Time to rebuild the rebuild?

[Colinski]

I get the sentiment here. Essentially after this season Yoan and Gio have the same control as Eaton, Quin and Sale. The team was mediocre so we rebuilt. Surely if this team is also mediocre we could consider doing the same.

 

EXCEPT!!!!!

the off season isn’t over yet, we might still get some pieces and we can contend. Further more the value of these players are NOT AT their peak value as they have only done it for one season. We would likely get more if we traded next season after they repeat the magic. So given your premise, there is no reason to do this, especially not now. 

[EloyJenkins]

Hard LOCK on this. Wheeler's wife chose location and the stupid money that went to Cole and Strasburg was out of sanities reach. They still have 2+ months to get pitching and the position players have a chance to be an elite group. I get it, people are impatient, but this thought is just silly. 

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

2 minutes ago, Colinski said:

I get the sentiment here. Essentially after this season Yoan and Gio have the same control as Eaton, Quin and Sale. The team was mediocre so we rebuilt. Surely if this team is also mediocre we could consider doing the same.

 

EXCEPT!!!!!

the off season isn’t over yet, we might still get some pieces and we can contend. Further more the value of these players are NOT AT their peak value as they have only done it for one season. We would likely get more if we traded next season after they repeat the magic. So given your premise, there is no reason to do this, especially not now. 

If not now, then sometime within the next 12 months assuming 2020 is another lost season. I agree that Moncada and Giolito’s value COULD be higher next winter but it also COULD just as easily be lower (injury, regression, one less year of control/first arb season).

[steveno89]

52 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

It’s highly unlikely the WS are a legitimate contender in 2020 based on how this offseason has transpired. It’s also become apparent that the timelines of the first wave of prospects, specifically Moncada and Giolito, do not align particularly well with the next wave of prospects and long term pieces like Eloy and Timmy, especially if 2020 is another lost season.

I’m sure the fans would crucify them for this so they won’t do it BUT I’d strongly consider trading Moncada and Giolito right now while they are at peak value. If someone like Lindor can potentially fetch May and Lux from the Dodgers, what would a guy like Moncada return in his final season of pre-arb? The demand for 3b around the league is huge right now (partly why the Rockies said they would listen on Arenado). Same with Giolito (goes without saying that demand for high end starting pitcher is through the roof). Why not target high end, MLB ready prospects for those two so that they better align with the forthcoming promotions of Lubo, Madrigal, and Vaughn?

Prospects I would target in trades:

May, Lux, Gray (Dodgers)

Adell, Marsh (Angels)

Gore, Patino, Baez (Padres)

Pache, Wright, Waters (Braves)

Hell no. Just no.

The Sox are headed in the right direction despite Grandal being the only splash so far this offseason. Kopech/Robert/Madrigal will be up getting their feet wet at the MLB level in 2020, and we depending on how the rest of the offseason shakes out we could be a .500 team, perhaps even better. 

Giolito and Moncada are key pieces the we need to contend and are not getting traded. Perpetual rebuilding will not get you anywhere, eventually you have to put all of your chips in and go for it. 

[HeGone7]

5 minutes ago, mqr said:

They're going to be in the hunt for the division. Idk why people aren't seeing that the Twins have just as big a pitching problem as we do and the Indians are about to dump their best guys. They probably won't win it, but they're going to hang around. 

Who cares about competing for the division in 20’? This rebuild afforded you the opportunity to build a powerhouse. A team that consistently hits 95+ wins. That required signing some big name players. The Cubs tried to do that failed with their signings but Theo still understood the importance of it. The Sox didn’t even make it that far yet bc they physically cannot sign anyone (but they did prove my point by trying for Machado). The Yankees accomplished this on the fly. They have a great core of youth mixed with many high-priced stars. We’ll see what the results of that are in short order.

 

Sox fans, for whatever reason (maybe it’s that we’re exhausted and overly eager to do something) really think the guys from the farm and some mediocre players filling holes will be good enough. Yeah, for 85-88 wins. Which may be enough for our division but my god you people need to snap out of it. It’s not about what we have in our young controllable guys - it’s about what we COULD HAVE / SHOULD HAVE paired with those guys from the cap space created by doing the rebuild. That is the point.

If you cannot comprehend that we all want to see success from the team, and specifically this “core” then you’re not only hopeless, you’re blinded by desperation. That core is only as good as their weakest links. Filling voids with mediocrity, simply to please your fan driven urge to TRY and take advantage of a weak division is not only short-sighted, it’s borderline stupid.

The purpose of the rebuild was to get as many great players as possible that had yet to become great (right??? that’s what prospects are and especially the one’s we netted). We’ve lucked out, in that, it’s looking pretty good. So far anyway. Why would you hinder the team’s long-term potential, or the peak that this core can have, by straddling our guys with mediocre talent. Platoon players. Aging catchers. Etc. It’s beyond ineptitude. It’s asinine and demonstrates a complete lack of understanding for ceilings. Our ceiling could be huge. Now it’s less. At the moment, it’s quite literally the difference between Moncada at 3B and Mazara in RF or Moncada in RF and Rendon, for example, at 3B. You guys honestly want the former?

Lets say we make the playoffs (which will be tougher than people think) and then, there you are, bottom of the 9th and up comes Nomar Flipping Mazara. When it could’ve been Machado, Rendon, etc. You people really want that possibility to exist? You’d rather have that then a potential 100 win team during our peak?

The whole point of this rebuild was to get the good, young, CHEAP assets that would allow the Sox to do what we’ve been told for 20years that they couldn’t...sign the big time players to pair with them. This is how you execute a rebuild. And if it means you overpay for a guy, you overpay. That is the luxury you have afforded yourselves. More importantly, for those not mathematically inclined. You can front load a guy who you have concerns about as he ages. That’s actually the best way to do it. Their salary is absorbed while the young guys are cheapest and that salary declines as the other rises. This is not rocket science gentlemen, this is business.

If all this rebuild was was to net good young players and then we’re going to trot out bums with those guys, or worse, expect them all to not only pan out but do so immediately AND be good enough to win a WS, you’re all sadly mistaking. It doesn’t take much time to look at what we have vs the teams that are already better (and adding more to the mix - ie NYY/Cole) and see that we haven’t separated ourselves. At all. Several teams have just as many potential stars as we do, some of which are even better. It puts us back where we have been so many times. Very good/great players scattered amongst guys who aren’t very good. But you’re all so excited to see this come together you’re losing sight of the big picture.

Now in saying all this (and coming out of message board read-only retirement to do so) I think it’s premature to shop either. I don’t think the logic is wrong, in that, they’re ready now and we’re quasi-competitive (potentially) this season and next (without a shocking trade/Betts signing). People need to take into account learning curves and failure rates. Especially with the SP and guys like Vaughn. Advanced bat or not, Vlad Jr has an 80 hit tool and struggled last season. So even if those guys reach their ceilings along the way, it may not be overnight and thus, the OP isn’t far off. I just don’t think it’s now, barring offers that far exceed the very good ones he laid out. Those should be considered at any time, for any team. All of this is before we factor in that the Sox are demonstrating, once again, that many of these guys will only see one contract here (should they live up to their hype) because we simply cannot afford them all and have no interest in signing big contracts.

I’m with you all. I’m excited for the future but I am incredibly shocked and disappointed in the full opportunity we’re missing out on. The Sox knew this a year ago when going to for Harper/Machado. Not all the sudden this isn’t a necessity or a smart move? Nah, I’m not buying it. They are an arrogant bunch. The Machado circus proves that much. They didn’t expect that and they figured they learned their lesson would offer max for Wheeler. He spurned them. They didn’t expect it. Now they’re scrambling & dealing prospects away prematurely to their own plans. We, collectively, need to understand this and continue to apply whatever minimal pressure they can feel from a fan base to insure they push for Betts & co. If we hit our true window in 21’ and this is all we have, we may make it there one day but you guys will be severely disappointed in the results overall. 

Idk about you guys but I didn’t support this rebuild so we can “catch fire” like 05’ and play the other years like a slightly better version of 01-04’. I supported it bc the expectation was we’d be dominant. That is what the ceiling could be. That is what they’re wasting. That’s why the OP wants to move 2 very good guys for 8+ more good guys that are 1-2 years away. It’s not wrong, but it may be premature.

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

Just now, steveno89 said:

Hell no. Just no.

The Sox are headed in the right direction despite Grandal being the only splash so far this offseason. Kopech/Robert/Madrigal will be up getting their feet wet at the MLB level in 2020, and we depending on how the rest of the offseason shakes out we could be a .500 team, perhaps even better. 

Giolito and Moncada are key pieces the we need to contend and are not getting traded. Perpetual rebuilding will not get you anywhere, eventually you have to put all of your chips in and go for it. 

That right there is what prompted this entire premise. When are they going to put all their chips in? Because they sure as hell haven’t done it yet. If they are going to operate under similar constraints as small market teams like the Indians and A’s, then they need to start thinking outside the box like those teams.

[Quin]

Y'all wildin'.

[Colinski]

6 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

If not now, then sometime within the next 12 months assuming 2020 is another lost season. I agree that Moncada and Giolito’s value COULD be higher next winter but it also COULD just as easily be lower (injury, regression, one less year of control/first arb season).

You are essentially looking to have a whole team of players wIth 6 years of control. The problem then is they all hit free agency at once and you are left with  nothing. A good rebuild comes in waves of talent and you re-sign the first guys to his free agency if the team is worth investing in to extend the window.. again this still may happen. 

 

You are not massively wrong with the idea, you are just AT LEAST 12 Months to early, id say much longer. I don’t want a perpetual rebuild. 

[chitownsportsfan]

Yoan Moncada is 80% of the reason I watch this shit team.   Come on.

[Bad Hombre]

40 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

See that’s the thing. They could easily win the division again this year if they kept everyone byt yet they are looking to retool by trading their best player and a top 10 player in MLB.

Lindor is a free agent after next year, whereas Yoan and Giolito are free agents after 2023. Big difference. Plus I don’t know if you’re getting a huge haul for Gio after just 1 good season. 
 

If these players continue to build on last season’s success, but we suffer through another 70 win season without any more additions this off season, then your idea may not be so crazy. 

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

3 minutes ago, Colinski said:

You are essentially looking to have a whole team of players wIth 6 years of control. The problem then is they all hit free agency at once and you are left with  nothing. A good rebuild comes in waves of talent and you re-sign the first guys to his free agency if the team is worth investing in to extend the window.. again this still may happen. 

 

You are not massively wrong with the idea, you are just AT LEAST 12 Months to early, id say much longer. I don’t want a perpetual rebuild. 

It’s what the Cubs did. I like it better than losing a player like Moncada or Giolito to free agency just as the rebuild is coming to form.

[Steve9347]

1 hour ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

It’s highly unlikely the WS are a legitimate contender in 2020 based on how this offseason has transpired. It’s also become apparent that the timelines of the first wave of prospects, specifically Moncada and Giolito, do not align particularly well with the next wave of prospects and long term pieces like Eloy and Timmy, especially if 2020 is another lost season.

I’m sure the fans would crucify them for this so they won’t do it BUT I’d strongly consider trading Moncada and Giolito right now while they are at peak value. If someone like Lindor can potentially fetch May and Lux from the Dodgers, what would a guy like Moncada return in his final season of pre-arb? The demand for 3b around the league is huge right now (partly why the Rockies said they would listen on Arenado). Same with Giolito (goes without saying that demand for high end starting pitcher is through the roof). Why not target high end, MLB ready prospects for those two so that they better align with the forthcoming promotions of Lubo, Madrigal, and Vaughn?

Prospects I would target in trades:

May, Lux, Gray (Dodgers)

Adell, Marsh (Angels)

Gore, Patino, Baez (Padres)

Pache, Wright, Waters (Braves)

Ok, so the White Sox are finally coming out of the haze led by a 24 year old 3B who just put up a 141 OPS+ and a 24 year old budding ace who just put up a 134 ERA+ with an 11.6 SO9, and you want to trade these men?

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

2 minutes ago, Bad Hombre said:

Lindor is a free agent after next year, whereas Yoan and Giolito are free agents after 2023. Big difference. Plus I don’t know if you’re getting a huge haul for Gio after just 1 good season. 
 

If these players continue to build on last season’s success, but we suffer through another 70 win season without any more additions this off season, then your idea may not be so crazy. 

The fact that Moncada is controllable for four more seasons is a big part of what makes him so valuable in a trade. Yet, if they Dodgers offered me Lux, May, and Gray for Moncada, I’d be awfully hard pressed to decline that type of package.

[southsideirish71]

1 hour ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

It’s highly unlikely the WS are a legitimate contender in 2020 based on how this offseason has transpired. It’s also become apparent that the timelines of the first wave of prospects, specifically Moncada and Giolito, do not align particularly well with the next wave of prospects and long term pieces like Eloy and Timmy, especially if 2020 is another lost season.

I’m sure the fans would crucify them for this so they won’t do it BUT I’d strongly consider trading Moncada and Giolito right now while they are at peak value. If someone like Lindor can potentially fetch May and Lux from the Dodgers, what would a guy like Moncada return in his final season of pre-arb? The demand for 3b around the league is huge right now (partly why the Rockies said they would listen on Arenado). Same with Giolito (goes without saying that demand for high end starting pitcher is through the roof). Why not target high end, MLB ready prospects for those two so that they better align with the forthcoming promotions of Lubo, Madrigal, and Vaughn?

Prospects I would target in trades:

May, Lux, Gray (Dodgers)

Adell, Marsh (Angels)

Gore, Patino, Baez (Padres)

Pache, Wright, Waters (Braves)

If they "rebuild the rebuild" I am out. The rebuild was sold as young controllable talent and then we would add the missing pieces via FA or trade.  If they cant pull the trigger due to price now then the future costs are really going to spook them.  You are never going to build completely on your own.  All teams need something.  

[ChiSox59]

4 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

It’s what the Cubs did. I like it better than losing a player like Moncada or Giolito to free agency just as the rebuild is coming to form.

There are 4 seasons between now and Moncada/Gio becoming FAs.  If the Sox aren't "coming into form" until 2022, we never had a chance to begin with.  

[southsideirish71]

1 minute ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

The fact that Moncada is controllable for four more seasons is a big part of what makes him so valuable in a trade. Yet, if they Dodgers offered me Lux, May, and Gray for Moncada, I’d be awfully hard pressed to decline that type of package.



If your plan is to destroy the fan base, go ahead.  Trade Moncada and Gio.    I endorsed the rebuild on the idea that it would eventually end.  I could go and support the Pirates or Marlins if I wanted to see the endless roster shuffle.  

[Kyyle23]

If you think this rebuild has already failed, do you honestly want this FO trading away your best players again?  You really gotta think about that.  
 

honestly I think this is a knee jerk response to the last week of winter meetings.   I'm not saying your feelings are misplaced but I don't think it is completely thought through 

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

5 minutes ago, Kyyle23 said:

If you think this rebuild has already failed, do you honestly want this FO trading away your best players again?  You really gotta think about that.  
 

honestly I think this is a knee jerk response to the last week of winter meetings.   I'm not saying your feelings are misplaced but I don't think it is completely thought through 

Yes, because it’s the one thing they’ve shown they can do really well.

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

10 minutes ago, southsideirish71 said:

If your plan is to destroy the fan base, go ahead.  Trade Moncada and Gio.    I endorsed the rebuild on the idea that it would eventually end.  I could go and support the Pirates or Marlins if I wanted to see the endless roster shuffle.  

Define “destroy”. Haven’t they already done that to a large degree?

[soxfan49]

1 hour ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

And yet organizations like the Indians and Rays make these types of trades all the time and barely miss a beat...

Who have the Indians or Rays traded that are under 25 and this good?

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

12 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

There are 4 seasons between now and Moncada/Gio becoming FAs.  If the Sox aren't "coming into form" until 2022, we never had a chance to begin with.  

There’s a very real possibility they miss the playoffs in 2020 and 2021. Then you’re in the position the Indians are in currently. Ride it out with your guys and possibly let Moncada and Gio walk for nothing except a comp pick after 2023 or trade them to get some value in return. Either way, you’ve burned another 1-2 years of the next wave of prospects and TA, Eloy, etc in the process.

[EloyJenkins]

So if Sox sign Ryu or Keuchel in THIS week...can this thread at least be locked?

[NotHahn]

58 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

There’s one thing we know Hahn excels in - trading young MLB stars for high end prospects. Why not utilize his biggest strength in this instance and then turn it over to Dombrowski lol

Your looking for a significant over pay to even consider something like that. Maybe 3 top 100 prospects +. I would say that Moncada would be pretty close to untouchable. Its so unlikely that its not worth discussing. 

[daggins]

1 hour ago, hi8is said:

No.

 

[Orlando]

Why would we rebuild again when we have Covey under team control