Sox acquire Nomar Mazara for Steele Walker

[steveno89]

1 minute ago, BigHurt3515 said:

Tim Anderson walked 15 times last year in 50 more PAs, do you want to get rid of him? Eloy had the same amount of walks has Nomar and he is 23, want to get rid of him?

Anderson won the AL batting crown, you really cannot compare him with Mazara

[poppysox]

2 hours ago, Flash said:

Wow...really polarizing trade for this board. I'm on the side of good trade. I can see platton with Mazara getting 400 ABs and Engel/Leury the rest. Mazara mashed RH pitching and is young. I'll be PO'd if we don't come away with a rotation piece but, in a vacuum, Mazara is fine.

I'm fine with the trade as I've had a chance to familiarize myself with Mazara.  He came from out of the blue and took us all by surprise but he has a good chance to fit really nicely.  We are appreciably stronger in Center, RF, 2nd, DH and Catcher.  2020 WS are going to flourish or fail bases on building up the pitching staff.

[The Sir]

2 minutes ago, 2Deep said:

As of now the line-up looks something like this after the 1st few weeks of the season:

Anderson SS

Moncada 3B

Abreu 1B

Grandal C

Eloy LF

Mazara RF

Robert CF

DH???

Madrigal 2B

 

Put Robert at the top. Let the man get as many ABs as possible. That's where his future is anyway.

Madrigal 2B

Moncada 3B

Robert CF

Eloy LF

Grandal C

Abreu 1B

Anderson SS

Mazara RF

McCann/Collins DH

Yeah, I know, our dork of a manager will never drop Abreu from the 3 hole.

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

Just now, Harold's Leg Lift said:

I do not want that.  These guys are big and strong enough that they don't have to try to hit  home runs to hit home runs.  Consistentlty drive the baseball and it will go over the fence.  Be dangerous.  

Yeah, he just needs to worry about hitting the ball in the air to maximize his profile. Launch angle is just a hot term for lifting the baseball/hitting it in the air. 

I don't think you can hope he's Frank Thomas - hitting a ton of line drives but his power is so massive they are homers. I think he needs to lift the ball, but his launch angle is irrelevant if he's lifting the ball in general.

[joejoesox]

19 minutes ago, FelixGordon27 said:

I understand why a lot of White Sox Nation is up in arms over this deal - they're afraid it's another small market move of mediocrity... But let's all relax and let the offseason play out.

It's a small, low-risk move to fill a hole in the short-term that should allow more resources to be allocated toward pitching. Isn't the lineup pretty set over the next 3-6 years without a big $$ right fielder? CF Robert/3B Moncada/LF Jimenez/1B Vaughn/DH Abreu/C Grandal/SS Anderson/2B Madrigal ... I am good with that lineup and would rather $15M per go toward a SP or multiple bullpen arms. 

Of course they need to spend the $ and we need to hold ownership accountable, but rushing to spend the $ just because you can = losing mentality.

 

idk if people are up in arms about it.  it's just that there were better trade options out there that would have costs some actual prospects but would have brought back a real RF

[Balta1701]

1 minute ago, poppysox said:

I'm fine with the trade as I've had a chance to familiarize myself with Mazara.  He came from out of the blue and took us all by surprise but he has a good chance to fit really nicely.  We are appreciably stronger in Center, RF, 2nd, DH and Catcher.  2020 WS are going to flourish or fail bases on building up the pitching staff.

Just remember, you said repeatedly how disappointed you'd be if the payroll wasn't $160 million. They're passing on better options to keep the payroll low, and they've already missed the 3 highest quality starting pitchers.

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

4 minutes ago, BigHurt3515 said:

Tim Anderson walked 15 times last year in 50 more PAs, do you want to get rid of him? Eloy had the same amount of walks has Nomar and he is 23, want to get rid of him?

I mean, Nomar Mazara's hands are no where near as good as Tim Anderson. If Mazara is off balance at the plate, it's an out. If Tim Anderson is off balance at the plate, he can be productive still. 

Tim needs to walk more - not a lot more, but his aggression needs to improve a little bit if he wants to sustain his success over a long period of time. I have no doubts Tim can succeed like this as long as his physical gifts are in their prime, but those will eventually diminish and his approach needs to be ready for that.

[TaylorStSox]

7 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

Call me crazy, but I think we see another step forward for Tim Anderson this year.

Tim was able to make a huge change last year to his profile, and it propelled him forward. The guy has improved so much, and I just don't think he's done growing.

I wouldn't be shocked to see Tim with a WAR around 5 next year. I think his defense takes a huge step forward, and I wouldn't be shocked to see better at bats out of him in general knowing that his main focus this off-season is controlled aggression. He learned to find his pitch and attack it, now he needs to shrink that down and work counts a little more. I have at on of faith in Anderson; I know its superlative, but his bat speed and hands are just other wordly. 

Oh, I actually love his defense. The tools are glaring. I just expect some offensive regression, especially in his ba. 

[striker]

This move only makes sense if they still land with a ~$120m payroll. That would just mean more $ is now available to fill the other holes. I'm hoping Price, JDM and $

[Quin]

2 minutes ago, The Sir said:

Put Robert at the top. Let the man get as many ABs as possible. That's where his future is anyway.

Madrigal 2B

Moncada 3B

Robert CF

Eloy LF

Grandal C

Abreu 1B

Anderson SS

Mazara RF

McCann/Collins DH

Yeah, I know, our dork of a manager will never drop Abreu from the 3 hole.

Anderson should be batting 1st or 2nd, where he had his best splits last season.

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

Just now, TaylorStSox said:

Oh, I actually love his defense. The tools are glaring. I just expect some offensive regression, especially in his ba. 

Yeah, but I think his power and ISO could continue to grow. His k-rate has been plummeting, and his ISO has been growing. He gets his ISO up to 190 and his walk rate goes up a smidge, and you're actually looking at a better offensive season despite the BABIP regression.

Also, if they keep these baseballs there's honestly no guarantee his BABIP comes down. Something like 4 of the top 10 BABIPs in the last 3 decades happened last year because of the baseballs. 

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

Tim could have lost 10 points of his wRC+ last year, and if he played SS like he did his third year in the league he would have been on a 5.5 WAR pace; so he actually would have been a better overall player. Tim could become a superstar if his bat grows none and his glove returns to the levels he's shown he's capable.

[ptatc]

5 minutes ago, The Sir said:

Put Robert at the top. Let the man get as many ABs as possible. That's where his future is anyway.

Madrigal 2B

Moncada 3B

Robert CF

Eloy LF

Grandal C

Abreu 1B

Anderson SS

Mazara RF

McCann/Collins DH

Yeah, I know, our dork of a manager will never drop Abreu from the 3 hole.

They may want to bat Robert down in the order to start. He is going to struggle mightily early on with his swing and miss approach.  

This board will be freaking out with his early struggles. RH/KW will be crucified over their poor talent evaluation. I can see it now " I dont care if he looked good in the minors, they should have known he would suck at the MLB level"

It will be an entertaining summer.

[Balta1701]

21 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

I'll be upset if they don't spend some more money. They don't need to spend it all if they love Springer or something for next year, but there's no point in acquiring a bunch of financial flexibility with years of failure only to not spend the money. This team was running 130 million dollar payrolls 14 years ago; it's embarrassing that they aren't near that number yet because in reality they should blow past that in the next few years.

Well first of all - if they need Springer next year then that means this trade was pretty crappy because Springer would take over this guy's position.

But if this trade works well, then it's created another clock - if Mazara bumps up to a 3-win player this year, great - we have exactly 2 shots with the guy before he walks as a free agent for an Ozuna-caliber deal. 

They clearly need to bring in pitching, but the top 3 from this year are off the market already, and next year's options don't have the kind of top of the rotation guys who were available this year - only 2nd tier pitching, comparable to Ryu and Bumgarner. Paxton, Bauer, Odorizzi, Stroman.

So if they don't go out overpay for moderately good but questionable pitching this year, they're going to be asking themselves next year if they want to overpay for moderately good but questionable pitching next year. And if they don't want to spend that this year, and instead keep their payroll under control by going and signing Nova and someone else like that - why are they for guys with so little control?

Basically, they have to go add a high priced starting pitcher right now otherwise they're failing to do what you want them to do, and they're wasting the limited time with Mazara in the process.

[DurhamStance]

I don't hate the move, but I see why many don't like it. That being said, this is a smart baseball man, so it's slightly encouraging--

 

 

[BackDoorBreach]

8 minutes ago, striker said:

This move only makes sense if they still land with a ~$120m payroll. That would just mean more $ is now available to fill the other holes. I'm hoping Price, JDM and $

JDM doesn't make any sense now because we gave Jose Abreu a 3 year 50 million dollar extension.

[bmags]

1 minute ago, Balta1701 said:

Well first of all - if they need Springer next year then that means this trade was pretty crappy because Springer would take over this guy's position.

But if this trade works well, then it's created another clock - if Mazara bumps up to a 3-win player this year, great - we have exactly 2 shots with the guy before he walks as a free agent for an Ozuna-caliber deal. 

They clearly need to bring in pitching, but the top 3 from this year are off the market already, and next year's options don't have the kind of top of the rotation guys who were available this year - only 2nd tier pitching, comparable to Ryu and Bumgarner. Paxton, Bauer, Odorizzi, Stroman.

So if they don't go out overpay for moderately good but questionable pitching this year, they're going to be asking themselves next year if they want to overpay for moderately good but questionable pitching next year. And if they don't want to spend that this year, and instead keep their payroll under control by going and signing Nova and someone else like that - why are they for guys with so little control?

Basically, they have to go add a high priced starting pitcher right now otherwise they're failing to do what you want them to do, and they're wasting the limited time with Mazara in the process.

If Mazara hits, they could still sign Springer and be in a great position because they have a cheap Arb guy to sell off for more assets. OR they could keep him, move him to LF and DH Eloy if he doesn't improve defense. To which you say "what about vaughn" and you can see what a good situation the white sox are in if that happens. But yes, the key is signing a very good player that is a no doubt upgrade! not shuffling similarly profiled players.

[Balta1701]

2 minutes ago, bmags said:

If Mazara hits, they could still sign Springer and be in a great position because they have a cheap Arb guy to sell off for more assets. OR they could keep him, move him to LF and DH Eloy if he doesn't improve defense. To which you say "what about vaughn" and you can see what a good situation the white sox are in if that happens. But yes, the key is signing a very good player that is a no doubt upgrade! not shuffling similarly profiled players.

Nomar Mazara will not be a cheap arb guy. If he improves to a 3-win player, he's a 3-win player under control for 1 year with a salary closing on $10 million.  If he doesn't hit any better, he's a non-tender candidate as a 1-win player with a salary near $8 million. He's going to get you as much as Avi Garcia brought us.

And I shouldn't have to point out why moving Eloy to DH or why trading Eloy with Mazara under control through 2021 would be a bad idea.

[ptatc]

2 minutes ago, DurhamStance said:

I don't hate the move, but I see why many don't like it. That being said, this is a smart baseball man, so it's slightly encouraging--

 

 

I agree with this. This is a better option than paying what ozuna or Castellanos will get. If it doesnt work out, they aren't out much and can get better options next year when they should contend for the playoffs.

[DurhamStance]

1 minute ago, ptatc said:

I agree with this. This is a better option than paying what ozuna or Castellanos will get. If it doesnt work out, they aren't out much and can get better options next year when they should contend for the playoffs.

Also completely depends on what else they do this offseason. If this is it? Yeah, that's awful, but if they do in fact address pitching, sure, it's fine 

[Dick Allen]

4 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Well first of all - if they need Springer next year then that means this trade was pretty crappy because Springer would take over this guy's position.

But if this trade works well, then it's created another clock - if Mazara bumps up to a 3-win player this year, great - we have exactly 2 shots with the guy before he walks as a free agent for an Ozuna-caliber deal. 

They clearly need to bring in pitching, but the top 3 from this year are off the market already, and next year's options don't have the kind of top of the rotation guys who were available this year - only 2nd tier pitching, comparable to Ryu and Bumgarner. Paxton, Bauer, Odorizzi, Stroman.

So if they don't go out overpay for moderately good but questionable pitching this year, they're going to be asking themselves next year if they want to overpay for moderately good but questionable pitching next year. And if they don't want to spend that this year, and instead keep their payroll under control by going and signing Nova and someone else like that - why are they for guys with so little control?

Basically, they have to go add a high priced starting pitcher right now otherwise they're failing to do what you want them to do, and they're wasting the limited time with Mazara in the process.

Better than none. 

Calhoun would be a one year guy. One shot. 

Let's not make Steele Walker, although the name is great, a future HOFer. 

And what ever happened to the narrative if the guy was good, the fact that he played for the White Sox increased his chances of not walking? Remember when the Sox were thinking of trading for Machado, and how many bought into that?

[Balta1701]

Just now, ptatc said:

I agree with this. This is a better option than paying what ozuna or Castellanos will get. If it doesnt work out, they aren't out much and can get better options next year when they should contend for the playoffs.

"This trade for Samardzija is a better option than paying what Scherzer or Lester will get, if it doesn't work out they aren't  out much, not like they gave up a future MVP candidate."

[bmags]

Just now, Balta1701 said:

Nomar Mazara will not be a cheap arb guy. If he improves to a 3-win player, he's a 3-win player under control for 1 year with a salary closing on $10 million.  If he doesn't hit any better, he's a non-tender candidate as a 1-win player with a salary near $8 million. He's going to get you as much as Avi Garcia brought us.

What are you talking about, a 1 year 8 mill 3 WAR guy is what Joc Pederson is now and he was clearly expensive enough that they went after Mazara instead. We gave up a top ten prospect for Mazara, what do you think Pederson gets?

And if he fails...and you have Springer. So your "oh no this deal is WORSE if we get springer" I can't get mad about that because it is all predicated on having Springer.

[Wisebri224]

3 hours ago, The Sir said:

Such a bad argument. If he’s good, then we got a good player for two years. Period.

This is the same logic that demands we keep Robert down for two weeks in April so that we can control him through 2026. I get having some thought to the future, but having Robert that year doesn’t mean as much if we’ve lost Moncada, Gio, Anderson, etc, and done nothing to sustain our success with good drafting and development.

The argument is, if he slugs for two years, great, but there were options to improve longer than two years then have the conversation again.  If they actually hit on this, will they actually re-sign a Boras agent or let him walk because he's too pricey.  Sorry when the FO continues to play this back and forth narrative, it gets confusing for fans and eveyone on what the plan is exactly.....what LONG term benefit could this have???

[bmags]

1 minute ago, Balta1701 said:

"This trade for Samardzija is a better option than paying what Scherzer or Lester will get, if it doesn't work out they aren't  out much, not like they gave up a future MVP candidate."

Everything is Samardjiza trade. Even when it's not at all a samardjiza trade.