Sox acquire Nomar Mazara for Steele Walker

[TaylorStSox]

1 minute ago, Moan4Yoan said:

The dusty hideous object named Mazara doesn’t fit our needs either, other than being cheap.

That dusty, hideous 25 year old. Haha

[chitownsportsfan]

Someone just sticky my thoughts on to @Moan4Yoanposts thanks.

There's a saying in Chicago, I think it's in Seattle too, it's -- YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR.

Good luck to us fans and the Sox on this dumpster dive.  I'm sure this is the ONE that really pans out for everybody.  I'm sure this time they trade a middling prospect it won't come back to haunt them.  Why?  Because Rick Hahn has a track record of success with moves like this.

 

[ptatc]

1 minute ago, Moan4Yoan said:

The dusty hideous object named Mazara doesn’t fit our needs either, other than being cheap.

It improves the team, without hamstringing them for years to come like a Castellanos contract would.

[Moan4Yoan]

1 minute ago, TaylorStSox said:

That dusty, hideous 25 year old. Haha

I’m sure someone could come up with a list of highly touted 25 year old major leaguers who have done nothing in the league thus far that you wouldn’t want to acquire.

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

2 minutes ago, BackDoorBreach said:

That's not the point or the question I asked.  The Sox aren't tanking any more and their window just opened.  Castellanos was garbage his first year and has been worth 5.8 fWAR the last 2 years.  We aren't in a position to fuck around with "untapped potential" vs actual MLB production.

The problem is, you've drawn conclusions on Mazara's career based on his performance as a 21-24 year old big leaguer. I don't trust their big league scouting for position players, so I am hesitant, but people really need to stop acting like Mazara's true talent ceiling is that of a 1 WAR outfielder. 

[TomPickle]

8 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

I mean, when Dickerson was 26 he was a .6 WAR player, when he was 27 he was a 1.1 WAR season.

Guys get better.

He went from 65 games played with a 125 wRC+ to 148 games played with a 101 wRC+. What a terrible example lol.

[Lillian]

My goodness. Mazara is not a "reclamation project," nor is he merely a "prospect". Please, some perspective is called for, here. He is a young player, who was brought up to the Big Leagues, very early in his professional career and has already performed well enough to be considered a bonafide Major Leaguer. However, given his age, there is still room for more production, and a reasonable chance that he can tap into what is, regarded by many to be, significant untapped potential. He has already put up at least one season that was very impressive, especially for a player who was only 22 at the time. He was injured for a month of the season, last year, but still hit respectably. I just can't understand the hyperbolic reactions to the loss of one of our several young outfield prospects. While Walker may have been ranked above guys like Adolfo, Basabe and Rutherford, he was not clearly that much better of a prospect. They are all in the same tier.

Moreover, if the more important objective of the front office is to shore up the pitching, this move only means that they have more money to allocate for the rotation, than they would have, if they had spent big on a right fielder. For me, it all hinges upon what they can accomplish, in the pitching department. I understand that several of the top arms are already off the board, however there are other viable options, especially if the Sox employ the strategy of taking on another team's big contract. That approach offers several advantages. The remaining years are almost certainly going to be less than the length of the new contracts being signed. In addition, there are no draft picks sacrificed. And finally, as I mentioned elsewhere, teams who are saddled with large burdensome contracts, in need of shedding salary, could be sufficiently motivated, even desperate, to unload a viable piece for our rotation. Think Price, from the Bosox. 

The point is that any conclusions, regarding this off season, are very premature. Isn't the best approach to simply be patient and see what unfolds? 

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

2 minutes ago, chitownsportsfan said:

Someone just sticky my thoughts on to @Moan4Yoanposts thanks.

There's a saying in Chicago, I think it's in Seattle too, it's -- YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR.

Good luck to us fans and the Sox on this dumpster dive.  I'm sure this is the ONE that really pans out for everybody.  I'm sure this time they trade a middling prospect it won't come back to haunt them.  Why?  Because Rick Hahn has a track record of success with moves like this.

 

Do you think Hahn's prospect trading and trading for prospects has been a massive failure? I certainly don't.

If you are going to point to Tatis, that's laughable. Every team in baseball has been snake bit by a deal like that in their existence. Friedman traded the ROY superstar for Josh Fields. Shit happens.

The Sox MiLB evaluations really haven't been bad. Their MLB evaluations have been bad though.

[BackDoorBreach]

4 minutes ago, TaylorStSox said:

Castellanos and Ozuna are all star calibre players? Again, Castellanos has put up 10 WAR over 3700 plate appearances. He's a fine hitter, but he's no loss. 

Ozuna has been an All-Star twice, and Castellanos put up over 1000 OPS with the Cubs after he got out of Comerica.

Castellanos put up more WAR this year than Mazara has in 4 years.  What the fuck are you even trying to argue? This isn't 2017.

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

2 minutes ago, TomPickle said:

He went from 65 games played with a 125 wRC+ to 148 games played with a 101 wRC+. What a terrible example lol.

How is it a bad example? He was a 1.1 WAR player through 140+ games played. 

[Moan4Yoan]

5 minutes ago, ptatc said:

It improves the team, without hamstringing them for years to come like a Castellanos contract would.

The Sox are supposed to have money to spend after spending zilch over the past few years.  If a Castellanos or Ozuna contract was ever going to hamstring the Sox for years to come, how are they ever going to acquire the starting pitching they need?  How is there any hope at all if a $70 to $100 million dollar contract hamstrings them?

You are also making it sounds like expensive outfielders like Castellanos/Ozuna were the only options the Sox had over Mazara.

Edited December 11, 2019 by Moan4Yoan

[SoCalChiSox]

I'd like to see who the platoon partner is, if it's not Leury.

Any cheap RH RFers on the market?

[TomPickle]

2 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

How is it a bad example? He was a 1.1 WAR player through 140+ games played. 

WAR is a counting stat. He was worse in his time played having that 1.1 WAR season than when he had his 0.6 WAR season.

He also had a 2.8 fWAR season the year before his 0.6 WAR season, something Mazara has never come close to doing. The two players are not similar in career trajectory at all.

[caulfield12]

Can’t wait until Betts and/or Springer sign extensions.  Then the 2021 FA market will be even more garbage.  

I guess it would be worse to have a 100ish win team like the Twins and do little to improve it.(Of course, that means they end up signing Ryu, Keuchel or Bumgarner...all decent moves for that stadium.)

[pcq]

Fans should suspend their disbelief at least until Spring Training. Surely they will attempt to make further transactions. Mazura does bring some production, could hit well in Chicago and is a better glove man than some of the other choices. The top talent is just not flocking to the South Side during this mediocre era.

[BackDoorBreach]

3 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

The problem is, you've drawn conclusions on Mazara's career based on his performance as a 21-24 year old big leaguer. I don't trust their big league scouting for position players, so I am hesitant, but people really need to stop acting like Mazara's true talent ceiling is that of a 1 WAR outfielder. 

But that is not where we should be evaluating on a 2 year deal when we should be paying for (or trading for) above replacement level players when our window is open.  I don't care what his true talent level is when he's 28, that will have nothing to do with the White Sox or this rebuild.

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

Just now, TomPickle said:

WAR is a counting stat. He was worse in his time played having that 1.1 WAR season than when he had his 0.6 WAR season.

He also had a 2.8 fWAR season the year before his 0.6 WAR season, something Mazara has never come close to doing. The two players are not similar in career trajectory at all.

Sure, they're nothing alike in trajectory because by the time Dickerson warranted a call-up he was a whole 3 seasons older than Mazara.

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

Just now, BackDoorBreach said:

But that is not where we should be evaluating on a 2 year deal when we should be paying for (or trading for) above replacement level players when our window is open.  I don't care what his true talent level is when he's 28, that will have nothing to do with the White Sox or this rebuild.

I care what his true talent level is, because that's a ceiling of untapped potential that he may never get to, but if he does he's a huge bargain for the next two years. That's the gamble you take. If you trust the offense - Eloy, Yoan, Robert, TA, Yaz and on... you really don't need to sacrifice your entire defense (Castellanos) just to add another bat.

[TomPickle]

I will say Mazara's similar batters have some interesting names on there

Similar Batters through 24

1. Jeff Burroughs (973.9)
2. Jeff Francoeur (968.3)
3. Harold Baines (963.0) *
4. Max West (954.8)
5. Dwight Evans (951.3)
6. Jay Bruce (946.9)
7. Sixto Lezcano (946.8)
8. Corey Patterson (942.5)
9. Joe Pepitone (939.5)
10. Andre Dawson (939.2) *

* - Signifies Hall of Famer

[35thstreetswarm]

11 minutes ago, TaylorStSox said:

Castellanos and Ozuna are all star calibre players? Again, Castellanos has put up 10 WAR over 3700 plate appearances. He's a fine hitter, but he's no loss. 

Ozuna is a two-time all-star with a 6 WAR season *two years ago.*  If we're willing to project Mazara to produce beyond anything he's ever achieved before, seems only fair to be willing to project alternative players to perform at a level they have actually achieved.

[Moan4Yoan]

5 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

The problem is, you've drawn conclusions on Mazara's career based on his performance as a 21-24 year old big leaguer. I don't trust their big league scouting for position players, so I am hesitant, but people really need to stop acting like Mazara's true talent ceiling is that of a 1 WAR outfielder. 

His true ceiling can be as high as you want to hope it to be.  But the sad truth is that he has been very consistently bad throughout his first four seasons in the league.  If you choose to go by his pretty consistent stats over his supposed unlocked potential, Mazara isn’t even a full 1 WAR outfielder!

2016:  0.5 WAR

2017:  -0.1 WAR

2018:  0.8 WAR

2019:  0.7 WAR

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

Just now, TomPickle said:

I will say Mazara's similar batters have some interesting names on there

Similar Batters through 24

1. Jeff Burroughs (973.9)
2. Jeff Francoeur (968.3)
3. Harold Baines (963.0) *
4. Max West (954.8)
5. Dwight Evans (951.3)
6. Jay Bruce (946.9)
7. Sixto Lezcano (946.8)
8. Corey Patterson (942.5)
9. Joe Pepitone (939.5)
10. Andre Dawson (939.2) *

* - Signifies Hall of Famer

Being called up at 21 years old does not happen very often. Guys called up as young as Mazara have a high frequency of becoming very good big leaguers. It doesn't mean they all do as there are certainly young flameouts and he may be one, but history is on Mazara's side if you analyze him this way.

[ptatc]

6 minutes ago, BackDoorBreach said:

Ozuna has been an All-Star twice, and Castellanos put up over 1000 OPS with the Cubs after he got out of Comerica.

Castellanos put up more WAR this year than Mazara has in 4 years.  What the fuck are you even trying to argue? This isn't 2017.

Castellanos has a career 797 OPS and is an awful defensive player.

Mazara has a career 754 OPS improving each year and a below average fielder.

 

[Hatchetman]

2019 wRC+

Castellanos 121

Mazara 94

There really is no comparison.

[sullythered]

People are arguing in circles on this.  As with all things, there is nuance to this that keeps it from simply being "good" or "bad."  The Sox made a trade that sent a 23 year old middling prospect for a 25 year old replacement-level player who some people think has potential for a breakout season.  Even if he just stays a replacement-level player, that's like a 9 WAR improvement over RF last season, so in that regard, it was a good move.  If he somehow rises to his potential (which I feel is unlikely) it will have been a great move.

IF, however, this is the biggest post-Yasmani Grandal move that the Sox make this offseason, it will have been a huge disappointment.  Not just because of fan expectation, but what they, themselves, have been proudly boasting for all to hear.  If the "money is spent" and they add 2 starting pitchers, or a SP and a good RP, or some other combination of good players at need positions, then this will have been fine.  If, for some reason, they now stop pursuing the many options that are currently available in FA and trade, then this move looks bad.