Why has Hahn failed?

[Sarava]

41 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

The Twins won 101 games.......The Astros won 107. Not a huge difference. 

 All that really matters is the top team in the division. You have to beat that number. 

  

That they had 6 more wins, while not having 1/3 of their schedule against the Tigers, Royals and White Sox shows there's a gigantic difference at play here.

[hi8is]

He didn’t get the Gucci handbag for his wife’s birthday when it was on sale.

[hi8is]

Dog had to pee — didn’t let it out all night. Carpet stained.

[hi8is]

While trying to plant a pepper tree in his backyard, he didn’t dig the hole wide enough. Eventually the tree got choked and withered.

[hi8is]

He simply didn’t win the first hour of the day, obviously.

[hi8is]

Dog remained neglected, pooping on his slippers this time.

[Flash]

I don't think you can quibble about '19 FA signings. I actually believe Mazara will pleasantly surprise and Grandal was target #1. Wheeler would have changed everyone's outlook but it looks as though we gave an honest and aggressive effort. My problem with Hahn/FO is the impression of a lack of overall vision. If we had a vision for what we need to look like as world champions, we could map back and make measured moves toward that vision. I think Preller and San Diego are good examples. They went into the meetings with a clear idea of what they needed to accomplish and, either through trade or FA, got their guy(s) and improved their roster. Hahns moves seem more random and a bit opportunistic. He should have had multiple players targeted (a la Pomeranz) and moved aggressively. Now, having been outflanked by more nimble GMs, we are left to overpay for a few square pegs or hope our young arms are up to the task.

[SCCWS]

1 hour ago, Flash said:

I don't think you can quibble about '19 FA signings. I actually believe Mazara will pleasantly surprise and Grandal was target #1. Wheeler would have changed everyone's outlook but it looks as though we gave an honest and aggressive effort. My problem with Hahn/FO is the impression of a lack of overall vision. If we had a vision for what we need to look like as world champions, we could map back and make measured moves toward that vision. I think Preller and San Diego are good examples. They went into the meetings with a clear idea of what they needed to accomplish and, either through trade or FA, got their guy(s) and improved their roster. Hahns moves seem more random and a bit opportunistic. He should have had multiple players targeted (a la Pomeranz) and moved aggressively. Now, having been outflanked by more nimble GMs, we are left to overpay for a few square pegs or hope our young arms are up to the task.

I followed you up to Pomeranz.  I assume you meant him as a bullpen piece since his starter days since 2017 have been pretty bad. 

[Jack Parkman]

This rebuild, as it stands, revolves around Giolito, Kopech and Cease. 

The Sox need at least one to develop into a bonafide ace. 

Even if Giolito maintains his performance from 2019 and never gets any better or worse, he's still a strong #2. At that point, the onus falls on Kopech and Cease. 

Edited December 14, 2019 by Jack Parkman

[Flash]

9 minutes ago, SCCWS said:

I followed you up to Pomeranz.  I assume you meant him as a bullpen piece since his starter days since 2017 have been pretty bad. 

Pomeranz struck me as perfect swing guy. Can go multiple innings or close and maybe occasionally provide a start if needed...exactly what SD signed him to do and why I felt he was a perfect fit for Sox. 

[kitekrazy]

14 hours ago, Nardiwashere said:

People have legitimately lost their minds.  It’s mid-December.  They signed the best catcher on the market.  Then they offered their top SP choice 125 million dollars.  If they did that during the winter meetings instead of the 2 weeks leading up to the meeting, people would be happy.

Sox fans have turned into a bunch of whiny, panicky, wimps.  Get a hold of yourselves.  

The fanbase is in hysterics.  And why? Because they signed an average player who may or may not be the 7th hitter when all is said and done?  

 

 This was the biggest shocker to me and they didn't waste time.  It was so un WHite Sox.

[Dick Allen]

14 hours ago, Nardiwashere said:

People have legitimately lost their minds.  It’s mid-December.  They signed the best catcher on the market.  Then they offered their top SP choice 125 million dollars.  If they did that during the winter meetings instead of the 2 weeks leading up to the meeting, people would be happy.

Sox fans have turned into a bunch of whiny, panicky, wimps.  Get a hold of yourselves.  

The fanbase is in hysterics.  And why? Because they signed an average player who may or may not be the 7th hitter when all is said and done?  

 

Or, hey the Sox signed Grandal and came in second for their pitching target, rejoice. Why? The White Sox are a mid market team playing in a major market. They are the reason they are a mid market team. That is how they operate. I have defended JR a lot, and have written this a lot recently, it’s time for JR to sell. Sell it to someone  who will refuse to be a mid market team. Will make fans expect winning. Expect signing the best players, and make them relevant again. When is the last time the Cubs lost out on a guy even after offering the most money because he wanted to play by his future in laws.? 

We have accepted mediocrity long enough. It is time to stop operating like a mom and pop shop, and act like a major league team playing in a world class city that players love coming to. If JR cannot operate like that, his toy should be taken away.

Edited December 14, 2019 by Dick Allen

[Moan4Yoan]

Since when do teams get credit for offering a contract to a player but failing to sign them?

[JoshPR]

5 hours ago, NWINFan said:

Hahn is not a failure yet even with this disappointing off season so far.  What has been demonstrated is that the White Sox will not act like a large market team and so Hahn will have to find other ways to build a winning team. Players like Cole and Rendon are not going to come here.

Even if fans will be patient with another losing or non-contending team in 2020, the rebuild excuse is a hand that can't be played anymore.  Winning in the low Seventies is not going to cut it any more. I don't want to hear empty more promises.

What ticked me off was not the fact that the Sox didn't sign someone like Cole. What is infuriating about Hahn is that he talks big. He should do his job and let his actions speak for themselves.  I want more progress and less talk. It is time to build, not rebuild. Now, how is he going to do that? Let him prove how successful he can be.

Offer them the money ill guarandamntee they'll come here

[JoshPR]

1 hour ago, Dick Allen said:

Or, hey the Sox signed Grandal and came in second for their pitching target, rejoice. Why? The White Sox are a mid market team playing in a major market. They are the reason they are a mid market team. That is how they operate. I have defended JR a lot, and have written this a lot recently, it’s time for JR to sell. Sell it to someone  who will refuse to be a mid market team. Will make fans expect winning. Expect signing the best players, and make them relevant again. When is the last time the Cubs lost out on a guy even after offering the most money because he wanted to play by his future in laws.? 

We have accepted mediocrity long enough. It is time to stop operating like a mom and pop shop, and act like a major league team playing in a world class city that players love coming to. If JR cannot operate like that, his toy should be taken away.

Best goddamn post ever

[NWINFan]

1 hour ago, Dick Allen said:

Or, hey the Sox signed Grandal and came in second for their pitching target, rejoice. Why? The White Sox are a mid market team playing in a major market. They are the reason they are a mid market team. That is how they operate. I have defended JR a lot, and have written this a lot recently, it’s time for JR to sell. Sell it to someone  who will refuse to be a mid market team. Will make fans expect winning. Expect signing the best players, and make them relevant again. When is the last time the Cubs lost out on a guy even after offering the most money because he wanted to play by his future in laws.? 

We have accepted mediocrity long enough. It is time to stop operating like a mom and pop shop, and act like a major league team playing in a world class city that players love coming to. If JR cannot operate like that, his toy should be taken away.

Great post. My sentiments exactly. 

[ChiSox59]

1 hour ago, Dick Allen said:

Or, hey the Sox signed Grandal and came in second for their pitching target, rejoice. Why? The White Sox are a mid market team playing in a major market. They are the reason they are a mid market team. That is how they operate. I have defended JR a lot, and have written this a lot recently, it’s time for JR to sell. Sell it to someone  who will refuse to be a mid market team. Will make fans expect winning. Expect signing the best players, and make them relevant again. When is the last time the Cubs lost out on a guy even after offering the most money because he wanted to play by his future in laws.? 

We have accepted mediocrity long enough. It is time to stop operating like a mom and pop shop, and act like a major league team playing in a world class city that players love coming to. If JR cannot operate like that, his toy should be taken away.

This is a good post, and I definitely agree.  I look forward to the day there is new ownership.  I asked this in another thread the other day and didn't get much of a response.  What is the succession plan when Reinsdorf passes?  Will his family take it over?  Is anyone in his family interested in running it?

48 minutes ago, Moan4Yoan said:

Since when do teams get credit for offering a contract to a player but failing to sign them?

This has been explained to you many times, but I will try again.  You don't get credit for offering the highest contact if the player signs elsewhere.  But it shows the Sox willingness to be aggressive, and perhaps even overpay if the situation is right.  That is a good sign.  Spending big money to sign players who may improve the 2020 team, but will likely impair the 22-25 seasons when this thing is supposed to be at full speed likely isn't the wisest decision for a mid market team like the Sox.  Its frustating in the moment because we all want to watch winning baseball sooner rather than later, but I also respect the patience, because if they blow their load now, that 22-25 window looks a lot less enticing if they don't bat close to 1.000.  

[Moan4Yoan]

11 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

This is a good post, and I definitely agree.  I look forward to the day there is new ownership.  I asked this in another thread the other day and didn't get much of a response.  What is the succession plan when Reinsdorf passes?  Will his family take it over?  Is anyone in his family interested in running it?

This has been explained to you many times, but I will try again.  You don't get credit for offering the highest contact if the player signs elsewhere.  But it shows the Sox willingness to be aggressive, and perhaps even overpay if the situation is right.  That is a good sign.  Spending big money to sign players who may improve the 2020 team, but will likely impair the 22-25 seasons when this thing is supposed to be at full speed likely isn't the wisest decision for a mid market team like the Sox.  Its frustating in the moment because we all want to watch winning baseball sooner rather than later, but I also respect the patience, because if they blow their load now, that 22-25 window looks a lot less enticing if they don't bat close to 1.000.  

So you missed out on Wheeler.  Then sign Bumgarner.

[ChiSox59]

I also think calling Hahn a failure at this point is premature.  He literally hit a home run on each of the key trades.  He signed arguably the best prospect in baseball.  Our core is young, cheap, controlled long term, and incredibly talented.  The Sox overall have struggled to full in around those moves, but they also haven't really stuck their neck out that much on those moves either.  Hahn had some bad slipups pre-rebuild that we're all aware of, but I think he's done a pretty good job since Sale and Eaton trades.  

I think we were all hopeful when this started that the Sox would be entering their juggernaut stage by 2020, but that always required pretty much everything to go right.  A lot has gone right.  Injuries have hurt.  We probably lost a year and half with the Kopech injury, and certainly injuries to Rodon and Dunning didn't help either.  Getting close to nothing out of 1st rounders Burger, Burdi and to a lesser extent Collins to this point sucks.  Adolfo unable to stay healthy delayed, and perhaps even completely derailed, what very well could have be our OD RF in 2020.  I am hopeful for a healthier year for our farm system in 2020, and hopefully a couple of those guys return to be key pieces of the core.  

The lack of activity at the WM has everyone on the ledge, and while the premium long term assets are gone, I do expect the Sox to fill in the gaps with interesting players.  We'll likely be looking at a roster that will need alot to go right in 2020 to be in the mix for the ALC come next August, but it will without a doubt be the most exciting Sox team we've watched since at least 2012.  Step off the ledge, friends.  Everything is going to be OK. 

Edited December 14, 2019 by ChiSox59

[TaylorStSox]

3 minutes ago, Moan4Yoan said:

So you missed out on Wheeler.  Then sign Bumgarner.

Did Bumgarner sign? 

[ChiSox59]

Just now, Moan4Yoan said:

So you missed out on Wheeler.  Then sign Bumgarner.

Ugh.  Bumgarner is literally the type of signing that I just covered in the post you quoted.  Signing Bumgarner to a 5/$100M deal he will require is going to be thorn in the side of this organization by 2022, right when they're entering the prime with this core.  No one denies he'd vastly improve the club in 2020, but he doesn't really fit the timeline, and the commitment he will require is only going to make things harder on the Sox when they're actually ready.

Not to mention that Bumgarner is a flyball pitcher.  He'd get absolutely torched pitching in Chicago in the summer.  He is not a good fit.  But continue to pound your fist for the Sox to spend dumb money on bad fits.  If they do, you'll be filling threads with negativity about what a terrible signing it was within 24 months.  

[Moan4Yoan]

2 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

Ugh.  Bumgarner is literally the type of signing that I just covered in the post you quoted.  Signing Bumgarner to a 5/$100M deal he will require is going to be thorn in the side of this organization by 2022, right when they're entering the prime with this core.  No one denies he'd vastly improve the club in 2020, but he doesn't really fit the timeline, and the commitment he will require is only going to make things harder on the Sox when they're actually ready.

Not to mention that Bumgarner is a flyball pitcher.  He'd get absolutely torched pitching in Chicago in the summer.  He is not a good fit.  But continue to pound your fist for the Sox to spend dumb money on bad fits.  If they do, you'll be filling threads with negativity about what a terrible signing it was within 24 months.  

Which FA starter do you want?

[ChiSox59]

Just now, Moan4Yoan said:

Which FA starter do you want?

Ryu on a 3 year deal.  Keuchel on a 3 year deal would be OK as well.  

Really don't want to go to 4 years on either .  While I prefer Ryu overall, I'd feel more comfortable going 4 on Keuchel because he's more durable and I feel he may be a bit cheaper.  But I'd consider the 4th years for both depending on the AAV.  

I'd be fine with pretty much any of Walker, Wood, McHugh, Gio, or Smyly for the last spot.  Likely in that order.  

[Jack Parkman]

3 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

Ryu on a 3 year deal.  Keuchel on a 3 year deal would be OK as well.  

Really don't want to go to 4 years on either .  While I prefer Ryu overall, I'd feel more comfortable going 4 on Keuchel because he's more durable and I feel he may be a bit cheaper.  But I'd consider the 4th years for both depending on the AAV.  

I'd be fine with pretty much any of Walker, Wood, McHugh, Gio, or Smyly for the last spot.  Likely in that order.  

Ryu is the best pitcher, but I'd have a hard time going more than 2 years for him. His durability is a huge question. 

I don't understand the sentiment to rush to sign a player that's probably going to pitch 90-120 innings per season. 

Edited December 14, 2019 by Jack Parkman

[ChiSox59]

1 minute ago, Jack Parkman said:

Ryu is the best pitcher, but I'd have a hard time going more than 2 years for him. His durability is a huge question. 

Yeah, you hate Ryu.  You've mentioned that.  He's definitely not perfect - I too would prefer a 2 year deal - but that isn't going to happen.