Expectations

[he gone.]

1 hour ago, mmmmmbeeer said:

Reading through the board, I can't help but get the feeling that many people actually expected the Sox to compete for a ring this season.  Be it the idea of overpaying for starting pitching, dropping a record contract on a player not fitting a position of need, comfort with trading young prospects, or just getting upset that Hahn hasn't "spent the money".  

2020 should have never been the season we Sox fans expected a truly competitive team.   We're going to be several weeks without Madrigal and/or Robert, and then likely have to wait for them to adjust to ML pitching.  A month or several months without Rodon and Kopech.  Cease and Lopez need to find consistency.  Collins is still learning how to hit in the majors.  

This was a 72 win team last season.  I don't blame Hahn or Jerry for not going all in this offseason.  We may be competitive for a WC slot this season or, best case scenario, everyone performs as we hope, win the division, and get shellacked by the Yankees or Astros in the playoffs.  This would be the case even if we'd gotten Wheeler or Rendon.  

If Hahn fills RF with a Mazara platoon partner and can get a decent stopgap SP, I'd call this offseason a success.   Give us this season to win more games, let guys mature, let Kopech and Rodon get healthy and back in form, and see what happens.  Next offseason is when we go all in, imo.  

 

YES YES YES YES YES!!!

This is why it's good most of the fan base aren't the GM. We'd be screwed. I've been saying this for like 2-3 years now. 

Here are my comments from January of 2019 after we missed out on Machado:

But it was always going to be that way.. we had no minor league system. Even if those 4-5 guys were absolute studs, you'd need to do a lot of supplementing with FA because the minor leagues was such a desert. You're not building this for 2019 or 2020. You're building this to hopefully be the Cardinals or any other really successful organization that it's a constant revolving door of home grown talent, young minor league talent coming up and your occasional big splash FA. The kind where you can let a Pujols leave and not miss a beat. Or where you can make an offer to David Price or Stanton, etc. etc. 

1- Look to the future. Look to 2021 or 2022 when the Sox are hopefully in the ALCS. Adam Engel won't be on that team. Palka 98% sure won't be on that team. Nicky Delmonico won't be on that team (maybe even this one), Leury Garcia, Cordell, Tilson .... none of those guys will be on the team or even really have more than a 1-2% chance of being on that team. Leury is your best shot, but there will be a cheaper, younger option who can fulfill his role. So all of those who are making the point that a 33 year old is stealing somebody's time needs to can it. 2018 was their opportunity to make noise. We gave these young guys a whole year at the MLB level.. a shot that they'd only get with a 60 win team. We owe these AAA guys nothing.

5- Whether you believe it or not, this team, if it can sign Machado is positioning itself for a 2017 Twins like opportunity. If Eloy does as expected, if Moncada takes a few steps forward? Add in Machado and maybe a guy like Ervin Santana? All of a sudden I think you maybe are talking a 80-87 win team. That's all we can really ask for over the next two years anyways... a Band-Aid team on 1-2 year deals that hopefully you can have a chance with if all goes right. The real fun begins in 2021 anyways.

August of 2018:

The time isn't even right to bring up Eloy or Kopech according to Hahn, so why in 3 months would it be the right time to spend $300mm? As much as I'd love it, JR isn't signing off on $300mm contracts when your rotation is still 2-3 years from coming together and being competitive. Same with Madrigal, Robert, Collins, etc. Those guys are all 2020 guys. Arenado would be our first real POSSIBLE FA signing.

In regards to Moncada when he was batting awful in 2018: I mean, for all the people complaining, just read this stat over and over. If he changes his approach just a little he's going to take off. As much as we'd all love him to be Juan Soto or some rookie that comes to the majors and just rakes and never looks back he is likely to follow the path of Javy Baez and Avi Garcia a bit more. We should be thankful he is learning on the 2017/2018 Sox and isn't a Madrigal or Robert that won't have as much of a leash to learn on the fly on the 2020-2021 Sox. (Also one of the reasons the BoSox traded him - didn't have the luxury of letting him learn)

I sometimes think that SoxTalk has memory of a fly. All of a sudden we like Palka and Engel? And dump Garcia? Last year it was let Engel rot and Garcia should be handed an extension... oh and that Nicky Delmonico can be a part of the future and that Davidson is a joke. Then in the beginning of the year it was Davidson can be the DH of the future!! He gets hurt for a few weeks and all of a sudden it's play Palka over Davidson when Nicky and Avi return....

How about this? Really none of these guys are much better or worse than each other and put them on the Nationals or Cubs or Astros and they'd all be riding the bench or in AAA. If we want to be a team that really competes for it all each year I don't think many of these guys are part of it. Hopefully you find 2-3 players from this disaster of a 2-3 years of baseball.

Also found this gem in regards to win totals in 2019 from January. 

I'd say this number is probably a bit high right now, but not far off. You're talking 12 more wins than last year ... with a solid bullpen you may be looking at 4-5 wins alone right there.  Any progression from Giolito and Moncada would help a ton... someone on base (Jay) in front of a Abreu should help and add in Eloy...

I think at this exact moment, figuring maybe some veteran 1 year gap SP and maybe an OF (basically assuming no machado or harper) I'd say... 70-72 is my guess. You also have to remember the division is awwwfullll. Indians are worse, Royals are worse, Tigers are worse... and that's like 70 games of your schedule.

 

You can check my track record - I've been mostly consistent on my takes. Even for this year - I said a realistic offseason would be to add Grandal, Smoak/EE, bring back a Nova type and that I'd check in on a Rich Hill/Alex Wood type. That's a fine offseason. There's no need to push down the gas a year too early. You sign stop gap 1-2 year guys & next offseason is when you can truly assess your team and needs. That's when you spend. Just revel in the fact that this team has finally turned the corner and will be an 80-83 win team, but most importantly FUN to watch. We are going to have some really fun stretches this year where we win 6-8 games in a row and we'll see glimpses of the future. We'll also probably have some maddening losses and terrible stretches. That's what young teams do. They learn to win. And that's what this yaer is all about. It wouldn't mattter if we signed Rendon and Cole BOTH this year... we wouldn't be winning a world series. We're going to have young, inconsistent guys learning. And that's fine. In a perfect world maybe 2020 couldve happened, but that was assuming that Kopech and Moncada and Burger and Lopez and Giolito and Eloy, etc. etc. etc. ALL didn't go through any struggles and turned into All-Stars. ANNNNDD. just like how every guy i just listed had issues .... you're going to see Robert and Madrigal and Cease and all the other young prospects go through struggles too. That's why 2020 was never really going to happen. Be happy - not spending and locking into long contracts this offseason is a GOOD thing. 

 

Drops Mic. And you can go reference this post in 2020-21 offseason if you want. If the Sox don't spend or trade then? Then this franchise will have killed my last remaining support. 

[Chicago White Sox]

2 minutes ago, BrianAnderson said:

YES YES YES YES YES!!!

This is why it's good most of the fan base aren't the GM. We'd be screwed. I've been saying this for like 2-3 years now. 

Here are my comments from January of 2019 after we missed out on Machado:

But it was always going to be that way.. we had no minor league system. Even if those 4-5 guys were absolute studs, you'd need to do a lot of supplementing with FA because the minor leagues was such a desert. You're not building this for 2019 or 2020. You're building this to hopefully be the Cardinals or any other really successful organization that it's a constant revolving door of home grown talent, young minor league talent coming up and your occasional big splash FA. The kind where you can let a Pujols leave and not miss a beat. Or where you can make an offer to David Price or Stanton, etc. etc. 

1- Look to the future. Look to 2021 or 2022 when the Sox are hopefully in the ALCS. Adam Engel won't be on that team. Palka 98% sure won't be on that team. Nicky Delmonico won't be on that team (maybe even this one), Leury Garcia, Cordell, Tilson .... none of those guys will be on the team or even really have more than a 1-2% chance of being on that team. Leury is your best shot, but there will be a cheaper, younger option who can fulfill his role. So all of those who are making the point that a 33 year old is stealing somebody's time needs to can it. 2018 was their opportunity to make noise. We gave these young guys a whole year at the MLB level.. a shot that they'd only get with a 60 win team. We owe these AAA guys nothing.

5- Whether you believe it or not, this team, if it can sign Machado is positioning itself for a 2017 Twins like opportunity. If Eloy does as expected, if Moncada takes a few steps forward? Add in Machado and maybe a guy like Ervin Santana? All of a sudden I think you maybe are talking a 80-87 win team. That's all we can really ask for over the next two years anyways... a Band-Aid team on 1-2 year deals that hopefully you can have a chance with if all goes right. The real fun begins in 2021 anyways.

August of 2018:

The time isn't even right to bring up Eloy or Kopech according to Hahn, so why in 3 months would it be the right time to spend $300mm? As much as I'd love it, JR isn't signing off on $300mm contracts when your rotation is still 2-3 years from coming together and being competitive. Same with Madrigal, Robert, Collins, etc. Those guys are all 2020 guys. Arenado would be our first real POSSIBLE FA signing.

In regards to Moncada when he was batting awful in 2018: I mean, for all the people complaining, just read this stat over and over. If he changes his approach just a little he's going to take off. As much as we'd all love him to be Juan Soto or some rookie that comes to the majors and just rakes and never looks back he is likely to follow the path of Javy Baez and Avi Garcia a bit more. We should be thankful he is learning on the 2017/2018 Sox and isn't a Madrigal or Robert that won't have as much of a leash to learn on the fly on the 2020-2021 Sox. (Also one of the reasons the BoSox traded him - didn't have the luxury of letting him learn)

I sometimes think that SoxTalk has memory of a fly. All of a sudden we like Palka and Engel? And dump Garcia? Last year it was let Engel rot and Garcia should be handed an extension... oh and that Nicky Delmonico can be a part of the future and that Davidson is a joke. Then in the beginning of the year it was Davidson can be the DH of the future!! He gets hurt for a few weeks and all of a sudden it's play Palka over Davidson when Nicky and Avi return....

How about this? Really none of these guys are much better or worse than each other and put them on the Nationals or Cubs or Astros and they'd all be riding the bench or in AAA. If we want to be a team that really competes for it all each year I don't think many of these guys are part of it. Hopefully you find 2-3 players from this disaster of a 2-3 years of baseball.

Also found this gem in regards to win totals in 2019 from January. 

I'd say this number is probably a bit high right now, but not far off. You're talking 12 more wins than last year ... with a solid bullpen you may be looking at 4-5 wins alone right there.  Any progression from Giolito and Moncada would help a ton... someone on base (Jay) in front of a Abreu should help and add in Eloy...

I think at this exact moment, figuring maybe some veteran 1 year gap SP and maybe an OF (basically assuming no machado or harper) I'd say... 70-72 is my guess. You also have to remember the division is awwwfullll. Indians are worse, Royals are worse, Tigers are worse... and that's like 70 games of your schedule.

 

You can check my track record - I've been mostly consistent on my takes. Even for this year - I said a realistic offseason would be to add Grandal, Smoak/EE, bring back a Nova type and that I'd check in on a Rich Hill/Alex Wood type. That's a fine offseason. There's no need to push down the gas a year too early. You sign stop gap 1-2 year guys & next offseason is when you can truly assess your team and needs. That's when you spend. Just revel in the fact that this team has finally turned the corner and will be an 80-83 win team, but most importantly FUN to watch. We are going to have some really fun stretches this year where we win 6-8 games in a row and we'll see glimpses of the future. We'll also probably have some maddening losses and terrible stretches. That's what young teams do. They learn to win. And that's what this yaer is all about. It wouldn't mattter if we signed Rendon and Cole BOTH this year... we wouldn't be winning a world series. We're going to have young, inconsistent guys learning. And that's fine. In a perfect world maybe 2020 couldve happened, but that was assuming that Kopech and Moncada and Burger and Lopez and Giolito and Eloy, etc. etc. etc. ALL didn't go through any struggles and turned into All-Stars. ANNNNDD. just like how every guy i just listed had issues .... you're going to see Robert and Madrigal and Cease and all the other young prospects go through struggles too. That's why 2020 was never really going to happen. Be happy - not spending and locking into long contracts this offseason is a GOOD thing. 

 

Drops Mic. And you can go reference this post in 2020-21 offseason if you want. If the Sox don't spend or trade then? Then this franchise will have killed my last remaining support. 

I’m glad your plan is a two or three year plan!

[he gone.]

Last January when I was called "absurd" saying 2022 is the first World Series contender - not just playoffs, but world series. 

 

Absurd? I guess the first thing is what is your definition of "competing". Because mine is actually having a shot at winning the World Series. So in my own definition I don't count the Braves as a serious competitor this past year. Sure they won the division but they were never making it through the gauntlet of the playoffs as champs. Likewise, the Astros are a perfect example. In 2015 they won 86 games and went as a WC.. nice season? yes. But it was laying groundwork. They never really had a shot at winnign it all. 2016 they won 84 games and didn't make the playoffs. Obviously 2017 worked out great.

 

So, maybe by your definition my thoughts are absurd, but my thoughts are more or less this:

2019: hopefully a great, healthy year in the minors, players move up to AAA. Maybe a Cease or others hits the majors

2020: Your Madrigals, Dunnings, and Kopechs all take their licks in the MLB. Hot/cold season. Up and down.

2021: Your second wave of prospects --- Rutherford, Adolfos, Burgers, etc. get their seasoning while your Kopech, Cease, Dunnings, start really coming into form.

2022: Everything finally comes together.

 

So yes, I standby 2022 being the first REAL year that a Sox team can compete seriously against teams like the Yankees and Red Sox and Astros currently are putting out.

That's assuming no injuries and prospects all getting better... let's not forget we thought Moncada would be an All-Star and Giolito could be a nice 2-3 starter. Hansen was supposed to be a 2-3 starter too... now he's what? And Fulmer, etc. etc. things don't go that smoothly very often. Robert is probably more likely to be Jorge Soler than Mookie Betts. So yes, 2022. I guess I'm absurd

[Chicago White Sox]

1 minute ago, BrianAnderson said:

Last January when I was called "absurd" saying 2022 is the first World Series contender - not just playoffs, but world series. 

 

Absurd? I guess the first thing is what is your definition of "competing". Because mine is actually having a shot at winning the World Series. So in my own definition I don't count the Braves as a serious competitor this past year. Sure they won the division but they were never making it through the gauntlet of the playoffs as champs. Likewise, the Astros are a perfect example. In 2015 they won 86 games and went as a WC.. nice season? yes. But it was laying groundwork. They never really had a shot at winnign it all. 2016 they won 84 games and didn't make the playoffs. Obviously 2017 worked out great.

 

So, maybe by your definition my thoughts are absurd, but my thoughts are more or less this:

2019: hopefully a great, healthy year in the minors, players move up to AAA. Maybe a Cease or others hits the majors

2020: Your Madrigals, Dunnings, and Kopechs all take their licks in the MLB. Hot/cold season. Up and down.

2021: Your second wave of prospects --- Rutherford, Adolfos, Burgers, etc. get their seasoning while your Kopech, Cease, Dunnings, start really coming into form.

2022: Everything finally comes together.

 

So yes, I standby 2022 being the first REAL year that a Sox team can compete seriously against teams like the Yankees and Red Sox and Astros currently are putting out.

That's assuming no injuries and prospects all getting better... let's not forget we thought Moncada would be an All-Star and Giolito could be a nice 2-3 starter. Hansen was supposed to be a 2-3 starter too... now he's what? And Fulmer, etc. etc. things don't go that smoothly very often. Robert is probably more likely to be Jorge Soler than Mookie Betts. So yes, 2022. I guess I'm absurd

Holy shit you are talking about a two year window?!  And who is this second wave of prospects you refer to?  I pray to the baseball gods that Hahn has a much aggressive in place than you do or god help us all...

[HOFHurt35]

My expectations were they were going to get a bat and get a SP and hope for the Core take another step forward

 

[Wisebri224]

9 minutes ago, BrianAnderson said:

YES YES YES YES YES!!!

This is why it's good most of the fan base aren't the GM. We'd be screwed. I've been saying this for like 2-3 years now. 

Here are my comments from January of 2019 after we missed out on Machado:

But it was always going to be that way.. we had no minor league system. Even if those 4-5 guys were absolute studs, you'd need to do a lot of supplementing with FA because the minor leagues was such a desert. You're not building this for 2019 or 2020. You're building this to hopefully be the Cardinals or any other really successful organization that it's a constant revolving door of home grown talent, young minor league talent coming up and your occasional big splash FA. The kind where you can let a Pujols leave and not miss a beat. Or where you can make an offer to David Price or Stanton, etc. etc. 

1- Look to the future. Look to 2021 or 2022 when the Sox are hopefully in the ALCS. Adam Engel won't be on that team. Palka 98% sure won't be on that team. Nicky Delmonico won't be on that team (maybe even this one), Leury Garcia, Cordell, Tilson .... none of those guys will be on the team or even really have more than a 1-2% chance of being on that team. Leury is your best shot, but there will be a cheaper, younger option who can fulfill his role. So all of those who are making the point that a 33 year old is stealing somebody's time needs to can it. 2018 was their opportunity to make noise. We gave these young guys a whole year at the MLB level.. a shot that they'd only get with a 60 win team. We owe these AAA guys nothing.

5- Whether you believe it or not, this team, if it can sign Machado is positioning itself for a 2017 Twins like opportunity. If Eloy does as expected, if Moncada takes a few steps forward? Add in Machado and maybe a guy like Ervin Santana? All of a sudden I think you maybe are talking a 80-87 win team. That's all we can really ask for over the next two years anyways... a Band-Aid team on 1-2 year deals that hopefully you can have a chance with if all goes right. The real fun begins in 2021 anyways.

August of 2018:

The time isn't even right to bring up Eloy or Kopech according to Hahn, so why in 3 months would it be the right time to spend $300mm? As much as I'd love it, JR isn't signing off on $300mm contracts when your rotation is still 2-3 years from coming together and being competitive. Same with Madrigal, Robert, Collins, etc. Those guys are all 2020 guys. Arenado would be our first real POSSIBLE FA signing.

In regards to Moncada when he was batting awful in 2018: I mean, for all the people complaining, just read this stat over and over. If he changes his approach just a little he's going to take off. As much as we'd all love him to be Juan Soto or some rookie that comes to the majors and just rakes and never looks back he is likely to follow the path of Javy Baez and Avi Garcia a bit more. We should be thankful he is learning on the 2017/2018 Sox and isn't a Madrigal or Robert that won't have as much of a leash to learn on the fly on the 2020-2021 Sox. (Also one of the reasons the BoSox traded him - didn't have the luxury of letting him learn)

I sometimes think that SoxTalk has memory of a fly. All of a sudden we like Palka and Engel? And dump Garcia? Last year it was let Engel rot and Garcia should be handed an extension... oh and that Nicky Delmonico can be a part of the future and that Davidson is a joke. Then in the beginning of the year it was Davidson can be the DH of the future!! He gets hurt for a few weeks and all of a sudden it's play Palka over Davidson when Nicky and Avi return....

How about this? Really none of these guys are much better or worse than each other and put them on the Nationals or Cubs or Astros and they'd all be riding the bench or in AAA. If we want to be a team that really competes for it all each year I don't think many of these guys are part of it. Hopefully you find 2-3 players from this disaster of a 2-3 years of baseball.

Also found this gem in regards to win totals in 2019 from January. 

I'd say this number is probably a bit high right now, but not far off. You're talking 12 more wins than last year ... with a solid bullpen you may be looking at 4-5 wins alone right there.  Any progression from Giolito and Moncada would help a ton... someone on base (Jay) in front of a Abreu should help and add in Eloy...

I think at this exact moment, figuring maybe some veteran 1 year gap SP and maybe an OF (basically assuming no machado or harper) I'd say... 70-72 is my guess. You also have to remember the division is awwwfullll. Indians are worse, Royals are worse, Tigers are worse... and that's like 70 games of your schedule.

 

You can check my track record - I've been mostly consistent on my takes. Even for this year - I said a realistic offseason would be to add Grandal, Smoak/EE, bring back a Nova type and that I'd check in on a Rich Hill/Alex Wood type. That's a fine offseason. There's no need to push down the gas a year too early. You sign stop gap 1-2 year guys & next offseason is when you can truly assess your team and needs. That's when you spend. Just revel in the fact that this team has finally turned the corner and will be an 80-83 win team, but most importantly FUN to watch. We are going to have some really fun stretches this year where we win 6-8 games in a row and we'll see glimpses of the future. We'll also probably have some maddening losses and terrible stretches. That's what young teams do. They learn to win. And that's what this yaer is all about. It wouldn't mattter if we signed Rendon and Cole BOTH this year... we wouldn't be winning a world series. We're going to have young, inconsistent guys learning. And that's fine. In a perfect world maybe 2020 couldve happened, but that was assuming that Kopech and Moncada and Burger and Lopez and Giolito and Eloy, etc. etc. etc. ALL didn't go through any struggles and turned into All-Stars. ANNNNDD. just like how every guy i just listed had issues .... you're going to see Robert and Madrigal and Cease and all the other young prospects go through struggles too. That's why 2020 was never really going to happen. Be happy - not spending and locking into long contracts this offseason is a GOOD thing. 

 

Drops Mic. And you can go reference this post in 2020-21 offseason if you want. If the Sox don't spend or trade then? Then this franchise will have killed my last remaining support. 

Love everything about this except the very last point.  What is going to be available for this big spend next offseason?  No pitching :(.  We going to be in on Mookie or Springer.......??????  Or is the big spend next winter Joc if Mazara doesn't work.  You have to look to the future forecasting what will happen then, not hoping that all of these young kids go then try to add.  Give em a little help now:) that's all I would say

[chetkincaid]

28 minutes ago, NotHahn said:

Sox won 72 games last year. Wild Card Teams won 97 and 96 games. You think the Sox are going to improve 25 games? Have you seen this pitching staff or lack thereof? 

I'm pretty sure we top out at 82 wins next year. Won't really be in the Wild Card discussion.

[he gone.]

8 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Holy shit you are talking about a two year window?!  And who is this second wave of prospects you refer to?  I pray to the baseball gods that Hahn has a much aggressive in place than you do or god help us all...

Nope, not a two year window. A St. Louis Cardinals or Rays type window (or maybe even the Indians if they do this correctly). A rolling window.  You pick and choose if you're extending the likes of a Moncada or Kopech or whoever your new internal upcoming FA is. We don't have to be a franchise that continuously builds and tears down. We are in a big market, and should look towards the Cardinals as our model. Let a Pujols go and keep rolling. Make informed decisions and spend big when the opportunity presents itself. Always have a seat at the table (haha - that was on purpose). Sox fans are so caught up in a window. Open the DOOR to your baseball mind. This should be a 10-20 year type thing. As the Moncada's or Kopechs or whoever roll off, you decide, based on internal minor league talent if it's worth it to give the big money or to fill from within. When you're a top 3-4 team in any given year, then you load up on a few nice FA signings or make a trade for an impact player. When you don't, you compete to the best of your ability, but don't push the pedal down. Sustained success. 

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

2 hours ago, ChiSox59 said:

And Madrigal and Robert for 130 games or so.  And 15-20 starts from Kopech.  And a full season from Cease.  

These things help.  I don't think its outrageous to expect this team be be around .500 even if they just add two meh vets on 1 year deals for the rotation.  

Don't forget Eloy could improve by a bunch. I'm expecting it. He won't be at Yoan's WAR level but he could be the better hitter.

[Chicago White Sox]

1 minute ago, BrianAnderson said:

Nope, not a two year window. A St. Louis Cardinals or Rays type window (or maybe even the Indians if they do this correctly). A rolling window.  You pick and choose if you're extending the likes of a Moncada or Kopech or whoever your new internal upcoming FA is. We don't have to be a franchise that continuously builds and tears down. We are in a big market, and should look towards the Cardinals as our model. Let a Pujols go and keep rolling. Make informed decisions and spend big when the opportunity presents itself. Always have a seat at the table (haha - that was on purpose). Sox fans are so caught up in a window. Open the DOOR to your baseball mind. This should be a 10-20 year type thing. As the Moncada's or Kopechs or whoever roll off, you decide, based on internal minor league talent if it's worth it to give the big money or to fill from within. When you're a top 3-4 team in any given year, then you load up on a few nice FA signings or make a trade for an impact player. When you don't, you compete to the best of your ability, but don't push the pedal down. Sustained success. 

You do realize we will have a bottom five farm system by mid season once Robert, Madrigal, Kopech lose their eligibility. We have completely failed to supplement the core rebuild guys we acquired via trade outside of top five overall draft picks and Robert.  You cited a second wave of prospects coming to save the day that does not exist.  This idea of sustained success is a huge long shot at the moment and therefore we should be doing everything in our power to maximize the four years left we have of Moncada & Giolito.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

21 minutes ago, BrianAnderson said:

Nope, not a two year window. A St. Louis Cardinals or Rays type window (or maybe even the Indians if they do this correctly). A rolling window.  You pick and choose if you're extending the likes of a Moncada or Kopech or whoever your new internal upcoming FA is. We don't have to be a franchise that continuously builds and tears down. We are in a big market, and should look towards the Cardinals as our model. Let a Pujols go and keep rolling. Make informed decisions and spend big when the opportunity presents itself. Always have a seat at the table (haha - that was on purpose). Sox fans are so caught up in a window. Open the DOOR to your baseball mind. This should be a 10-20 year type thing. As the Moncada's or Kopechs or whoever roll off, you decide, based on internal minor league talent if it's worth it to give the big money or to fill from within. When you're a top 3-4 team in any given year, then you load up on a few nice FA signings or make a trade for an impact player. When you don't, you compete to the best of your ability, but don't push the pedal down. Sustained success. 

I generally like your posts but maybe you keep forgetting that other teams actually use international FA to pump more young blood into their franchises and have been doing that for a long time.The Sox threw $50M at Robert. If they had been playing that game for as long as some of the other teams we might have come up with more than that. Oh shit I forgot we did. We came up with Tatis and he was snatched up by a smarter organization from us.

Also the Cardinals have a great fan base and continuously have great player development. The Sox couldn't find a single diamond in the rough or create one from their 2nd round and higher draft picks   You were right about your predictions but expecting a long run of success ain't happening.

Edited December 13, 2019 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside
typos

[bachy]

The market was flush with quality pitching this offseason. I expected a premiere starting pitcher.

The White Sox had arguably the worst starting rotation of any team that was bidding for pitching, and they couldn't land one of the big three. What's more disgusting is it seems as if they didn't even bother to engage with Boras about Cole or Strasburg. If Wheeler was their guy, then they needed to overpay for him. I don't care what he says about being closer to NJ, money can change that and the Sox did not separate themselves far enough away from the pack to get it done. If they can't sign any of the next top SP available, this may wind up being a worse offseason than last. Because at least last year it was a foregone conclusion the team wouldn't be competing for anything in 2019. The expectations have shifted for 2020, as was stated by Rick Hahn at the outset of the offseason. Failure to convert on, at the very least, two quality starting pitchers will make this offseason nothing less than an unmitigated disaster. 

The further we go along into this, it just seems to be the same BS as we've seen previously which is very disheartening.

[Big Hurtin]

 

[he gone.]

22 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

You do realize we will have a bottom five farm system by mid season once Robert, Madrigal, Kopech lose their eligibility. We have completely failed to supplement the core rebuild guys we acquired via trade outside of top five overall draft picks and Robert.  You cited a second wave of prospects coming to save the day that does not exist.  This idea of sustained success is a huge long shot at the moment and therefore we should be doing everything in our power to maximize the four years left we have of Moncada & Giolito.

You do realize that 4 years ago we had NONE of these guys right? If the Sox do the job right, 4 years from now we'll have a new wave of guys. Also if we did this job right you have a large number of holes filled, and you should be retaining SOME of them. So you aren't starting from scratch like this time having to fill almost a whole roster. 

me thinks you may just be a negative person in life. Have a little faith. Not too much since its JR and Hahn, but some. Things will be good on a go forward basis with the chance to be great. 

[he gone.]

23 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

I generally like your posts but maybe you keep forgetting that other teams actually use international FA to pump more young blood into their franchises and have been doing that for a long time.The Sox threw $50M at Robert. If they had been playing that game for as long as some of the other teams we might have come up with more than that. Oh shit I forgot we did. We came up with Tatis and he was snatched up by a smarter organization from us.

Also the Cardinals have a great fan base and continuously have great player development. The Sox couldn't find a single diamond in the rough or create one from their 2nd round and higher draft picks   You were right about your predictions but expecting a long run of success ain't happening.

I would tend to agree with you, the odds are against us. It's unlikely with JR and Hahn and KW. But we won't have many holes to fill for a while which SHOULD theoretically give the opportunity to continue to build the minors. . We should theoretically be plugged in LF, CF, SS, 2B for a while. So up the middle looks good. Moncada has a bunch of years left. You have a Vaughn who should at least bat wise be a high floor guy. Pitching is always a crap shoot and that's really goign to be the difference between us being able to keep this train moving full steam ahead once its on the tracks. 

 

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

26 minutes ago, BrianAnderson said:

I would tend to agree with you, the odds are against us. It's unlikely with JR and Hahn and KW. But we won't have many holes to fill for a while which SHOULD theoretically give the opportunity to continue to build the minors. . We should theoretically be plugged in LF, CF, SS, 2B for a while. So up the middle looks good. Moncada has a bunch of years left. You have a Vaughn who should at least bat wise be a high floor guy. Pitching is always a crap shoot and that's really goign to be the difference between us being able to keep this train moving full steam ahead once its on the tracks. 

 

I think the vast majority of the fan base knows that its the pitching that will either make or break the Sox, You see a lot of of posts about adding a RF and a DH stiil and add bad fielding OF's many posters wanted to make the playoffs this year unrealistically .

It hurt to lose Wheeler because even if not expecting the playoff he was a big part of the next step and while many were skeptical of Bum, Ryu and Keuchel now we are begging for one of them and chances are with Boras and preferences for the NL or California being likely maybe we only have a real shot at one of them. and have to convert. Next year's starting pitcher crop is uninspiring . Maybe Kopech or Cease or Lopez steps up. Maybe some prospects step up

The window is going to be small and close quickly . Maybe we can do a Royals and get lucky but until we start investing more money into IFA and player development using sports science the Sox are going to be the same old Sox they have been for over 100 years. Fans will be praying for a savior owner and it hasn't happened yet in the long terrible history of this franchise.

You cannot fail or not participate in so many areas that involve young players like every type of free agency and in drafting and development and expect anything lasting.

Edited December 13, 2019 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

[caulfield12]

I’m starting to think that they simply need to overpay for pitching for one reason only.

Just to get out of the Central.  War of attrition.

Bumgarner, Ryu and Keuchel are no longer playoff aces...but they should be good enough to take out the Twins and Indians.

It’s no longer about being better than Houston or NYY.   It’s just maximizing playoff appearances and going back to the ‘ol KW philosophy of adding at every trade deadline (somehow) when they’re competitive.

Certainly, you shouldn’t be letting one of those key remaining pieces go to the Twins.

Maybe they can exert their financial flexibility in the June/July trade market...but, for God’s sake, we need at least one reliable pitcher to keep us in the race so we can at least be in a position to be competitive for the division or WC in the second half.

Or do something really creative like signing 3-5 of those scrap heap pitchers, as suggested recently.  Do whatever you have to do to win the division, knowing the WS is ultimate (for now) highly improbable without running a $170-185 million payroll.

At least with the playoff appearance and increased expectations that go along with it, you can start pushing the payroll up year by year to where it needs to be, realistically.

And, at the very least, they should not be completely rebuilding the bullpen again going into 2021.  This offseason shows you can’t keep waiting and waiting to do some of the heavy lifting.

Edited December 13, 2019 by caulfield12

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

"Or do something really creative like signing 3-5 of those scrap heap pitchers"

I give you a like because that was me who suggested that 

[GradMc]

1 hour ago, Chicago White Sox said:

I’m glad your plan is a two or three year plan!

The entire Reinsdorf experience has been a perpetual goal-post moving series of 3 to 5 year "rebuilds".  

[caulfield12]

11 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

"Or do something really creative like signing 3-5 of those scrap heap pitchers"

I give you a like because that was me who suggested that 

Add Encarnacion, then you can argue with those “Pitching Posse“ members (patent pending)...well, you don’t have to face the White Sox offense AND you can beat up on the Tigers and Royals to pad your stats and increase your FA asking prices for next offseason.  

Chicago Summers!

Heck, the Indians’ lineup isn’t going to be that hard to beat without Lindor, right?  

Edited December 13, 2019 by caulfield12

[Chicago White Sox]

1 hour ago, BrianAnderson said:

You do realize that 4 years ago we had NONE of these guys right? If the Sox do the job right, 4 years from now we'll have a new wave of guys. Also if we did this job right you have a large number of holes filled, and you should be retaining SOME of them. So you aren't starting from scratch like this time having to fill almost a whole roster. 

me thinks you may just be a negative person in life. Have a little faith. Not too much since its JR and Hahn, but some. Things will be good on a go forward basis with the chance to be great. 

We had none of these guys four years ago because we traded away our entire controllable core, were able to land Robert before the LatAm rule changes, and completely tanked for a couple seasons that allowed us draft two top five picks.  Unless you want to blow shit up again there will not be a big second wave of prospects anytime soon.  There will be a handful of guys that might help, but most of the talent will be in place by June.  The window to be great is 2020 to 2023 and we need to take advantage of that because our margin for error is slim as fuck given our lack of depth  I’m not suggesting giving Bumgarner $100M+, but we can’t punt two years while the young guys develop as you suggest.

And for the record, I am not a negative person at all, just someone incredibly frustrated by what appears to be a lack of vision, creative thinking, & boldness  from our front office & ownership group.

[poppysox]

2 hours ago, oneofthemikes said:

My expectations for this season were never World Series related. I just wanted to compete for the Central. Meaningful baseball in September would be a refreshing change of pace. 

My thought was Division in 2020 and truly compete for it all in 2021-2024 (give or take).

T

 

2 hours ago, wegner said:

You'll ruin the rebuild, Kid!!  HO HO HO

This is where I thought we would be.  Compete for the Division in 2020 and shoot for the moon in 2021.  We will do it but it's frustratingly slow.  Still need two serviceable starters and two good relievers.

[Moan4Yoan]

2 hours ago, poppysox said:

T

 

This is where I thought we would be.  Compete for the Division in 2020 and shoot for the moon in 2021.  We will do it but it's frustratingly slow.  Still need two serviceable starters and two good relievers.

Two “serviceable” starters ain’t gonna cut it.

[poppysox]

57 minutes ago, Moan4Yoan said:

Two “serviceable” starters ain’t gonna cut it.

If we hold the opposition to 4 runs or less we will be in most games with our offense.

[Moan4Yoan]

Just now, poppysox said:

If we hold the opposition to 4 runs or less we will be in most games with our offense.

Good luck in the postseason with that type of talent, if you even make it.