What about Collins?

[Balta1701]

2 hours ago, BackDoorBreach said:

 

I mean, we'd also have to trade one of Gio, Cease, Kopech, or Lopez.

So...Betts?

[BackDoorBreach]

Just now, Balta1701 said:

So...Betts?

Roll Tide

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

18 hours ago, steveno89 said:

I get what you mean, and sticking with Collins would be ideal as long as he produces. 

My issue is that I feel like McCann's 2019 was a fluke and his second half numbers reflect that. Collins might improve at the plate, but we know he will never even be an average defensive catcher. McCann's first half was a mirage that is not going to be repeated. We need to be proactive and stabilize that position this offseason in Grandal. 

Grandal is available right now and would solidify the catching position with a plus player for the next few seasons. McCann could be the backup in 2020, or traded if the Sox want Collins as the backup. I want to avoid the nightmare scenario of both McCann and Collins having crappy 2019's leaving catcher as a huge void going into 2021. 

I'm going to have to agree with Balta here, The one advantage that everyone seems to overlook is OBP prospects have a much better chance to become highly valuable pieces going forward due to that plate discipline. Not only does it produce a lot of walks but you can become a much better hitter once you figure out how to use that great eye on hitting pitches in the zone like Moncada did. You want more examples ? Ok Look at Semien and Narvaez both have far surpassed any projections of them because they used their great plate discipline to learn to hit pitches in the zone.

That doesn't mean Collins will become great. But it does mean if he does start to use that batting eye to become a better hitter like Moncada,Semien and Narvaez he will be so much better than an undisciplined hitter such as Avi who has all kinds of talent but never was very good at plate discipline. If he was he could've been a superstar. Once the hit tool catches up to the plate discipline we are looking at All Star level production.

Of course that's what also makes Grandal an All-Star I'd love to have Grandal on the same team as Collins because along with Moncada there are 2 guys Collins can probably learn a lot from about using that great eyes to become much better as a hitter. No need for a DH then between Abreu, Grandal Collins McCann Eloy .

Sox learn a lesson from past mistakes. Keep high OBP prospects , Draft more of them.

[caulfield12]

4 hours ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

I'm going to have to agree with Balta here, The one advantage that everyone seems to overlook is OBP prospects have a much better chance to become highly valuable pieces going forward due to that plate discipline. Not only does it produce a lot of walks but you can become a much better hitter once you figure out how to use that great eye on hitting pitches in the zone like Moncada did. You want more examples ? Ok Look at Semien and Narvaez both have far surpassed any projections of them because they used their great plate discipline to learn to hit pitches in the zone.

That doesn't mean Collins will become great. But it does mean if he does start to use that batting eye to become a better hitter like Moncada,Semien and Narvaez he will be so much better than an undisciplined hitter such as Avi who has all kinds of talent but never was very good at plate discipline. If he was he could've been a superstar. Once the hit tool catches up to the plate discipline we are looking at All Star level production.

Of course that's what also makes Grandal an All-Star I'd love to have Grandal on the same team as Collins because along with Moncada there are 2 guys Collins can probably learn a lot from about using that great eyes to become much better as a hitter. No need for a DH then between Abreu, Grandal Collins McCann Eloy .

Sox learn a lesson from past mistakes. Keep high OBP prospects , Draft more of them.

Didn’t the Call/Fisher draft represent their first attempt to go high OBP, more refined collegiate hitters...?

[SoxBlanco]

6 hours ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

I'm going to have to agree with Balta here, The one advantage that everyone seems to overlook is OBP prospects have a much better chance to become highly valuable pieces going forward due to that plate discipline. Not only does it produce a lot of walks but you can become a much better hitter once you figure out how to use that great eye on hitting pitches in the zone like Moncada did. You want more examples ? Ok Look at Semien and Narvaez both have far surpassed any projections of them because they used their great plate discipline to learn to hit pitches in the zone.

That doesn't mean Collins will become great. But it does mean if he does start to use that batting eye to become a better hitter like Moncada,Semien and Narvaez he will be so much better than an undisciplined hitter such as Avi who has all kinds of talent but never was very good at plate discipline. If he was he could've been a superstar. Once the hit tool catches up to the plate discipline we are looking at All Star level production.

Of course that's what also makes Grandal an All-Star I'd love to have Grandal on the same team as Collins because along with Moncada there are 2 guys Collins can probably learn a lot from about using that great eyes to become much better as a hitter. No need for a DH then between Abreu, Grandal Collins McCann Eloy .

Sox learn a lesson from past mistakes. Keep high OBP prospects , Draft more of them.

Great post. I definitely agree. I’d really like to give Collins as many at bats as possible next year. 

[SCCWS]

On 11/18/2019 at 3:17 PM, steveno89 said:

I get what you mean, and sticking with Collins would be ideal as long as he produces. 

My issue is that I feel like McCann's 2019 was a fluke and his second half numbers reflect that. Collins might improve at the plate, but we know he will never even be an average defensive catcher. McCann's first half was a mirage that is not going to be repeated. We need to be proactive and stabilize that position this offseason in Grandal. 

Grandal is available right now and would solidify the catching position with a plus player for the next few seasons. McCann could be the backup in 2020, or traded if the Sox want Collins as the backup. I want to avoid the nightmare scenario of both McCann and Collins having crappy 2019's leaving catcher as a huge void going into 2021. 

McCann 's 2nd half numbers other than HR/RBI dropped during the 2nd half. The 1st half as you say may very well be a fluke. But Grandal 's 2nd half numbers drop almost every year he has played. In his case, I think he plays too many games (130ish) and he wears out.  The AL affords him the chance to play less and DH on the days he doesn't catch. But I thought I saw something that he insists on catching a lot of games. 

[Eminor3rd]

In 2020, I see him as a backup catcher with the opportunity to win ABs at DH. 

[SCCWS]

4 hours ago, Eminor3rd said:

In 2020, I see him as a backup catcher with the opportunity to win ABs at DH. 

As the backup or the 3rd catcher?

[Eminor3rd]

3 hours ago, SCCWS said:

As the backup or the 3rd catcher?

Backup. He still needs some reps there.

[SCCWS]

8 hours ago, Eminor3rd said:

Backup. He still needs some reps there.

So if they sign Grandal, you would see them moving McCann? 

[caulfield12]

51 minutes ago, SCCWS said:

So if they sign Grandal, you would see them moving McCann? 

Nobody will give up that much for McCann unless he repeats his first half...in which case, we’d undoubtedly be extending him for 2-3 years into the heart of the rebuild.

[Chisox378]

Hope Collins gets a full time shot, love the OBP. Also, maybe try him in RF.  If he can hit and get on base maybe plug him in at the #2 with Madrigal leading off. This team is looking funner by the minute!

Edited November 20, 2019 by Chisox378

[Squirmin' for Yermin]

35 minutes ago, Chisox378 said:

Hope Collins gets a full time shot, love the OBP. Also, maybe try him in RF.  If he can hit and get on base maybe plug him in at the #2 with Madrigal leading off. This team is looking funner by the minute!

You are an absolutely new surprise to the board. I love these hilarious sarcastic outtakes you have.  Your sarcasm sounds so good that it almost can be seen as being real and true.  Funny man, funny funny man.

[Eminor3rd]

6 hours ago, SCCWS said:

So if they sign Grandal, you would see them moving McCann? 

No, but I don’t think they are in onGrandal and I don’t really think they should be.

if they are, that certainly changes things. I probably try to trade Collins or move him to 1B permanently and forget about getting a DH. 

[Chisox378]

39 minutes ago, cjgalloway said:

You are an absolutely new surprise to the board. I love these hilarious sarcastic outtakes you have.  Your sarcasm sounds so good that it almost can be seen as being real and true.  Funny man, funny funny man.

I'm as serious as a heart attack. Go Sox!

[ChiSox59]

30 minutes ago, Eminor3rd said:

No, but I don’t think they are in onGrandal and I don’t really think they should be.

if they are, that certainly changes things. I probably try to trade Collins or move him to 1B permanently and forget about getting a DH. 

Why don't you think the Sox should be after Grandal - arguably the best overall fit for a bat currently available on the FA market? 

[Eminor3rd]

10 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

Why don't you think the Sox should be after Grandal - arguably the best overall fit for a bat currently available on the FA market? 

I think they should spend on elite pitching, and given their MO, I think a significant position player expenditure will cause them not to do so — either by causing them to settle for a third tier option like Dallas Keuchel or by all-out dumpster diving for a couple veteran backend options. 

[ChiSox59]

Just now, Eminor3rd said:

I think they should spend on elite pitching, and given their MO, I think a significant position player expenditure will cause them not to do so — either by causing them to settle for a third tier option like Dallas Keuchel or by all-out dumpster diving for a couple veteran backend options. 

Gotcha.  So basically nothing to do with fit, but everything to do with your lack of faith in the Sox spending the money necessary to bring in two top 10 FA in one offseason. 

[GreenSox]

Collins as a trade piece is selling low.  He should be able to hit pretty well.  Maybe learn 1B

[caulfield12]

When’s the last time we sold “really high” on a Top 5 team prospect that later fizzled?

Jeremy Reed?   Daniel Hudson for EJax doesn’t really fit here.   I guess Santiago for Eaton...although he technically was no longer a prospect by then.  A. Reed for Davidson, although also no longer a prospect.

[Princess Dye]

Bench bat? Unless he were to surprise everyone and improve as a catcher, it's hard to imagine the bat-to-ball ability being good enough for most-days-1B/DH

If we were set to be a bad team for another year, then absolutely he would get a whole year to try/succeed/fail

Edited November 20, 2019 by Princess Dye

[Balta1701]

54 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

When’s the last time we sold “really high” on a Top 5 team prospect that later fizzled?

Jeremy Reed?   Daniel Hudson for EJax doesn’t really fit here.   I guess Santiago for Eaton...although he technically was no longer a prospect by then.  A. Reed for Davidson, although also no longer a prospect.

Fizzled? If you go by the Futuresox list it was Micah Johnson in 2015, but that's only because of how weak our system was at the time. 

[zisk]

Sox protected YMercedes today. what does that mean for Collins and Grandal going forward?

[pcq]

On 11/19/2019 at 3:49 AM, Perfect Vision said:

In September, when he was finally getting regular playing time, he hit .233/.343/.417.  Not great, but not bad.  Collins probably isn't going to be a star in MLB, but if he can get on base at a .350ish clip and hit 25 homeruns, he would be a fine everyday DH.

A DH who would post similar or slightly better stats probably wouldn't be hard to find in free agency every year, but if the Sox could save $8-10 mil annually and put it towards something else by using Collins in that role, why wouldn't they?

He likely has a hit tool but the Sox act as though they do not see him as a first string catcher. In need of integrated analytics to help this young man achieve. Extra work in AZ would seem like a need.

[Chicago White Sox]

40 minutes ago, zisk said:

Sox protected YMercedes today. what does that mean for Collins and Grandal going forward?

To me, it lends credence to the three headed DH/C monster with Grandal, McCann, & Collins.  Mercedes can serve as a backup plan to Collins in AAA.