thxfrthmmrs Posted December 2, 2019 Share Posted December 2, 2019 17 minutes ago, fathom said: Because the controllable starting pitcher would be a lot cheaper than overpaying for someone not quite as good, as opposed to what the cost would be to get a solid 2nd baseman (ie: Villar). You’re not going to game the system this way, no one is going to trade a good controllable SP for Madrigal alone. Madrigal and Cease maybe. Also I think most of the controllable assets available in the trade market are position players, so there will be competitive bidding either way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Look at Ray Ray Run Posted December 2, 2019 Share Posted December 2, 2019 (edited) 18 minutes ago, Harold's Leg Lift said: Bingo. Finding a league avg 2B should not be difficult. They just released one. We get that you dont like Madrigal. If the Sox thought Madrigal was only as good as Yolmer they would likely trade him. I agree it's important to be able to evaluate your talent in house and move the pieces you think are overrated. That's important for a rebuild as well. I just dont think the sox should be in a position to move any of their huge prospects that were listed - maybe Vaughn if they felt inclined. Kopech and cease? Too risky to move either imo. Madrigal and Robert? Floors are too high to move those guys imo. Edited December 2, 2019 by Look at Ray Ray Run Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted December 2, 2019 Share Posted December 2, 2019 What controllable starting pitcher is going to be better than Wheeler? Because honestly, I can’t think of many that will be available and not cost an absolute fortune. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thxfrthmmrs Posted December 2, 2019 Share Posted December 2, 2019 3 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said: What controllable starting pitcher is going to be better than Wheeler? Because honestly, I can’t think of many that will be available and not cost an absolute fortune. Absorb Archer’s 2/$20M by trading prospects, or pay 2/$26M for Keuchel and no prospects? The answer is pretty easy on that one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dlsoxfan Posted December 2, 2019 Share Posted December 2, 2019 Let's just sign Wheeler. And keep the major league ready prospects. Trading away valuable pieces that can help us win. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve9347 Posted December 2, 2019 Share Posted December 2, 2019 1 minute ago, thxfrthmmrs said: Absorb Archer’s 2/$20M by trading prospects, or pay 2/$26M for Keuchel and no prospects? The answer is pretty easy on that one. Chris Archer sucks Dallas Keuchel sucks 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hi8is Posted December 2, 2019 Share Posted December 2, 2019 Yes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoxAce Posted December 2, 2019 Share Posted December 2, 2019 (edited) 31 minutes ago, mqr said: Who is this controllable arm on the market? Cuz I’m not seeing one worth giving up actual assets for At this point (and I say this as someone who is not a fan of his as a person) if you are talking about trading assets to get a guy, I would explore trading for Hader and making him a starter. The guy started most of his career in the minors before the Brewers put him in the bullpen. He has decreased his BB% the last 3 years and increased his SO per. He is controlled for 4 seasons. Stretch his arm in spring training and see what he can do as a SP. Otherwise, stay the course and get Wheeler +. Edited December 2, 2019 by SoxAce Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HOFHurt35 Posted December 2, 2019 Share Posted December 2, 2019 5 minutes ago, Steve9347 said: Chris Archer sucks Dallas Keuchel sucks Chris Archer or Dallas Keuchel + Madrigal. The answer is easy. Not endorsing Dallas Keuchel, just using this an example. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donny Lucy's Avocado Farm Posted December 2, 2019 Share Posted December 2, 2019 10 minutes ago, Steve9347 said: Chris Archer sucks Dallas Keuchel sucks They're both better than the AAAA clown car of a rotation the Sox have been throwing out there. If one of these sorts is signed to fill a rotation hole for a single season, fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Look at Ray Ray Run Posted December 2, 2019 Share Posted December 2, 2019 6 minutes ago, SoxAce said: At this point (and I say this as someone who is not a fan of his as a person) if you are talking about trading assets to get a guy, I would explore trading for Hader and making him a starter. The guy started most of his career in the minors before the Brewers put him in the bullpen. He has decreased his BB% the last 3 years and increased his SO per. He is controlled for 4 seasons. Stretch his arm in spring training and see what he can do as a SP. Otherwise, stay the course and get Wheeler +. I think, at this point, Hader is a reliever. The Brewers have had SP issues, yet they've never attempted to stretch him out. It appears that his 3rd pitch never quite developed, and he is certainly a max effort guy as a reliever - you have to wonder how much juice and life his fastball would lose as a starter. The reluctance of the Brewers to put him there would lead me to believe that he just didn't play up as a starter. Reminds me a bit of the Aroldis Chapman situation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thxfrthmmrs Posted December 2, 2019 Share Posted December 2, 2019 13 minutes ago, Steve9347 said: Chris Archer sucks Dallas Keuchel sucks You could do worse than Keuchel as your 2nd SP addition after Wheeler. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Look at Ray Ray Run Posted December 2, 2019 Share Posted December 2, 2019 3 minutes ago, Charlie Haeger's Knuckles said: They're both better than the AAAA clown car of a rotation the Sox have been throwing out there. If one of these sorts is signed to fill a rotation hole for a single season, fine. Chris Archer was worse than Ivan Nova and he was in the NL. Archer is awful now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donny Lucy's Avocado Farm Posted December 2, 2019 Share Posted December 2, 2019 2 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said: Chris Archer was worse than Ivan Nova and he was in the NL. Archer is awful now. I was speaking more towards Dallas Keuchel. Bringing Nova back (or someone like him) isn't a bad idea. Its not like there's guys knocking down the door in Charlotte. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted December 2, 2019 Share Posted December 2, 2019 17 minutes ago, SoxAce said: At this point (and I say this as someone who is not a fan of his as a person) if you are talking about trading assets to get a guy, I would explore trading for Hader and making him a starter. The guy started most of his career in the minors before the Brewers put him in the bullpen. He has decreased his BB% the last 3 years and increased his SO per. He is controlled for 4 seasons. Stretch his arm in spring training and see what he can do as a SP. Otherwise, stay the course and get Wheeler +. If I were the Brewers, having seen what other players the truly elite relievers have returned in trades, I wouldn't send him to the White Sox for anything less than Robert. There's every reason to think that if they're patient some team will give up a top 20 or better player for him. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmags Posted December 2, 2019 Share Posted December 2, 2019 From latest an mlb roundup in the Athletic, it states that wheeler has the biggest market among starting pitchers (As in # of teams interested/involved) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mqr Posted December 2, 2019 Share Posted December 2, 2019 23 minutes ago, SoxAce said: At this point (and I say this as someone who is not a fan of his as a person) if you are talking about trading assets to get a guy, I would explore trading for Hader and making him a starter. The guy started most of his career in the minors before the Brewers put him in the bullpen. He has decreased his BB% the last 3 years and increased his SO per. He is controlled for 4 seasons. Stretch his arm in spring training and see what he can do as a SP. Otherwise, stay the course and get Wheeler +. Yeah, I'm not punching a hole in my infield to get a reliever to take a chance on him starting Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CWSpalehoseCWS Posted December 2, 2019 Share Posted December 2, 2019 2 minutes ago, bmags said: From latest an mlb roundup in the Athletic, it states that wheeler has the biggest market among starting pitchers (As in # of teams interested/involved) I really hope the Sox have a plan B if Wheeler is a swing and a miss. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Look at Ray Ray Run Posted December 2, 2019 Share Posted December 2, 2019 (edited) 9 minutes ago, Balta1701 said: If I were the Brewers, having seen what other players the truly elite relievers have returned in trades, I wouldn't send him to the White Sox for anything less than Robert. There's every reason to think that if they're patient some team will give up a top 20 or better player for him. If you pretend 2016 didn't exist and somehow the Yankees didn't brainwash two teams into giving them way too much for relievers, there's really no precedent of an elite prospect being traded for a Bpen arm. I think 2016 was not the norm. Osuna obviously had other things hampering his market (being a massive POS), but he was moved for another top talent RP. Britton had been hurt, but he was moved for middling prospects. Mejia was probably the highest priced paid, and he was trending downward at the time of his trade - anywhere from 25-40th in baseball. He was a 1 for 1 for Hand as well. If you view Robert as a top 3 prospect and talent, no way does he move for a reliever but it's all about how you value him. There's a huge value difference between a top 3 guy and a 20th ranked guy. Edited December 2, 2019 by Look at Ray Ray Run Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoxBlanco Posted December 2, 2019 Share Posted December 2, 2019 1 minute ago, CWSpalehoseCWS said: I really hope the Sox have a plan B if Wheeler is a swing and a miss. And I hope that plan B is to go all in on Cole or Strasburg and then go cheap for RF. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted December 2, 2019 Share Posted December 2, 2019 1 minute ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said: If you pretend 2016 didn't exist and somehow the Yankees didn't brainwash two teams into giving them way too much for relievers, there's really no precedent of an elite prospect being traded for a Bpen arm. I think 2016 was not the norm. Osuna obviously had other things hampering his market (being a massive POS), but he was moved for another top talent RP. Britton had been hurt, but he was moved for middling prospects. Mejia was probably the highest priced paid, and he was trending downward at the time of his trade - anywhere from 25-40th in baseball. He was a 1 for 1 for Hand as well. If you view Robert as a top 3 prospect and talent, no way does he move for a reliever but it's all about how you value him. There's a huge value difference between a top 3 guy and a 20th ranked guy. The nice thing for the Brewers is - with 4 years of control on the guy, if they don't get an enormous return for him there's no reason to move him. They can wait until the deadline, then they can wait until next offseason, then they can wait til the deadline next year, and that's just in his first arbitration season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmags Posted December 2, 2019 Share Posted December 2, 2019 1 minute ago, Balta1701 said: The nice thing for the Brewers is - with 4 years of control on the guy, if they don't get an enormous return for him there's no reason to move him. They can wait until the deadline, then they can wait until next offseason, then they can wait til the deadline next year, and that's just in his first arbitration season. They have a year, but I imagine hader is going to be enormously expensive in arb. There has been a real disconnect in arb salaries for relievers vs. starters. He's going to be an interesting case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiSoxFanMike Posted December 2, 2019 Share Posted December 2, 2019 9 minutes ago, bmags said: From latest an mlb roundup in the Athletic, it states that wheeler has the biggest market among starting pitchers (As in # of teams interested/involved) This isn't really a surprise. Either way, the Sox could and should be able to outbid everyone for his services. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thxfrthmmrs Posted December 2, 2019 Share Posted December 2, 2019 11 minutes ago, bmags said: From latest an mlb roundup in the Athletic, it states that wheeler has the biggest market among starting pitchers (As in # of teams interested/involved) I have a feeling Wheeler negotiations will drag on for a while and hope the Sox are focused on adding their second starter in parallel, be it Wood, Gio, Roark, etc., while others are focused on the Big 3. Also, just selfishly speaking, we need another signing announced soon to keep the stove hot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thxfrthmmrs Posted December 2, 2019 Share Posted December 2, 2019 17 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said: If you pretend 2016 didn't exist and somehow the Yankees didn't brainwash two teams into giving them way too much for relievers, there's really no precedent of an elite prospect being traded for a Bpen arm. I think 2016 was not the norm. Osuna obviously had other things hampering his market (being a massive POS), but he was moved for another top talent RP. Britton had been hurt, but he was moved for middling prospects. Mejia was probably the highest priced paid, and he was trending downward at the time of his trade - anywhere from 25-40th in baseball. He was a 1 for 1 for Hand as well. If you view Robert as a top 3 prospect and talent, no way does he move for a reliever but it's all about how you value him. There's a huge value difference between a top 3 guy and a 20th ranked guy. Unfortunately the conversation WILL start with Robert. The closest comp to Hader is Chapman and in many ways he’s more valuable in that he’s truly a multi-inning closer, and he has a lot of control left. And if I’m not mistaken, at the time of trade Torres was already a mid season top 10 guy, or close to it. It was a huge overpay for half a season of Chapman, but for 4 years of Hader (even considering his likely unprecedented RP arb cost), that will be the starting price. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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