Zack Wheeler: To the Phils (5yr 118); Sox had made BIGGER offer

[caulfield12]

Wheeler found that success despite allowing a .309 batting average on balls in play (BABIP) that was above the league average, indicating that Wheeler was somewhat unlucky. Wheeler already limits his walks and strikes out enough batters. The Phillies, who improved drastically in the field last season, should provide better defense behind him. There are reasons to believe he could be even better.

Wheeler’s average fastball last season was 97 mph, as his velocity moved beyond what it was before his Tommy John surgery. Just four pitchers — Noah Syndergaard, Gerrit Cole, Luis Severino, and Jacob deGrom — have thrown more 97-mph-or-greater pitches than Wheeler over the last two seasons. He has thrown 1,111. Phillies starters have thrown 40. Just two National League clubs have thrown fewer than the Phillies, who finally have a power arm in their rotation.

 

https://www.inquirer.com/phillies/philadelphia-phillies-zack-wheeler-free-agent-signing-20191204.html

[SonofaRoache]

56 minutes ago, Soxnfins said:

I think Rosenthal confirmed it. And lol to incentives. 

True, but our bid won by 1.5 to 2 million after taxes.

[35thstreetswarm]

13 minutes ago, SonofaRoache said:

True, but our bid won by 1.5 to 2 million after taxes.

That makes more sense—the offers were pretty close.  

[Soxnfins]

24 minutes ago, SonofaRoache said:

True, but our bid won by 1.5 to 2 million after taxes.

I think it lost either way. Even at 4.95% In IL, PN State Income tax is 3.07%... with the progressive tax going into affect in IL for those 81 games he would have played in Chicago for earners above $750k (1m for joint) @ 7.99% (majority of his income will be taxed there), it’s not even close. Not to mention I’m hearing Cook County/City of Chicago may be imposing a local tax if you work downtown... . which also pisses me off enough, but I’m a WI resident, work downtown and pay WI taxes due to reciprocity agreements between WI & IL. 

Edited December 5, 2019 by Soxnfins

[poppysox]

32 minutes ago, SonofaRoache said:

True, but our bid won by 1.5 to 2 million after taxes.

The FO has to trust the input of their staff and scouts as to quality and value.  Decide in what range they value individual prospective FA's and act accordingly.  We would kill the rebuild by overpaying and taking on more risk than warranted.  Apparently we were at the top of our range and in fact had the high bid.  Bad break but time to move on.

Edited December 5, 2019 by poppysox

[SCCWS]

14 minutes ago, Soxnfins said:

I think it lost either way. Even at 4.95% In IL, PN State Income tax is 3.07%... with the progressive tax going into affect in IL for those 81 games he would have played in Chicago for earners above $750k (1m for joint) @ 7.99% (majority of his income will be taxed there), it’s not even close. Not to mention I’m hearing Cook County/City of Chicago may be imposing a local tax if you work downtown... . which also pisses me off enough, but I’m a WI resident, work downtown and pay WI taxes due to reciprocity agreements between WI & IL. 

Just a numbers thing. It would be interesting if we hear more about the overall process. To me, $118Mil seems like an odd number especially if the White Sox offered $125. It almost seems like the $118 was topping a $115 offer from someone. Maybe Sox were at $100, someone else was at 115 and Phils went to $118. Sox then went to $125? Maybe I am way off, but I would have thought $120 would have been the counter if Phils knew he was hoping to go to Philly. 

Maybe everybody offered $100 and the $18 and $25 are all incentives added. 

[Soxnfins]

8 minutes ago, SCCWS said:

Just a numbers thing. It would be interesting if we hear more about the overall process. To me, $118Mil seems like an odd number especially if the White Sox offered $125. It almost seems like the $118 was topping a $115 offer from someone. Maybe Sox were at $100, someone else was at 115 and Phils went to $118. Sox then went to $125? Maybe I am way off, but I would have thought $120 would have been the counter if Phils knew he was hoping to go to Philly. 

Maybe everybody offered $100 and the $18 and $25 are all incentives added. 

Sox would have had to offer $122.5MM/5 = $24.5M to be roughly the equivalent of the Phillies offer, so the 120MM+ reported offer makes sense.  It was probably closer to 25M/yr (125/5) with the new tax structure coming into effect.

Edited December 5, 2019 by Soxnfins

[Chicago White Sox]

I think taxes are a consideration in these things, but I think you guys are giving these guys too much credit.  More often than not they’re making their decisions on gross dollars IMO.

[Y2Jimmy0]

From what I understand, the White Sox had a 5 year $125 million offer on the table for awhile. Wheeler wanted to be on the East Coast. He told the Twins that. He didn't tell the Sox that because they needed the Sox bid to get a good offer from the Phillies. The Sox got played again. He was never coming west. 

[SonofaRoache]

1 minute ago, Chicago White Sox said:

I think taxes are a consideration in these things, but I think you guys are giving these guys too much credit.  More often than not they’re making their decisions on gross dollars IMO.

There is no way taxes aren't taken into account when millions of dollars are involved. No agent worth a damn would fail to consider this for their client. 

[SonofaRoache]

1 minute ago, Y2Jimmy0 said:

From what I understand, the White Sox had a 5 year $125 million offer on the table for awhile. Wheeler wanted to be on the East Coast. He told the Twins that. He didn't tell the Sox that because they needed the Sox bid to get a good offer from the Phillies. The Sox got played again. He was never coming west. 

Why would he tell the Twins when he could have used them as well? 

[Y2Jimmy0]

1 minute ago, SonofaRoache said:

Why would he tell the Twins when he could have used them as well? 

Because they offered like $85 million. The agent needed that White Sox interest out there hot and heavy if Wheeler truly wanted to stay in the East. I'm sure if Philly offered 5/100, he might have come to Chicago. But once Philly knew where they needed to be, it was over. 

[Chicago White Sox]

1 minute ago, SonofaRoache said:

There is no way taxes aren't taken into account when millions of dollars are involved. No agent worth a damn would fail to consider this for their client. 

I just said they are a consideration, but I think these guys focus on gross dollars more often than not, especially when tax rates can change.  Also, there is pressure from the union to take the largest gross offer.

[Chicago White Sox]

6 minutes ago, Y2Jimmy0 said:

From what I understand, the White Sox had a 5 year $125 million offer on the table for awhile. Wheeler wanted to be on the East Coast. He told the Twins that. He didn't tell the Sox that because they needed the Sox bid to get a good offer from the Phillies. The Sox got played again. He was never coming west. 

That really sucks...thanks for sharing Jimmy.

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

1 minute ago, SonofaRoache said:

Why would he tell the Twins when he could have used them as well? 

He told the twins yesterday, ftr, when they were getting ready to submit. At that point I'm sure they knew the twins weren't going anywhere high enough to push it. Sox gave 7 million more so 10 million more certainly wouldnt be enough. At some point you need to just move on.

 

3 minutes ago, SonofaRoache said:

There is no way taxes aren't taken into account when millions of dollars are involved. No agent worth a damn would fail to consider this for their client. 

As I noted yesterday, the union typically wants a player to take the most money. Reason being, salaries increase marginally over time. It may only be 7 million more from the Sox but it's 6% more and within the market that matters. This is about growing salaries and egos for contract sizes. Taxes arent really something that makes players pause I dont think. His agent gets commission on the full amount too, so I doubt many agents are trying to talk their client into the smaller number ever.

[caulfield12]

3 minutes ago, Y2Jimmy0 said:

Because they offered like $85 million. The agent needed that White Sox interest out there hot and heavy if Wheeler truly wanted to stay in the East. I'm sure if Philly offered 5/100, he might have come to Chicago. But once Philly knew where they needed to be, it was over. 

No, their offer was $100/5.  

[GradMc]

So Reinsdorf supposedly offered the most money for this Wheeler guy. 

Reinsdorf has allowed the Sox and Bulls to fall so deep into the abyss of irrelevancy he can"t even bribe folks to come here.

That said, there are only two decent FA pitchers worth pursuing and he wasn't/isn't getting either of them.

Although I believe he said it,  regardless of the veracity of that asinine quote about faking out the fanbase is going to haunt the Sox as if they needed any further compelling reasons for elite different makers to stay away.

The biggest problem with both these organizations is the ownership. Fans don't want to hear that because that's an issue nearly impossible to change.

The White Sox will have to go to war with  the players already here. 

Edited December 5, 2019 by GradMc

[ptatc]

7 minutes ago, GradMc said:

So Reinsdorf supposedly offered the most money for this Wheeler guy. 

Reinsdorf has allowed the Sox and Bulls to fall so deep into the abyss of irrelevancy he can"t even bribe folks to come here.

That said, there are only two decent FA pitchers worth pursuing and he wasn't/isn't getting either of them.

Although I believe he said it,  regardless of the veracity of that asinine quote about faking out the fanbase is going to haunt the Sox as if they needed any further compelling reasons for elite different makers to stay away.

The biggest problem with both these organizations is the ownership. Fans don't want to hear that because that's an issue nearly impossible to change.

The White Sox will have to go to war with  the players already here. 

The fact that you refer to him as "this Wheeler guy" tells me everything I need to know about your comments.

[poppysox]

3 minutes ago, GradMc said:

So Reinsdorf supposedly offered the most money for this Wheeler guy. 

Reinsdorf has allowed the Sox and Bulls to fall so deep into the abyss of irrelevancy he can"t even bribe folks to come here.

That said, there are only two decent FA pitchers worth pursuing and he wasn't/isn't getting either of them.

Although I believe he said it,  regardless of the veracity of that asinine quote about faking out the fanbase is going to haunt the Sox as if they needed any further compelling reasons for elite different makers to stay away.

The biggest problem with both these organizations is the ownership. Fans don't want to hear that because that's an issue nearly impossible to change.

The White Sox we'll have to go to war with  the players already here. 

Your last sentence is not true.  We will undoubtedly  sign a right fielder and some bullpen pieces at a minimum.

[Harry Chappas]

Just now, poppysox said:

Your last sentence is not true.  We will undoubtedly  sign a right fielder and some bullpen pieces at a minimum.

Hopefully they have a greater impact than Jon Jay and Yonder Alonso.

[poppysox]

Just now, Harry Chappas said:

Hopefully they have a greater impact than Jon Jay and Yonder Alonso.

No argument there.

[Chicago White Sox]

2 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

He told the twins yesterday, ftr, when they were getting ready to submit. At that point I'm sure they knew the twins weren't going anywhere high enough to push it. Sox gave 7 million more so 10 million more certainly wouldnt be enough. At some point you need to just move on.

 

As I noted yesterday, the union typically wants a player to take the most money. Reason being, salaries increase marginally over time. It may only be 7 million more from the Sox but it's 6% more and within the market that matters. This is about growing salaries and egos for contract sizes. Taxes arent really something that makes players pause I dont think. His agent gets commission on the full amount too, so I doubt many agents are trying to talk their client into the smaller number ever.

Exactly.

[hi8is]

45 minutes ago, Y2Jimmy0 said:

From what I understand, the White Sox had a 5 year $125 million offer on the table for awhile. Wheeler wanted to be on the East Coast. He told the Twins that. He didn't tell the Sox that because they needed the Sox bid to get a good offer from the Phillies. The Sox got played again. He was never coming west. 

Caufiled already said this. 

Edited December 5, 2019 by hi8is

[steveno89]

5 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Exactly.

I'm really happy we at least managed to land Grandal, a legitimate quality free agent. We tried our best for Wheeler, but family does play a factor on decision day. 

 

[shakes]

53 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

I think taxes are a consideration in these things, but I think you guys are giving these guys too much credit.  More often than not they’re making their decisions on gross dollars IMO.

I assure you taxes are highly considered in contract negotiations. It's part of the reason you are seeing weird numbers like $118mm, and the union isn't getting in the way  over that. It's also why deferred money and incentives are not counted the same or taken seriously in high end negotiations. Location arbitrage is a very real consideration for agents and dollar figures. It comes into play when you are negotiating contracts even at $100k level. 

The other thing to consider is when you are playing in the 9 figure pool, taxes are a different game and there are many advantages to having that kind of wealth and ways to work around tax impact.