+M on Grandal to fill the catcher spot we still have big holes at RF and DH. Even the “cheap” stop gap options are going to cost around $10M...and in my opinion we aren’t winning the WS (or anything close) in 2020 so I’d much rather see Collins get AB’s than sign someone like Encarnacion to play 1 year and never be seen again. 
 

If we can get something like a .770 OPS (.350/.420) out of Collins in his 1st full year at his dirt cheap rookie salary I’d consider it a win and be happy. The bench bat that can DH against LH to complete the platoon shouldn’t be hard to find at all. 

It's not the worst option, but if you could legitimately get a .750 OPS out of Collins next year - you're spending premium bucks on Grandal not so that he can DH, you're spending that money on him because he can catch. If Collins looks like an ok option at catcher, you are better off giving Collins more at bats and using your money elsewhere, rather than putting $20 million/year into Grandal for many years. If Collins could give me a .750 OPS, then taking on JD Martinez suddenly makes a lot of sense. 

[ChiSox59]

3 minutes ago, TheFutureIsNear said:

I guess the part I’m lost at is why can’t Grandal and Collins both be in the lineup? If you’re spending $15+M on Grandal to fill the catcher spot we still have big holes at RF and DH. Even the “cheap” stop gap options are going to cost around $10M...and in my opinion we aren’t winning the WS (or anything close) in 2020 so I’d much rather see Collins get AB’s than sign someone like Encarnacion to play 1 year and never be seen again. 

If we can get something like a .770 OPS (.350/.420) out of Collins in his 1st full year at his dirt cheap rookie salary I’d consider it a win and be happy. The bench bat that can DH against LH to complete the platoon shouldn’t be hard to find at all. 

Both Leury and McCann rake lefties.

McCann can catch against LHP, and Grandal DH.  

You could also put Leury in LF (or RF depending on whoever that ends up being) and slide Eloy to DH against LHP.  

Not super concerned about filling the DH spot against lefties.  

[Chisox378]

On 11/16/2019 at 8:24 PM, MeanJoeCrede said:

1. Is he a catcher?

2. Is he a part of the core moving forward?

3. Is he just a left handed bat with a high OBP?

4. Is he a trade piece?

5. Or do we need more time to figure out what he is and how he fits?

Can he play right field?

[Chisox378]

2 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

Both Leury and McCann rake lefties.

McCann can catch against LHP, and Grandal DH.  

You could also put Leury in LF (or RF depending on whoever that ends up being) and slide Eloy to DH against LHP.  

Not super concerned about filling the DH spot against lefties.  

Please no Leury unless a bench player.  139 k's to 21 bb isnt going to help our offense. 

[ChiSox59]

2 minutes ago, Chisox378 said:

Please no Leury unless a bench player.  139 k's to 21 bb isnt going to help our offense. 

I literally just called him a platoon option against LHP.  

[Chisox378]

3 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

I literally just called him a platoon option against LHP.  

Opps, sorry about that!

[tray]

Leury does no wait for walks but he had a decent OPS and BA last season. Also, he has a gun for an arm in RF and speed on the bases.

If the Sox don't get Castellanos, Benintendi or another RF, I would not be that unhappy with Leury in RF to start the season, especially if financial resources are spent on Grandal and pitching.

 

 

[Dominikk85]

1 hour ago, steveno89 said:

Collins could figure the hitting out, but I do not think he will or should get long of a leash at the MLB level. A 38 K% even in 27 games is alarming. 

I wouldn't worry about the early sample that much. Even vlad junior struck out a lot initially and he is a great contact hitter, that is not uncommon the first 300-400 PAs at a new level.

Still we can probably expect a low 30s K rate going forward which is a lot. Depends on how much game power he develops. If it is 30+ bombs that can still play.

[Balta1701]

6 minutes ago, tray said:

Leury does no wait for walks but he had a decent OPS and BA last season. Also, he has a gun for an arm in RF and speed on the bases.

If the Sox don't get Castellanos, Benintendi or another RF, I would not be that unhappy with Leury in RF to start the season, especially if financial resources are spent on Grandal and pitching.

 

 

I would be genuinely unhappy with Leury as a full time starter in RF. I would have few issues with him being a platoon player. 

[steveno89]

51 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

I don't see that as a nightmare scenario. The nightmare scenario is that catcher is terrible, RH never upgrades it thinking McCann can handle it and the pitchers like him, and we win 94 games and miss the wild card by 1 win. And I'll admit I'm risking that, but the payoff is potentially developing a tolerable catcher internally, and I take that risk to try to develop the guys we have internally.

If the bolded comes true...that's why in my version, I make sure I don't spend every cent I have this offseason, or at the very least I make sure I have some extra contracts that end next offseason. If I sign Calhoun and Abreu to 1 year deals, Moustakas to a 2 year deal, and Cole to an 8 year deal, I've got $25 million freeing up in Abreu and Calhoun next offseason and can move that money elsewhere if Vaughn takes a spot. So in that world, I've got $25 million to fill RF and C next offseason without increasing payroll at all; if someone like Adolfo had a breakout year that could be enough to get me Realmuto, otherwise I can try lower levels of the FA market. If Collins did break out, then I could have $25 million available for a serious run at a RF.

Phillies are discussing a long term extension with Realmuto, there is a chance he never makes it to free agency. The other 2021 FA catching options are not great. 

 

2 minutes ago, Dominikk85 said:

I wouldn't worry about the early sample that much. Even vlad junior struck out a lot initially and he is a great contact hitter, that is not uncommon the first 300-400 PAs at a new level.

Still we can probably expect a low 30s K rate going forward which is a lot. Depends on how much game power he develops. If it is 30+ bombs that can still play.

Vlad Jr.'s hit tool is far beyond Collins', it is totally reasonable to ask if he can hit well enough to be worth a 25 man roster spot. 

[he gone.]

I heard if Collins is in dugout even that the Sox pitchers' arms will fall off. I don't see how any of them can even throw a strike if Collins is behind the plate. Sox won't even win 50 games with Collins at catcher. He's the plague!

[Jerksticks]

22 minutes ago, BrianAnderson said:

I heard if Collins is in dugout even that the Sox pitchers' arms will fall off. I don't see how any of them can even throw a strike if Collins is behind the plate. Sox won't even win 50 games with Collins at catcher. He's the plague!

Yes.  These are the reports coming out.  Don’t forget he’s also going to personally injure every fan that has to watch because they are going to gouge their own eyeballs out from the awful, awful site 

[poppysox]

3 hours ago, ChiSox59 said:

Except you generally want your backup catcher to actually be good at catching.

Collins best role is a platoon DH/1B and 3rd catcher.  He'll get plenty of at bats that way, and that is how I expect the Sox to utilize him in 2020.  The plan works a hell of a lot better with Grandal in the fold, however.  

Yes indeed.

[Jack Parkman]

22 minutes ago, poppysox said:

Yes indeed.

If the Sox fill C and DH with outside help, where is Collins going to get his ABs? He's not stealing them from Abreu. Even though I'm not a fan of Collins, he brings what this team lacks: A LH power hitter and OBP. 

They used a 1st rounder on Collins. Might as well see what you have. He, Abreu and Jimenez can rotate through the DH spot. If they need to find an upgrade they can do so mid-season. 

Edited November 18, 2019 by Jack Parkman

[michelangelosmonkey]

1 hour ago, steveno89 said:

Phillies are discussing a long term extension with Realmuto, there is a chance he never makes it to free agency. The other 2021 FA catching options are not great. 

 

Vlad Jr.'s hit tool is far beyond Collins', it is totally reasonable to ask if he can hit well enough to be worth a 25 man roster spot. 

Your disdain for Collins is crazy...based on 86 major league at bats????   Collins had a 1.200 OPS as a senior at Miami as a CATCHER.  He had a .950 OPS last year at AAA at TWENTY FOUR.  AT twenty three he led the whole minor leagues in walk rate.  The art of catching will take time.   I think the benefit of McCann to learn from as he learns to be a big league hitter is a great scenario...50 games caught in 2020.   I wouldn't sign Grandal...I'd use the money on starting pitching.  I think they get Cole.  I think they have learned and will shove the chips in...and I think they like Collins and he will be a big part of the future.  

[Chicago White Sox]

5 hours ago, steveno89 said:

Collins could figure the hitting out, but I do not think he will or should get long of a leash at the MLB level. A 38 K% even in 27 games is alarming. 

Moncada had a 37% K rate in his first 27 games...

[Chicago White Sox]

3 hours ago, tray said:

Leury does no wait for walks but he had a decent OPS and BA last season. Also, he has a gun for an arm in RF and speed on the bases.

If the Sox don't get Castellanos, Benintendi or another RF, I would not be that unhappy with Leury in RF to start the season, especially if financial resources are spent on Grandal and pitching.

 

 

I would be enraged if they started the season with Leury as the starting RF.

[MeanJoeCrede]

6 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

I would be enraged if they started the season with Leury as the starting RF.

Even if we signed Cole, Wheeler, Grandal, and Edwin?

[Chicago White Sox]

32 minutes ago, MeanJoeCrede said:

Even if we signed Cole, Wheeler, Grandal, and Edwin?

This is a complete fantasy scenario and if we’re going down such path why not just add a competent RF?

[BackDoorBreach]

42 minutes ago, MeanJoeCrede said:

Even if we signed Cole, Wheeler, Grandal, and Edwin?

 

6 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

This is a complete fantasy scenario and if we’re going down such path why not just add a competent RF?

I mean, we'd also have to trade one of Gio, Cease, Kopech, or Lopez.