Sox acquire Nomar Mazara for Steele Walker

[Dick Allen]

4 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

Sure, but it doesn't change the premise that winning will always be more fun than losing. 

Billy Pierce was a great man; his team losing cost him a spot in the Hall of Fame. To listen to him talk about the White Sox throughout my childhood was always a treat; he had nothing negative to say about his time as a big leaguer or the team, but losing cost him the honor and praise he deserved. Losing has an impact on things, however small it may be in the grand scheme of life. I grew up loving the White Sox because of the respect they showed to someone like Billy; I admired their sense of family and loyalty. There are things I appreciate about the organization - their treatment of their own has always been positive - but there are also things I just hate in life and that's people who over promise and under deliver.

Billy played when there was a 154 game schedule. Here are the Sox win totals when he was a member of the team:

68,60,84,81,89,91,91,85,90,82,94,87,86. They were under .500 his first 2 seasons and 11 seasons won more games than Rich Hahn has ever won playing 8 more.

[soxfan49]

16 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

I don't think all hope is lost; this team is lucky enough that amazingly their big trade pieces have almost all panned out. 

Kopech and Cease are TBD; but they are clearly high talent big leaguers with some longevity in their futures barring injury.

Eloy and Moncada look like stars.

Lopez looks like an, at worst, serviceable big league arm. 

Dunning is entirely TBD.

Robert is like a walking statue of what a great baseball player should look like.

This team isn't dead in the water because they have a lot of high end talent, but I'm losing face in the organization to maximize that talent. I'm still willing to give them another year, but I don't want to spend hours watching complete garbage again. Can't imagine how disappointing it would be to be in the Cubs position of possibly moving a HOF'er because they claim they can't afford him while having elite revenue numbers. Fans are being taken for a ride by ownerships league wide. Owners have never opened the books, and I can assure you it's for very good reason.

This is exactly it. Kopech, Cease, Giolito, Jimenez, Moncada, Anderson, Robert. That's the core. Those are the guys that have to produce and continue to get better. If they don't, none of this shit matters. They could've gotten Machado, Harper and Rendon and it wouldn't make a difference.

I'm still iffy on developing talent. So far, not so good (clearly) but the growth of the above 7 players is what matters most.

If they're unable to lure or pony up cash for the Rendon's of the world, then they're going to have to use the players outside of the core- Vaughn, Madrigal, Stiever, etc- to trade for established players with some controlled years. This will obviously result in a tough late 2020's after most of the core leaves and then the farm is shit, but if there's a championship or two, it'll be worth it, imo.

[Balta1701]

1 minute ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

I'm merely saying, if the Sox miss next year and make it the 2-3 years after, it's pretty much the same as the Astros making, then missing, and then making it 3 years in a row.

I'm  ok with that. If they miss in 2021 they'll have to replace Mazara and Rodon who are pretty much scrubs. 

But they have to get across some goalpost this season, and "Yay we're in 3rd place but at least we're at .500" is not an accomplishment, not when players start getting far more expensive 1 year later. We're in a thread about a move towards that level.

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

4 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

Billy played when there was a 154 game schedule. Here are the Sox win totals when he was a member of the team:

68,60,84,81,89,91,91,85,90,82,94,87,86. They were under .500 his first 2 seasons and 11 seasons won more games than Rich Hahn has ever won playing 8 more.

Sure, but the difference between the HOF and not for Billy Pierce was the wins. He was every bit as good as Whitey Ford, but his team never got over the hump. The White Sox weren't miserable back then, but their offense wasn't good enough to support Billy's W/L record, and that was all that mattered back then. Billy came up ONE vote shy of the HOF. If he wins one title, or has 1 more 20 win season (say the season he was 15-10 with a 1.9 ERA!), he likely gets in. The margins for Billy making it and not was so slim, and his teams production is likely what cost him. Remember, there weren't 5 playoff teams then.

I'm also not saying the White Sox were just as bad then as they are today.

Edited December 12, 2019 by Look at Ray Ray Run

[TaylorStSox]

Back to Mazara:

I seriously think he can be a breakout player. He oozes talent and has some bright tools. I also think the Sox family environment, especially among the Latin American players, will be very beneficial for him. Those guys all really pull for each other. 

[soxfan49]

2 minutes ago, TaylorStSox said:

Back to Mazara:

I seriously think he can be a breakout player. He oozes talent and has some bright tools. I also think the Sox family environment, especially among the Latin American players, will be very beneficial for him. Those guys all really pull for each other. 

And even if he doesn't imrpove at all from last year, it's cool to know that his .790 overall OPS and .835 OPS vs RHP's will still be useful.

I'm not sure why everyone is acting like they traded Mickey Mantle for Rob Mackowiak here.

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

3 minutes ago, TaylorStSox said:

Back to Mazara:

I seriously think he can be a breakout player. He oozes talent and has some bright tools. I also think the Sox family environment, especially among the Latin American players, will be very beneficial for him. Those guys all really pull for each other. 

This is where I think someone like Ricky Renteria does matter a tiny bit. Ricky is mentally challenged in terms of strategic managing, but it's hard to argue with the culture he breeds in the clubhouse.

I am actually fine with Mazara, but only if it means they are going to use resources elsewhere. If they went cheap there just to be cheap, that kind of sucks. 

[ChiSox59]

1 minute ago, soxfan49 said:

And even if he doesn't imrpove at all from last year, it's cool to know that his .790 overall OPS and .835 OPS vs RHP's will still be useful.

I'm not sure why everyone is acting like they traded Mickey Mantle for Rob Mackowiak here.

I think its less about the trade itself, and more about settling for a pretty meh player in RF.  If the Sox had signed Wheeler, or even Ozuna, I don't think most posters would give a rip about rolling the dice on Mazara as a platoon bat.  Its the order of moves that has everyone frazzled, and the fact they came about and pretty much said he's the RF next year.  Which obviously is what they were going to say regardless of whoever was acquired. 

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

13 minutes ago, TaylorStSox said:

I value their loyalty too. I also like rooting for the underdog, which the Sox will always be. I also don't buy that the Sox don't want to win. I don't they're losing on purpose. If Hahn fails, I'm not going to be mad at him. Such is life, man. Personally, I think he's done a very good job in the rebuild thus far. I think it will stay showing up on the box score this year. 

 

One of the reasons I never wanted Machado is the red flags. One of those flags is that he's an asshole. I'd rather not root for assholes.

I will say this about Machado, I hope everyone silences their absurd "if other teams were involved" nonsense. Clearly, the Yankees, Dodgers, Rangers, Angels and on and on had plenty of money to spend. If they wanted Machado, they would have went out there and got him. Fact remains, a lot of teams didn't think Machado was worth the money he got, and I'm fine with that. I was more upset with how they handled the situation than I was with the end result. 

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

15 minutes ago, TaylorStSox said:

I value their loyalty too. I also like rooting for the underdog, which the Sox will always be. I also don't buy that the Sox don't want to win. I don't they're losing on purpose. If Hahn fails, I'm not going to be mad at him. Such is life, man. Personally, I think he's done a very good job in the rebuild thus far. I think it will stay showing up on the box score this year. 

 

One of the reasons I never wanted Machado is the red flags. One of those flags is that he's an asshole. I'd rather not root for assholes.

And Yes, Jerry has me very conflicted on him because I would love to work for a guy like him - which is how I judge most businesses - and honestly he seems like a great guy to those who work for him. That's a really honorable trait; I just wish he showed the same sense of loyalty and appreciation for the fans as he does his employees.

[asindc]

2 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

I will say this about Machado, I hope everyone silences their absurd "if other teams were involved" nonsense. Clearly, the Yankees, Dodgers, Rangers, Angels and on and on had plenty of money to spend. If they wanted Machado, they would have went out there and got him. Fact remains, a lot of teams didn't think Machado was worth the money he got, and I'm fine with that. I was more upset with how they handled the situation than I was with the end result. 

I think this is a fair assessment.

[Moan4Yoan]

4 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

I think its less about the trade itself, and more about settling for a pretty meh player in RF.  If the Sox had signed Wheeler, or even Ozuna, I don't think most posters would give a rip about rolling the dice on Mazara as a platoon bat.  Its the order of moves that has everyone frazzled, and the fact they came about and pretty much said he's the RF next year.  Which obviously is what they were going to say regardless of whoever was acquired. 

I think you are 100% correct.  But it’s starting to be that I am losing hope that they will acquire any decent starting pitching.  Even signing Keuchel, whom most posters wanted no part of, is beginning to look like a challenge.

Edited December 12, 2019 by Moan4Yoan

[BFirebird]

I am lukewarm about Mazara, but agree a change of scenery could help him break out.  The tools and size are there, maybe he can adjust his approach?  Maybe Menichino & seeing Moncada's approach can help him?  I have no problems with trying it, especially if we can platoon him vs. RHP.

Now, on to the doom and gloom on the board and in White Sox nation here......

I think we need to wait until everything is done before judging this offseason.  Yes, we didn't get Wheeler...or any other high-priced guy.  Wheeler was the only one I thought they had a chance at anyways.  There are some things that are still out there that can be done.  EE could be signed as DH.  They could get a low cost RH RF to platoon with Mazara (Pillar comes to mind). They could sign 2/3 good MLB starters still (Keuchel, Alex Wood - as a flier, Colin McHugh - could be a 5th SP/RP type, Roark, etc).  There are some good options out there in the trade market as well.  We know Hahn knows we need pitching....he isn't blind and has mentioned it NUMEROUS times.  The season doesn't start December 13th.  I say we let it play out and then we can b****.  ?

[TaylorStSox]

I think Ryu is most likely the only impact starter left. The others are just guys to bridge the gap of development among our other starters. That's why I'm not really concerned. The main 4 starters will be the difference makers. We need an innings eater and some leadership. 

Edited December 12, 2019 by TaylorStSox

[ptatc]

32 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

Come on, winning is always more fun than losing. 

Sports is about having fun. Losing to the degree this team has lost has been miserable; don't ask your fan base to suffer through that if you don't intend on rewarding them at the end of the tunnel when the light starts shining through.

I don't know what year you played baseball through, but I can tell you that my years in which we won were certainly more fun than the years in which we lost. I developed bonds and relationships regardless, that I will have for life which is the point of this all, but it's nice to have a bond developed from success instead of failure. 

Winning is more fun. But if you can't enjoy the game for the game then you're more of a fan of winning than the game. One of the most enjoyable games I've ever been to was a 1 hitter pitched by Jack Morris against the Sox. He was dominant and it was a great game.

[steveno89]

4 minutes ago, BFirebird said:

I am lukewarm about Mazara, but agree a change of scenery could help him break out.  The tools and size are there, maybe he can adjust his approach?  Maybe Menichino & seeing Moncada's approach can help him?  I have no problems with trying it, especially if we can platoon him vs. RHP.

Now, on to the doom and gloom on the board and in White Sox nation here......

I think we need to wait until everything is done before judging this offseason.  Yes, we didn't get Wheeler...or any other high-priced guy.  Wheeler was the only one I thought they had a chance at anyways.  There are some things that are still out there that can be done.  EE could be signed as DH.  They could get a low cost RH RF to platoon with Mazara (Pillar comes to mind). They could sign 2/3 good MLB starters still (Keuchel, Alex Wood - as a flier, Colin McHugh - could be a 5th SP/RP type, Roark, etc).  There are some good options out there in the trade market as well.  We know Hahn knows we need pitching....he isn't blind and has mentioned it NUMEROUS times.  The season doesn't start December 13th.  I say we let it play out and then we can b****.  ?

Top 20 remaining FA SP with Porcello signed: 1. Bumgarner 2. Ryu 3. Keuchel 4. Teherán 5. Miley 6. Hill 7. Wood 8. Kim 9. Bailey 10. B. Anderson 11. Gio 12. Nova 13. Smyly 14. Cashner 15. McHugh 16. M. Pérez 17. King Félix 18. Cahill 19. Chacín 20. Harvey

This is what is left out there

[SoxBlanco]

9 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

I think its less about the trade itself, and more about settling for a pretty meh player in RF.  If the Sox had signed Wheeler, or even Ozuna, I don't think most posters would give a rip about rolling the dice on Mazara as a platoon bat.  Its the order of moves that has everyone frazzled, and the fact they came about and pretty much said he's the RF next year.  Which obviously is what they were going to say regardless of whoever was acquired. 

Agreed, but this should be the reaction in March...not right now.  I touched on this earlier today in this thread...

Quote

Let's assume for a minute that the plan was to make a run at Castellanos or Ozuna. If that indeed was the plan, what happens if Ozuna signs somewhere else next week and Castellanos waits until February and ultimately signs somewhere else? Then you are out of luck in RF. As a backup plan, you could buy low on Mazara and use him as your everyday RF if no other acquisitions come to fruition. It sounds weird calling it a backup plan when you make the move BEFORE your attempt at another move, but you certainly wouldn't want to come away completely empty handed in RF. Guys like Mazara, Calhoun, etc. could be moved/gone already by the time Castellanos signs. It also gives you a little more leverage in negotiations with Castellanos because you are no longer desperate for a RF.

I have no idea if this was their line of thinking, but the point is that we need to see how the entire off-season unfolds before jumping off a cliff. 

 

[ptatc]

26 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Great. Win the Wild Card this year and you have some leeway. I am ok with that response as long as everyone agrees that missing the playoffs this season is totally unacceptable. That should be the absolute standard.

I disagree. With the rebuild progressing, it's a winning season this year is the level. Competing for the playoffs from there after is the goal.

Things happen every season that might cuase a team to miss the playoffs. Not every good team makes the playoffs every year. However, they should be in contention for it up until the last few days of the  season.

[steveno89]

2 minutes ago, SoxBlanco said:

Agreed, but this should be the reaction in March...not right now.  I touched on this earlier today in this thread...

 

I do not mind the Sox getting Mazara because worst case if we do not acquire a better RF option we can roll with him, truth

[ChiSox59]

1 minute ago, SoxBlanco said:

Agreed, but this should be the reaction in March...not right now.  I touched on this earlier today in this thread...

 

Yah, I really don't think Ozuna/Castellanos are in the cards, and personally I prefer that.  But at least go sign Ryu, a vet pen arm, and a back end SP.  

Honestly, I am fine the with Mazara/Leury/Engel platoon for 1 season.  Probably a pipedream, but Betts and Springer in RF long term is a fuck load better than Ozuna/Castellanos, and at this juncture, we're still going to have a fuckton of money to spend next offseason.  Tough to count on that at this point, but I think its pretty obvious the Sox want the last major piece of the puzzle moving forward to be a good fit, and not a forced fit.  

[BFirebird]

Just now, steveno89 said:

Top 20 remaining FA SP with Porcello signed: 1. Bumgarner 2. Ryu 3. Keuchel 4. Teherán 5. Miley 6. Hill 7. Wood 8. Kim 9. Bailey 10. B. Anderson 11. Gio 12. Nova 13. Smyly 14. Cashner 15. McHugh 16. M. Pérez 17. King Félix 18. Cahill 19. Chacín 20. Harvey

This is what is left out there

Unfortunately on that list I think Mad Bum and Ryu won't come here.  Mad Bum likes NL and I think Ryu stays in LAD.  Keuchel is interesting and his stuff will probably age well because he doesn't throw hard.  Miley is interesting to me as a 3/4 type.  Wood I mentioned.  McHugh as a swing guy interests me.

Another thing to think of with the trade market....there are rumors that the Rockies are shopping Arenado (which seems weird to me RIGHT after signing him).  If so that means maybe Jon Gray or Marquez could be available.  I really think that Hahn will be looking trade market for a pitcher because FA market is not what he thought it was going to end up...just not really sure who is available.

[soxfan49]

16 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

I think its less about the trade itself, and more about settling for a pretty meh player in RF.  If the Sox had signed Wheeler, or even Ozuna, I don't think most posters would give a rip about rolling the dice on Mazara as a platoon bat.  Its the order of moves that has everyone frazzled, and the fact they came about and pretty much said he's the RF next year.  Which obviously is what they were going to say regardless of whoever was acquired. 

But those exact fans should know they offered Wheeler more but his wife wanted to be close to New Jersey. If the Phillies weren't interested and say it was the Sox vs the Rangers, he'd probably be playing for the Sox, but he's not. If the Sox had offered $150M, he would've come here but those same fans would say "what an overpay! next time let him go to Philly!"

Again, it's a lose lose.

[centerfieldsixers]

4 minutes ago, BFirebird said:

Unfortunately on that list I think Mad Bum and Ryu won't come here.  Mad Bum likes NL and I think Ryu stays in LAD.  Keuchel is interesting and his stuff will probably age well because he doesn't throw hard.  Miley is interesting to me as a 3/4 type.  Wood I mentioned.  McHugh as a swing guy interests me.

Another thing to think of with the trade market....there are rumors that the Rockies are shopping Arenado (which seems weird to me RIGHT after signing him).  If so that means maybe Jon Gray or Marquez could be available.  I really think that Hahn will be looking trade market for a pitcher because FA market is not what he thought it was going to end up...just not really sure who is available.

thats why Wheeler hurt

[BFirebird]

1 minute ago, centerfieldsixers said:

thats why Wheeler hurt

100% agree.  But this is one thing I can't fault Hahn on, unlike Machado.  They put a good offer together and he chose somewhere else...nothing you can do about that.  

[ChiSox59]

5 minutes ago, soxfan49 said:

But those exact fans should know they offered Wheeler more but his wife wanted to be close to New Jersey. If the Phillies weren't interested and say it was the Sox vs the Rangers, he'd probably be playing for the Sox, but he's not. If the Sox had offered $150M, he would've come here but those same fans would say "what an overpay! next time let him go to Philly!"

Again, it's a lose lose.

Yah, we're on the same page.