Zack Wheeler: To the Phils (5yr 118); Sox had made BIGGER offer

[maloney.adam]

29 minutes ago, fathom said:

But this is something they should know about before making him their Plan A.

Wheeler may have given red flags along the way or mentioned this in the meeting with the Sox FO but I don’t think so in this case because they never backed off. They kept there offer on the table or kept him as there number one target so I’m confident they did there research on him before committing to it. Its hard to say though because it’s like a game of cat and mouse.

Edited December 5, 2019 by maloney.adam

[bschmaranz]

Just now, Chicago White Sox said:

The Mets have zero money to work with, so them letting him walk doesn’t really mean anything.

Yup, its 100% the reason they got Stroman

[thxfrthmmrs]

8 minutes ago, fathom said:

But this is something they should know about before making him their Plan A.

Players use teams for leverage, they don’t automatically eliminate themselves from half of the league.

[Soxfest]

1 hour ago, HoosierSox said:

They need to regroup and go hard after Strasburg. 

Stone says not going to happen

[NotHahn]

1 minute ago, Soxfest said:

Stone says not going to happen

Stone has been wrong alot. Including on Wheeler

[poppysox]

3 minutes ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

Thanks for reason and optimism Poppy.   The off season is a long way from being done.   And for all the glory being bestowed upon Wheeler...the Mets did let him walk away.  All of these pitchers have had major arm injuries in the recent past and we want them badly.  Yet we have this really good lefty, Rodon, tied up for two more years coming back from injury and no one counts on him for anything. Not saying the future is tied to him but not sure Wheeler or Ryu are better than Rodon and he's lefty and with us already.  

There are different ways to improve the team.  Signing the big names is great...who didn't like the Grandal signing.  But with 26 players on the ML roster there are lots of places to improve with "good" players.  RF is an example where we could really make up some ground.  The signing of Grandal indirectly fills the DH role with the catchers rotating through.  We are for sure upgrading 4 of 9 players in the batting order and have a TOR arm in Kopech coming back for probably 2/3 of the year.  You mention Rodon and Dunning as well will show up one of these days.  Robert, Madrigal, Kopech, Grandal, new RF, better DH, 2 "good" starters and 2 "good" releivers.  How can we not win 90+ games?

 

[caulfield12]

1 hour ago, thxfrthmmrs said:

Are you saying even with Grandall, Ryu and a couple of pieces to round out the roster we’re not a wild card contender?

Also, why are we giving reasons for why Ryu would sign elsewhere when the theme the last 20 pages is money talks?

I'm pretty sure a 100% HEALTHY Ryu and 2+ fWAR production out of RF makes us a contender, if we can get an 825-850 OPS from Collins against RHP as DH.

Of course, that's having ZERO idea what Minnesota is going to come up with for their rotation.

And there's a big question mark in my mind how well the back end of the bullpen can do again in 2020 without any major reinforcements.  It's more likely that Colome and Bummer regress than Fry and Herrera thrive.

[SoxAce]

6 minutes ago, NotHahn said:

Stone has been wrong alot. Including on Wheeler

Eh... he's been very adamant about the Sox not spending 200+ million on one player. Betting dollars to donuts he is definitely right about this. It ain't JR's M.O., especially with pitching. 

Edited December 5, 2019 by SoxAce

[Baron]

He's the Minister of Propaganda. They definitely aren't going after him. 

[fathom]

1 minute ago, SoxAce said:

Eh... he's been very adamant about the Sox not spending 200+ million on one player. Betting dollars to donuts he us definitely right about this. It ain't JR's M.O.

It’s beyond obvious he’s the Sox spokesman right now. When they missed on Wheeler, he said why. When they got rid of Yolmer, he explained why. If he says no Cole or Strasburg, it means no chance.

[OmarComing25]

5 hours ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

You should evaluate almost everyone's (pitchers) career based on bWAR; fWAR is better for projections, bWAR is better for evaluating actual results. All that matters for a career is actual results, not projectable outcomes.

I think RA9 WAR is much better than bWAR to evaluate a pitcher's career. I don't like the method bWAR uses to adjust for defense. It gave Nola a full win over deGrom in 2018 despite deGrom blowing him away in actual results because DRS viewed the Phillies as a historically awful defensive team. However, even if the Phillies defense was that bad, it clearly didn't affect Nola the same way it did the team's other pitchers considering he had a .251 BABIP so giving him such a huge boost for it doesn't make any sense. RA9 works much better if you care about results on the field IMO.

Edited December 5, 2019 by OmarComing25

[Chicago White Sox]

Just now, fathom said:

It’s beyond obvious he’s the Sox spokesman right now. When they missed on Wheeler, he said why. When they got rid of Yolmer, he explained why. If he says no Cole or Strasburg, it means no chance.

He also said he didn’t think Wheeler would have been worth the money.  I really don’t think he’s the spokesman and just offering his own opinion based on the limited info he’s privy to.

[SoxAce]

Stone is really loving him some Bumgarner right now.

[caulfield12]

8 minutes ago, poppysox said:

There are different ways to improve the team.  Signing the big names is great...who didn't like the Grandal signing.  But with 26 players on the ML roster there are lots of places to improve with "good" players.  RF is an example where we could really make up some ground.  The signing of Grandal indirectly fills the DH role with the catchers rotating through.  We are for sure upgrading 4 of 9 players in the batting order and have a TOR arm in Kopech coming back for probably 2/3 of the year.  You mention Rodon and Dunning as well will show up one of these days.  Robert, Madrigal, Kopech, Grandal, new RF, better DH, 2 "good" starters and 2 "good" releivers.  How can we not win 90+ games?

 

Let's wait and see about your "two good relievers."  The bullpen right now is unlikely to be a strength, overall.

At DH, Collins looks like he did the first time he came up.   Defensive woes in the corner outfield spots.   Anderson regresses defensively, along with McCann.  Abreu continues to age.   Infield defense with Abreu and Anderson, etc.

The biggest is still the starting rotation.  Can Giolito repeat?  Will Lopez force his way back into the conversation or end up as the future closer?   Most importantly, what are Kopech and Cease going to turn out to be?

Right now, assuming all those moves, you're looking at an 83-85ish win team, bordering on 87.

[caulfield12]

3 minutes ago, SoxAce said:

Stone is really loving him some Bumgarner right now.

If he started hyping Tier C/D pitching (already), fans would start to freak out.

It's only natural to start focusing on Bumgarner, especially as he's the last major piece on the pitching front not represented by Boras Corp.

[BackDoorBreach]

4 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

Let's wait and see about your "two good relievers."  The bullpen right now is unlikely to be a strength, overall.

At DH, Collins looks like he did the first time he came up.   Defensive woes in the corner outfield spots.   Anderson regresses defensively, along with McCann.  Abreu continues to age.   Infield defense with Abreu and Anderson, etc.

The biggest is still the starting rotation.  Can Giolito repeat?  Will Lopez force his way back into the conversation or end up as the future closer?   Most importantly, what are Kopech and Cease going to turn out to be?

Right now, assuming all those moves, you're looking at an 83-85ish win team, bordering on 87.

I really want them to gamble on Treinen for the pen.  He did not lose any velo last year despite imploding. I guess they wanted him pitching up in the zone even though he has a 98 MPH sinker...and he got tagged, plus had some neck thing I read.  

[NotHahn]

2 minutes ago, SoxAce said:

Eh... he's been very adamant about the Sox not spending 200+ million on one player. Betting dollars to donuts he is definitely right about this. It ain't JR's M.O., especially with pitching. 

You are probably right. Not a good chance of signing a top tier free agent. Hahn has been lecturing us about breaking the norm though. 

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

34 minutes ago, fathom said:

But this is something they should know about before making him their Plan A.

If you were an impending free agent would you make it public knowledge what your preferences were or would you field offers from a lot of teams and see which one came the closest to your ideal situation while pitting each team against the other ?

[thxfrthmmrs]

23 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

I'm pretty sure a 100% HEALTHY Ryu and 2+ fWAR production out of RF makes us a contender, if we can get an 825-850 OPS from Collins against RHP as DH.

Of course, that's having ZERO idea what Minnesota is going to come up with for their rotation.

And there's a big question mark in my mind how well the back end of the bullpen can do again in 2020 without any major reinforcements.  It's more likely that Colome and Bummer regress than Fry and Herrera thrive.

Twins have their own question marks too, this time last year no one predicted they would win 101 games.

Point is while losing out on Wheeler sucks, there are other options available to build a competitive team next few years. We certainly weren't in a position to give a him a blank check, and he certainly wasn't good enough to justify that move.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

4 hours ago, SonofaRoache said:

Good for him but I'd be single if my fiancee asked me to turn down 7 million dollars to be closer to HER family. 

Pretty much what i said. Let her walk and see who else she can find who makes $24M a year. Get some stones Wheeler. You're going to regret it when she divorces you and gets half of it. At least get a prenup. Wuss.

[poppysox]

20 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

Let's wait and see about your "two good relievers."  The bullpen right now is unlikely to be a strength, overall.

At DH, Collins looks like he did the first time he came up.   Defensive woes in the corner outfield spots.   Anderson regresses defensively, along with McCann.  Abreu continues to age.   Infield defense with Abreu and Anderson, etc.

The biggest is still the starting rotation.  Can Giolito repeat?  Will Lopez force his way back into the conversation or end up as the future closer?   Most importantly, what are Kopech and Cease going to turn out to be?

Right now, assuming all those moves, you're looking at an 83-85ish win team, bordering on 87.

The DH will primarily be McCann or Grandal...whichever isn't catching that day with Collins getting well situated opportunities,  Eloy, Robert and a platoon of Paderson/Engle is an above average defensive outfield.  There is absolutely no reason to think Anderson and McCann regress defensively...actually every hope for improvement from Timmy.  Jose will continue to be his steady self IMO and Kopech and Cease could both be on their way to be TOR pitchers.  Giolito is expected to improve with a better lineup behind him and that goes for every pitcher we have.  Lopez might be the biggest and best find of the year...he surely showed flashes.  I think my 91+ is pretty safe and for sure would be disappointed with 83-85.

[caulfield12]

3 hours ago, poppysox said:

The DH will primarily be McCann or Grandal...whichever isn't catching that day with Collins getting well situated opportunities,  Eloy, Robert and a platoon of Paderson/Engle is an above average defensive outfield.  There is absolutely no reason to think Anderson and McCann regress defensively...actually every hope for improvement from Timmy.  Jose will continue to be his steady self IMO and Kopech and Cease could both be on their way to be TOR pitchers.  Giolito is expected to improve with a better lineup behind him and that goes for every pitcher we have.  Lopez might be the biggest and best find of the year...he surely showed flashes.  I think my 91+ is pretty safe and for sure would be disappointed with 83-85.

I meant Anderson and McCann offensively (oops, edited again and still keep writing the same thing.)

McCann isn't a good enough hitter to hold DH... in a platoon... not if you look at his historical offensive numbers. 

Edited December 5, 2019 by caulfield12

[CWSpalehoseCWS]

54 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

I meant Anderson and McCann defensively. 

McCann isn't a good enough hitter to hold DH... in a platoon... not if you look at his historical offensive numbers. 

A platoon of McCann/Collins on paper does match up. Obviously, this is dependent on Collins being able to show he can stick consistently in the MLB. He's career splits in the minors against RHP is not terrible. If you have to play McCann 80% of the time at DH, then of course there's probably a hole there.

[Flash Tizzle]

Do we have another source aside from Nightengale about the White Sox offer? I’ve read a lot of comments mentioning we beat out Philadelphia with a higher bid, but I’m wondering if that’s Sox Math where its more like $100 mil guaranteed and the $120 is reached through team friendly options and unobtainable performance incentives. 

[Soxnfins]

6 minutes ago, Flash Tizzle said:

Do we have another source aside from Nightengale about the White Sox offer? I’ve read a lot of comments mentioning we beat out Philadelphia with a higher bid, but I’m wondering if that’s Sox Math where its more like $100 mil guaranteed and the $120 is reached through team friendly options and unobtainable performance incentives. 

I think Rosenthal confirmed it. And lol to incentives.