Successful Plan B; What’s Next?

[SonofaRoache]

 

On the third day of Soxmas, they did not give to me... 3 offensive talents

2 starting pitchers

and a shot at contending in '20

[he gone.]

What does everybody think about a 6 man rotation? I would actually like to see one and let nature take its course over the year. 

I think the positives are that you limit Kopech and Cease's innings + if there's an injury you keep trucking along rather than dip down to Banuelos and Detwilers of the world. I doubt that's the Mets plan, and I think it's limited to teams like the Sox and Royals and teams not squarely in contention. For someone like the Mets it doesn't make sense to skip extra games of Thor and DeGrom, but for the Sox, and this year in a vacuum? I like it actually. I've been throwing around some of the same names for a while, and will do it agian for conversation ...

Giolito

Alex Wood

R. Lopez

I. Nova

Cease

Kopech

You can follow the Kopech time manipulation game if you'd like, but let's say by May this is your rotation. Then you let the chips fall where they may. Chances are that you'll have an injury so it wouldn't be a big deal - at that point you're back to a 5 man rotation. But if not, just let everything work itself out. If Nova is pitching like first half Nova last year? Pull the plug. If Alex Wood is pitching back to a 3.50ERA and looking great - then flip him to a playoff contender. If R. Lopez is struggling? Maybe bullpen time for him. I think it accomplishes a lot this year. Plus you have Rodon in August. 

 

Just food for thought. Not necessarily conventional, but I'm a fan.

[Moan4Yoan]

I like Alex Wood but we don’t need to go to the Nova well again.

[ChiSox59]

57 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

That’s why I was suggesting trading McCann for prospect depth.  I agree if you add EE you pretty much need to move one of McCann or Collins as there simply won’t be enough playing time to go around.

I guess. I am just not in love with taking what you can get for McCann just to create space for EE and relegate Collins to strictly backup duties.  I guess we'll see how things shake out, but its definitely an option.  

[he gone.]

12 minutes ago, Moan4Yoan said:

I like Alex Wood but we don’t need to go to the Nova well again.

I'm not enthralled with Nova, but then again I wasn't against resigning Shields last offseason either. I'm just looking for a healthy arm that can provide QS. Amazingly if you look back to Shields' last year with the Sox he was like Top 10 in MLB for Quality starts. obviously the other starts were many times disasters which led to some poor numbers, but I like a guy that can keep you in the game most of hte time and provide QS and innings. Now Nova only had 11 QS, but he did have an okay second half of the year. 

 

Not tied to Nova by any means, if we're going for a 6 man rotation (unlikely) you might as well get a higher upside guy who you can flip anyways ala Alex Wood. Trevor Cahill, Gio, Bucholz, Jimmy Nelson, M. Harvey, T. Walker, Wade Miley... I like some of those names way better than others, but with most of those guys you can squint and maybe find a silver lining. 

[centerfieldsixers]

We wont get much for McCann if we trade him.  Better off waiting if a catcher gets hurt then his demand comes higher

[Chicago White Sox]

9 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

I guess. I am just not in love with taking what you can get for McCann just to create space for EE and relegate Collins to strictly backup duties.  I guess we'll see how things shake out, but its definitely an option.  

What’s going to happen in 2021 though when Vaughn is up?  I was much more in favor of the rotating DH idea prior to the Abreu extension.

[steveno89]

22 minutes ago, BrianAnderson said:

What does everybody think about a 6 man rotation? I would actually like to see one and let nature take its course over the year. 

I think the positives are that you limit Kopech and Cease's innings + if there's an injury you keep trucking along rather than dip down to Banuelos and Detwilers of the world. I doubt that's the Mets plan, and I think it's limited to teams like the Sox and Royals and teams not squarely in contention. For someone like the Mets it doesn't make sense to skip extra games of Thor and DeGrom, but for the Sox, and this year in a vacuum? I like it actually. I've been throwing around some of the same names for a while, and will do it agian for conversation ...

Giolito

Alex Wood

R. Lopez

I. Nova

Cease

Kopech

You can follow the Kopech time manipulation game if you'd like, but let's say by May this is your rotation. Then you let the chips fall where they may. Chances are that you'll have an injury so it wouldn't be a big deal - at that point you're back to a 5 man rotation. But if not, just let everything work itself out. If Nova is pitching like first half Nova last year? Pull the plug. If Alex Wood is pitching back to a 3.50ERA and looking great - then flip him to a playoff contender. If R. Lopez is struggling? Maybe bullpen time for him. I think it accomplishes a lot this year. Plus you have Rodon in August. 

 

Just food for thought. Not necessarily conventional, but I'm a fan.

https://theathletic.com/1460540/2019/12/16/mailbag-where-do-the-white-sox-go-from-here-and-will-they-ever-sign-a-scott-boras-client/?source=shared-article

James does a great job at answering questions and alluding to what the front office is likely dealing with. Missing on Wheeler was huge, because they projected him to still be a quality option in years two, three and four, whereas you really cannot do that with many of the remaining FA pitching options. 

It will not make people happy, and is far from sexy, but I am starting to expect two bargain bin starters on one year deals being added to the 2020 team. The Central is winnable, but James' point about going from low 70's wins to near 90 is not easy to do in a single offseason. Overpaying now for pitching we may not even want in twelve months is a difficult decision. I am not here to carry water or to say this is an acceptable approach, but long term it may be in our best interests. 

Our farm is top heavy and fairly thin on depth that we should not be stealing from at this stage to bandaid the MLB roster. 

Colome/Herrera come off the books after 2020, opening up nearly $18.8 million in payroll. Yes, we will need to address the bullpen, but that breathing room will be nice. We need internal options to develop and be MLB ready. 

 

[steveno89]

1 minute ago, Chicago White Sox said:

What’s going to happen in 2021 though when Vaughn is up?  I was much more in favor of the rotating DH idea prior to the Abreu extension.

We all hope Vaughn is on a 2021 MLB trajectory, but hard to pencil him in until he mashes in 2020. McCann will likely be gone after 2020, and Abreu and Vaughn could trade off 1B/DH. 

 

[fathom]

4 minutes ago, steveno89 said:

https://theathletic.com/1460540/2019/12/16/mailbag-where-do-the-white-sox-go-from-here-and-will-they-ever-sign-a-scott-boras-client/?source=shared-article

James does a great job at answering questions and alluding to what the front office is likely dealing with. Missing on Wheeler was huge, because they projected him to still be a quality option in years two, three and four, whereas you really cannot do that with many of the remaining FA pitching options. 

It will not make people happy, and is far from sexy, but I am starting to expect two bargain bin starters on one year deals being added to the 2020 team. The Central is winnable, but James' point about going from low 70's wins to near 90 is not easy to do in a single offseason. Overpaying now for pitching we may not even want in twelve months is a difficult decision. I am not here to carry water or to say this is an acceptable approach, but long term it may be in our best interests. 

Our farm is top heavy and fairly thin on depth that we should not be stealing from at this stage to bandaid the MLB roster. 

Colome/Herrera come off the books after 2020, opening up nearly $18.8 million in payroll. Yes, we will need to address the bullpen, but that breathing room will be nice. We need internal options to develop and be MLB ready. 

 

This organization has such a losing mentality.  Never seen a front office more afraid to try and actually compete in a given season.  Only having one option in Wheeler and failing to get him is terrible business.

[Moan4Yoan]

5 minutes ago, steveno89 said:

https://theathletic.com/1460540/2019/12/16/mailbag-where-do-the-white-sox-go-from-here-and-will-they-ever-sign-a-scott-boras-client/?source=shared-article

James does a great job at answering questions and alluding to what the front office is likely dealing with. Missing on Wheeler was huge, because they projected him to still be a quality option in years two, three and four, whereas you really cannot do that with many of the remaining FA pitching options. 

It will not make people happy, and is far from sexy, but I am starting to expect two bargain bin starters on one year deals being added to the 2020 team. The Central is winnable, but James' point about going from low 70's wins to near 90 is not easy to do in a single offseason. Overpaying now for pitching we may not even want in twelve months is a difficult decision. I am not here to carry water or to say this is an acceptable approach, but long term it may be in our best interests. 

Our farm is top heavy and fairly thin on depth that we should not be stealing from at this stage to bandaid the MLB roster. 

Colome/Herrera come off the books after 2020, opening up nearly $18.8 million in payroll. Yes, we will need to address the bullpen, but that breathing room will be nice. We need internal options to develop and be MLB ready. 

 

How are two bargain basement starters better than one of Ryu/Keuchel and a secondary flier SP if the Sox are trying to win next year?

Edited December 16, 2019 by Moan4Yoan

[SoxBlanco]

1 minute ago, Chicago White Sox said:

What’s going to happen in 2021 though when Vaughn is up?  I was much more in favor of the rotating DH idea prior to the Abreu extension.

I would just let Collins get as many at bats as possible this year, and then let the situation take care of itself. If Collins struggles all year, then he's not really in the plans moving forward and Vaughn comes up to pair with Abreu at the 1B/DH positions. If Collins turns into a legit bat, then perhaps somebody gets traded for pitching help next offseason (and in this scenario, Collins would be a much more valuable trade chip than he is right now). Or maybe you just let McCann walk and roll with Grandal, Collins, Abreu, and Vaughn for C, DH, and 1B in 2021.

[steveno89]

Just now, Moan4Yoan said:

How are two bargain basement starters better than one of Ryu/Keuchel if the Sox are trying to win next year?

I am not saying this is necessarily what I want to happen, but it is looking more and more likely that this is what happens. 

Ryu is made of glass and is unlikely to leave the West Coast. Keuchel makes degrees of sense, but really depends on at what cost and how many years. 

Just now, fathom said:

This organization has such a losing mentality.  Never seen a front office more afraid to try and actually compete in a given season.  Only having one option in Wheeler and failing to get him is terrible business.

There is not a clear answer following the miss on Wheeler. Unfortunate, but reality. 

[Hatchetman]

The reality is if you wanted Wheeler that badly make him an offer he can't refuse.

[fathom]

Just now, Hatchetman said:

The reality is if you wanted Wheeler that badly make him an offer he can't refuse.

By Hahn’s own words, it’s a binary world he lives in. They failed to land him, end of story. Just like last year when they failed.

[Moan4Yoan]

4 minutes ago, steveno89 said:

I am not saying this is necessarily what I want to happen, but it is looking more and more likely that this is what happens. 

Ryu is made of glass and is unlikely to leave the West Coast. Keuchel makes degrees of sense, but really depends on at what cost and how many years. 

There is not a clear answer following the miss on Wheeler. Unfortunate, but reality. 

Yes, there was and still is.  Go after the next best options...

Bumgarner for $85 million which was $33 million dollars less than Wheeler signed for.  Ryu and Keuchel are still available.

There were and still are options available.  Just because you miss out on your “Plan A” doesn’t mean you completely stop trying.  That is a loser’s mentality.

You seem to be making excuses for Hahn and the Sox. 

Edited December 16, 2019 by Moan4Yoan

[ChiSox59]

17 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

What’s going to happen in 2021 though when Vaughn is up?  I was much more in favor of the rotating DH idea prior to the Abreu extension.

Collins is very likely out of the equation by then, but I guess I'd rather see him develop into an asset in the meantime as opposed to sitting on the bench most of the season.  I'd honestly rather Collins play in AAA than play 1x per week as Grandal's backup and the only other catcher on the roster.  I also think we'll be able to get more out of Grandal if we don't catch him 6x a week.  He's worn down a lot late in seasons, I think keeping McCann and getting Grandal regular work at DH/1B is best for all parties.

For me, its 3 options with Collins for 2020:

1) Primary DH against RHP and 3rd catcher.  

2) AAA.

3) Traded.

Trading McCann and Collins being the strict backup catcher would my last choice. 

We'll figure out 2021 later.  

Edited December 16, 2019 by ChiSox59

[SoxBlanco]

Just now, Hatchetman said:

The reality is if you wanted Wheeler that badly make him an offer he can't refuse.

Come on.  I've seen posts like this a couple times recently, and it's ridiculous. We were all thinking 5 for $110M could possibly get it done (some people were even saying anything more than $105/$110 would make it a bad deal)  The Sox offered 5 for $125.  It's easy to judge in hindsight, but that is a great offer.  What did you want them to offer?  6 years for $180M?

[centerfieldsixers]

1 minute ago, SoxBlanco said:

Come on.  I've seen posts like this a couple times recently, and it's ridiculous. We were all thinking 5 for $110M could possibly get it done (some people were even saying anything more than $105/$110 would make it a bad deal)  The Sox offered 5 for $125.  It's easy to judge in hindsight, but that is a great offer.  What did you want them to offer?  6 years for $180M?

Some on here want to pay Baumgarner 120 and Kuechel 80 just to get them

[Hatchetman]

1 minute ago, SoxBlanco said:

Come on.  I've seen posts like this a couple times recently, and it's ridiculous. We were all thinking 5 for $110M could possibly get it done (some people were even saying anything more than $105/$110 would make it a bad deal)  The Sox offered 5 for $125.  It's easy to judge in hindsight, but that is a great offer.  What did you want them to offer?  6 years for $180M?

I don't care what they offer him. They need a #2 starter. I'm not wedded to Wheeler, but apparently the Sox were.

[ChiSox59]

1 minute ago, SoxBlanco said:

Come on.  I've seen posts like this a couple times recently, and it's ridiculous. We were all thinking 5 for $110M could possibly get it done (some people were even saying anything more than $105/$110 would make it a bad deal)  The Sox offered 5 for $125.  It's easy to judge in hindsight, but that is a great offer.  What did you want them to offer?  6 years for $180M?

Some people do, "its not my money".  But then they'll b**** down the road when Wheeler turns into a garbage contract.  "How could Hahn be so stupid!  Such a dumb overpay!" Can never please those types of fans.  

[SoCalChiSox]

3 minutes ago, SoxBlanco said:

Come on.  I've seen posts like this a couple times recently, and it's ridiculous. We were all thinking 5 for $110M could possibly get it done (some people were even saying anything more than $105/$110 would make it a bad deal)  The Sox offered 5 for $125.  It's easy to judge in hindsight, but that is a great offer.  What did you want them to offer?  6 years for $180M?

If there's no reasonable backup plan then if it means overpaying by 15m instead of 5m or whatever you have to do it. After all, we now have "unprecedented financial flexibility" or so we were told.

It sucks to overpay but it's worth it compared to basically waiving the white flag for one of Giolito/Moncada's remaining four years which it seems they are now doing. 

[Hatchetman]

2 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

But then they'll b**** down the road when Wheeler turns into a garbage contract. 

Nobody will be b****ing if the Sox go to the World Series. I assume that's what we're trying to do. Or not.

[SoxBlanco]

Just now, Hatchetman said:

I don't care what they offer him. They need a #2 starter. I'm not wedded to Wheeler, but apparently the Sox were.

Actually, it's apparent they weren't...otherwise they would have made him an offer like 6 years for $180. They offered a huge contract and he chose a different team. Now they move on. 

The important thing people don't seem to grasp is that there weren't/aren't a lot of good options after Wheeler.  Just like the RF options, they all have flaws. So we have to make a decision on whether we want to overpay for a flawed option, or just sign a couple 1 year guys.  I would personally go hard for Ryu, but I understand not wanting to do that.

[SonofaRoache]

3 minutes ago, SoxBlanco said:

Come on.  I've seen posts like this a couple times recently, and it's ridiculous. We were all thinking 5 for $110M could possibly get it done (some people were even saying anything more than $105/$110 would make it a bad deal)  The Sox offered 5 for $125.  It's easy to judge in hindsight, but that is a great offer.  What did you want them to offer?  6 years for $180M?

We, as fans, do not know the true market for a player. If Wheeler's market was in the 110's, the 125 offer was more than acceptable. But, if you feel that this man is the only FA worth your time, and would help you win multiple titles, then you do what the Yankees did and pay up.