Sox and Sawks to see if the Price is Right

[CWSpalehoseCWS]

21 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Maybe so but it's unfair to say they should have overpaid more when they already tried over paying. At some point you just have to draw the line. I don't generally like to give the FO too much credit but I think in the Wheeler situation they made a great offer and it was rejected.  Saying they should have offered more is just  a big ole 20/20 hindsight. If you made any post before he was signed saying the Sox should pay more than what he actually signed for please show me and I will consider you a visionary .

Plus he was the one case where the most money didn't matter. He stuck to what was best for his family, and Stone even suggested he didn't want to leave the NL. Drives me nuts how some people think you can hold a gun to every FA head and make them sign with you. The Sox made a good effort and lost. I hope they use that $125M on something else now.

[Moan4Yoan]

1 minute ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

It's still 20/20 hindsight and reactionary to not getting him. There's no guaranteed he would've signed with the Sox even then. You are only saying that based on how the pitching market looks now. He was the 1st good pitcher to be signed and they made the best offer. Any way you try to spin it isn't going to make you're argument any stronger when you have the advantage of now knowing how much is being paid for starting pitching and the Sox didn't .

It’s all speculation.  None of us know what happened.  But I wouldn’t be surprised if Wheeler’s agent came back to the Sox with the amount it would take to sign Wheeler and the Sox declined.

[Moan4Yoan]

3 minutes ago, CWSpalehoseCWS said:

Plus he was the one case where the most money didn't matter. He stuck to what was best for his family, and Stone even suggested he didn't want to leave the NL. Drives me nuts how some people think you can hold a gun to every FA head and make them sign with you. The Sox made a good effort and lost. I hope they use that $125M on something else now.

Don’t hold your breath.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

3 minutes ago, Moan4Yoan said:

It’s all speculation.  None of us know what happened.  But I wouldn’t be surprised if Wheeler’s agent came back to the Sox with the amount it would take to sign Wheeler and the Sox declined.

And I wouldn't be surprised if his agent didn't do that either since we are already pretty sure the Sox made the highest offer.

[scs787]

125 is an incredibly reasonable "Line in the sand." Early predictions for Wheeler were what 90m? There were reports that the Twins offered 100m. The Sox went well beyond what was expected and still lost out. It sucks, but I can't be mad at them for not going well over what should have got them Wheeler......A guy who may not even have been all that great in the AL.

[poppysox]

19 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

It's still 20/20 hindsight and reactionary to not getting him. There's no guaranteed he would've signed with the Sox even then. You are only saying that based on how the pitching market looks now. He was the 1st good pitcher to be signed and they made the best offer. Any way you try to spin it isn't going to make you're argument any stronger when you have the advantage of now knowing how much is being paid for starting pitching and the Sox didn't .

If we offered $130 and he took it...if he was hurt in SP and unable to answer the OD bell...these same people would be blaming RH as being stupid for overpaying for such a mope.  RH just can't win with some of these posters.  Hindsight is never wrong.

[SoCalChiSox]

1 minute ago, scs787 said:

125 is an incredibly reasonable "Line in the sand." Early predictions for Wheeler were what 90m? There were reports that the Twins offered 100m. The Sox went well beyond what was expected and still lost out. It sucks, but I can't be mad at them for not going well over what should have got them Wheeler......A guy who may not even have been all that great in the AL.

I agree 125 was more than reasonable. I'm not blaming them for that. 

What I will blame them for is if we get to March and all they signed is table scraps or had to give up mega assets for a pitcher or had to basically eat price's deal with minimum salary help from BOS for an aging pitcher, or had to give Madbum or Ryu a ridiculous deal just to secure their services, jeopardizing future budgets.

These things would tell me there was no backup plans or contingency planning.

If that's the case, then yeah, I'd rather go up to 130m for Wheeler rather than 100m for Madbum or Ryu. It's an even bigger overpayment but better than the alternative. 

[Lillian]

2 hours ago, EloyJenkins said:

So traderumors just posted a story about Red Sox getting under luxury tax. They don't want to attach prospects to Price but said.. "They are, however, willing to pay down Price’s contract to get it closer to $20MM per year rather than the current $32MM". What is consensus for Price at 3/60. Imo that is solid value, helps hit the window and shouldn't cost too much at all prospect wise. I would honestly take that over Keuchel and the rotation starts looking a lot better.

Ok, we are beginning to make progress. Bloom continues to "insist" that they don't want to attach prospects, however they appear to be openly recognizing that Price's value is considerably less than his contract. So, now we have established two critical factors; 1) Bloom admits that Price is worth substantially less than his contract and 2) that he is desperate to unload salary. Any buyer should be asking Boston what they can do to make it attractive for a team to accommodate their pressing need to unload that contract. Sending anything of value back to Boston shouldn't even be in the discussion. I suspect that the most enticing offer to Bloom would be one which did not ask for the contract to be paid down. 

If I were Hahn, I would tell Bloom the following: We understand that you really want to offload a considerable amount of salary obligations. We agree with your statement that David Price is worth less than the $96 million contract. You concede that it's at leat $36 million dollars more than Price's value. We have consulted various analytics, which assert  that it is closer to $50 million over his value. How much would you value being able to reduce your payroll by $96 million, over the next 3 years? We would be willing to take that entire contract off your hands, but we would need to receive enough value back, in return. Which player, or players can you offer to include in the deal, in order to fairly compensate us for the overpayment on Price's contract? You have stated that you do not want to include prospects. We would consider an established player, instead of prospects, if said player's value, is at least as high as his salary, plus the approximately $50 million of excess cost to us, in relieving you of your ageing pitcher and your obligation to pay his contract.

If Bloom wants to negotiate. the only points worthy of discussion are the exact amount of the excess cost, over value, of Price's contract and exactly which player we would accept from Boston, to be included in the trade. 

[Balta1701]

2 minutes ago, Lillian said:

If I were Hahn, I would tell Bloom the following: We understand that you really want to offload a considerable amount of salary obligations. We agree with your statement that David Price is worth less than the $96 million contract. You concede that it's at leat $36 million dollars more than Price's value. We have consulted various analytics, which assert  that it is closer to $50 million over his value. How much would you value being able to reduce your payroll by $96 million, over the next 3 years? We would be willing to take that entire contract off your hands, but we would need to receive enough value back, in return. Which player, or players can you offer to include in the deal, in order to fairly compensate us for the overpayment on Price's contract? You have stated that you do not want to include prospects. We would consider an established player, instead of prospects, if said player's value, is at least as high as his salary, plus the approximately $50 million of excess cost to us, in relieving you of your ageing pitcher and your obligation to pay his contract.

The given quote makes it sound like if they had a team that would take on Price's full contract but they had to give up players from their system, and they had another team that would take on $60 million of Price's deal without them giving up anything else, they'd take the latter option. Which makes sense, I would prefer to avoid sending out players in their situation also.

[Lillian]

11 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

The given quote makes it sound like if they had a team that would take on Price's full contract but they had to give up players from their system, and they had another team that would take on $60 million of Price's deal without them giving up anything else, they'd take the latter option. Which makes sense, I would prefer to avoid sending out players in their situation also.

I wouldn't take any statement from Boston at face value, with perhaps the one exception of something that represents a concession. The stated "demands" are likely merely posturing. I continue to believe that Bloom's #1 priority is offloading salary obligations. If he can dump $96 million, in one transaction, I think that he might consider that a success. From Hahn's perspective, he may be just as happy to take Price and money, but I suspect Bloom would favor not having to include $60 million, as that does not satisfy his primary objective. I can see why he would suggest that. He may be trying to look less desperate to be offloading salary. That would be a smart negotiating tactic. However, think about it; the whole point of trading Price and the biggest reason Bloom was brought in, was to get the team payroll under control. Adding $60 million to the deal does not go nearly as far toward achieving those objectives.

Edited December 14, 2019 by Lillian

[CWSpalehoseCWS]

I wish the Sox would add a SP from FA. That might help with more leverage, as they don't come across as desperate for pitching then.

[Lillian]

2 minutes ago, CWSpalehoseCWS said:

I wish the Sox would add a SP from FA. That might help with more leverage, as they don't come across as desperate for pitching then.

Good point. If they really think they could use two, sign one now and continue to negotiate with Bloom, for Price.

[Two-Gun Pete]

If I had to guess, the sawx FO is waiting for KW/RH to get desperate and stoopid. 

The sawx had to see how KW/RH stupidly gave away valuable pieces for Shields and Samardzjia, and are waiting to rip off the SOX.

I hate the idea of these imbeciles making a trade, particularly given their rich history of abject failure in this area.

[Lillian]

Indications that Bloom is negotiating, albeit; in public:

Initial offer: Trade Price and his entire contract, for another team's prospects.

First update: Doesn't want to include any other players, but agrees to pay down a part of Price's contract. Still looking for something back from the other team.

Stay tuned for more concessions. ???

4 minutes ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

If I had to guess, the sawx FO is waiting for KW/RH to get desperate and stoopid. 

The sawx had to see how KW/RH stupidly gave away valuable pieces for Shields and Samardzjia, and are waiting to rip off the SOX.

I hate the idea of these imbeciles making a trade, particularly given their rich history of abject failure in this area.

I hadn't thought about that. Good point. Let's hope that they learned their lesson, and they might be well advised to inform Bloom of their acquired wisdom: "We made that mistake, but we won't do it again".

Edited December 14, 2019 by Lillian

[Dick Allen]

Let them see who wants Price at $60 million. I would say no one.Then let them see about $50 million. Getting closer but still no great bargain. Taking money is doing the Sawks a great service, they only net what you take off Price’s contract but also their penalty. Treat him like the injured 34 year old he is.

[Two-Gun Pete]

10 minutes ago, Lillian said:

Indications that Bloom is negotiating, albeit; in public:

 Let's hope that they learned their lesson, and they might be well advised to inform Bloom of their acquired wisdom: "We made that mistake, but we won't do it again".

In what way have those morons shown any ability to learn anything? In what way have they shown a willingness to do things differently? 

What I'm guessing is that they'll undervalue SP contracts, and wonder why they can't get Ryu for 3/$45MM.

Then they'll get desperate, and bail out the sawx while stupidly giving away value. I hope I'm wrong.

Edited December 14, 2019 by Two-Gun Pete

[Dick Allen]

The guy will be 35 in August, has averaged 21 starts a year the last 3 years. There really is no reason to have any interest especially if they aren’t adding a good player and they  expect one back. 

Just move on. Let them be handcuffed. Continuing can only blow up in your face. No need to be Wiley Coyote again.

[wegner]

10 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

The guy will be 35 in August, has averaged 21 starts a year the last 3 years. There really is no reason to have any interest especially if they aren’t adding a good player and they  expect one back. 

Just move on. Let them be handcuffed. Continuing can only blow up in your face. No need to be Wiley Coyote again.

I'm sure Rick monitors this board so let's close this thread as a hint to take his chair to another table ?

[Perfect Vision]

24 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

Let them see who wants Price at $60 million. I would say no one.Then let them see about $50 million. Getting closer but still no great bargain. Taking money is doing the Sawks a great service, they only net what you take off Price’s contract but also their penalty. Treat him like the injured 34 year old he is.

I don't think that's necessarily true.  I actually think most of the teams in on Bumgarner (seeking $100 mil), Keuchel (likely 4/80) and Ryu (3-4/70) would prefer Price at 3/60.  Which of course complicates things, because if true than Boston can seek prospects in return since there would be multiple suitors for him.  I think the fact that Boston is not only willing to pay part of Price's salary, but would prefer to do so rather than send a valuable piece over with Price, hurts the Sox's chances of landing him.

[Polar Bear]

Don't have to to read up...anything new come out about this in the last day or 2? 

[Dick Allen]

6 minutes ago, Perfect Vision said:

I don't think that's necessarily true.  I actually think most of the teams in on Bumgarner (seeking $100 mil), Keuchel (likely 4/80) and Ryu (3-4/70) would prefer Price at 3/60.  Which of course complicates things, because if true than Boston can seek prospects in return since there would be multiple suitors for him.  I think the fact that Boston is not only willing to pay part of Price's salary, but would prefer to do so rather than send a valuable piece over with Price, hurts the Sox's chances of landing him.

I think if those guys were getting what you suggest, they would be signed right now. Some things are obvious. And one of them is Price isn’t worth anywhere near $60 million anymore. Let alone sending talent away. I don’t think Hahn would give up Madrigal or Vaughn for Price even if Boston ate 80% of his contract. 

Banking on a soon to be 35 year old often injured pitcher when you don’t have to is not very smart. And it isn’t like his wrist was his only issue.

[MeanJoeCrede]

Price has posted 6.2 fWAR in the last 3 seasons, valued at $49.8 million, while being paid $91 million.

Rick Porcello, who is three years younger, just signed a 1 yr/ $10 million contract after posting the exact same 6.2 fWAR in the last 3 seasons.

And you guys have really just spent 28 pages discussing whether taking on $60 million of his remaining contract might be ok? Even with Ben Nintendo attached, this whole trade proposal is completely, utterly asinine! 

[caulfield12]

26 minutes ago, MeanJoeCrede said:

Price has posted 6.2 fWAR in the last 3 seasons, valued at $49.8 million, while being paid $91 million.

Rick Porcello, who is three years younger, just signed a 1 yr/ $10 million contract after posting the exact same 6.2 fWAR in the last 3 seasons.

And you guys have really just spent 28 pages discussing whether taking on $60 million of his remaining contract might be ok? Even with Ben Nintendo attached, this whole trade proposal is completely, utterly asinine! 

Not if Benintendi is a 3-4.5 fWAR player instead of 2.

[EloyJenkins]

4 hours ago, MeanJoeCrede said:

Price has posted 6.2 fWAR in the last 3 seasons, valued at $49.8 million, while being paid $91 million.

Rick Porcello, who is three years younger, just signed a 1 yr/ $10 million contract after posting the exact same 6.2 fWAR in the last 3 seasons.

And you guys have really just spent 28 pages discussing whether taking on $60 million of his remaining contract might be ok? Even with Ben Nintendo attached, this whole trade proposal is completely, utterly asinine! 

He was injured a decent amount. Healthy he would easily cover 3/60

[caulfield12]

What are Price’s velocity readings the last 2-3 years?   He’s a lot like a Rodon, not nearly as effective sitting in the low 90’s.