EloyJenkins Posted December 21, 2019 Share Posted December 21, 2019 15 hours ago, thxfrthmmrs said: I wouldn’t mind taking Ian Desmond’s remaining $23M contract along with Gray for Rutherford and someone like Flores. Gray is the get obviously with higher upside than Ryu or Keuchel. Desmond has been a negative WAR player each of the last 3 years so Rox would be trilled to get rid of that contract and free up an OF spot for Sam Hilliard. But he’s also incredible effective against lefties, posting 131 and 149 OPS+ against them over the last 2 years. He could be easily step in as the platoon partner for Collins and Mazara. super expensive platoon. He is owed 15 mil next season 8 mil the following and a 2 million buyout...so he is really 25 mil for 2 years and that is just too much money imo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EloyJenkins Posted December 21, 2019 Share Posted December 21, 2019 15 hours ago, thxfrthmmrs said: I wouldn’t mind taking Ian Desmond’s remaining $23M contract along with Gray for Rutherford and someone like Flores. Gray is the get obviously with higher upside than Ryu or Keuchel. Desmond has been a negative WAR player each of the last 3 years so Rox would be trilled to get rid of that contract and free up an OF spot for Sam Hilliard. But he’s also incredible effective against lefties, posting 131 and 149 OPS+ against them over the last 2 years. He could be easily step in as the platoon partner for Collins and Mazara. super expensive platoon. He is owed 15 mil next season 8 mil the following and a 2 million buyout...so he is really 25 mil for 2 years and that is just too much money imo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted December 21, 2019 Share Posted December 21, 2019 15 hours ago, thxfrthmmrs said: I wouldn’t mind taking Ian Desmond’s remaining $23M contract along with Gray for Rutherford and someone like Flores. Gray is the get obviously with higher upside than Ryu or Keuchel. Desmond has been a negative WAR player each of the last 3 years so Rox would be trilled to get rid of that contract and free up an OF spot for Sam Hilliard. But he’s also incredible effective against lefties, posting 131 and 149 OPS+ against them over the last 2 years. He could be easily step in as the platoon partner for Collins and Mazara. I couldn't see the Rockies even giving this a thought. It would be like if Jose Abreu actually played as bad as Ron thinks in 2020, and next winter the Sox gave Giolito to any team that took Joses contract. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thxfrthmmrs Posted December 21, 2019 Share Posted December 21, 2019 2 hours ago, EloyJenkins said: super expensive platoon. He is owed 15 mil next season 8 mil the following and a 2 million buyout...so he is really 25 mil for 2 years and that is just too much money imo. You’re getting Jon Gray for 2 arb years, which is likely $15M total, which is what the deal is about. You can pay Keuchel something like 4/$72M or have Gray, who has much more upside, plus an effective platoon for 2$/40M. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thxfrthmmrs Posted December 21, 2019 Share Posted December 21, 2019 2 hours ago, Dick Allen said: I couldn't see the Rockies even giving this a thought. It would be like if Jose Abreu actually played as bad as Ron thinks in 2020, and next winter the Sox gave Giolito to any team that took Joses contract. Yea, getting rid of one of the worst contracts in baseball so they could possibly retain their two best players while freeing up roster spot for guys who are ready to play and getting value for a guy who is ready to walk to in two years. Yea I couldn’t even see them giving this a thought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted December 21, 2019 Share Posted December 21, 2019 (edited) 21 minutes ago, thxfrthmmrs said: Yea, getting rid of one of the worst contracts in baseball so they could possibly retain their two best players while freeing up roster spot for guys who are ready to play and getting value for a guy who is ready to walk to in two years. Yea I couldn’t even see them giving this a thought. Yes. They could trade Gray for a package of prospects that would more than cover Desmond’s deal. It doesn’t make sense to give up Jon Gray for Desmond’s contract. There are many more options that actually increase the teams talent level. While the contract is horrid there is only $25 million to go. Gray is worth way more than that. Edited December 21, 2019 by Dick Allen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thxfrthmmrs Posted December 21, 2019 Share Posted December 21, 2019 22 minutes ago, Dick Allen said: Yes. They could trade Gray for a package of prospects that would more than cover Desmond’s deal. It doesn’t make sense to give up Jon Gray for Desmond’s contract. There are many more options that actually increase the teams talent level. While the contract is horrid there is only $25 million to go. Gray is worth way more than that. Really? Because Gray plus Desmond consistently averaged about 2.5 fWAR each of the past 3 years, and they’re shredding $20M a year over the next two. That is consistent the theoretical value of $/WAR. Also for the record, teams paid anywhere from $4-6M/WAR on starting pitching this off season. I am not even counting back prospects going back in the deal. So you can keep telling me how that’s not a deal Rox would even consider. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted December 21, 2019 Share Posted December 21, 2019 (edited) 14 minutes ago, thxfrthmmrs said: Really? Because Gray plus Desmond consistently averaged about 2.5 fWAR each of the past 3 years, and they’re shredding $20M a year over the next two. That is consistent the theoretical value of $/WAR. Also for the record, teams paid anywhere from $4-6M/WAR on starting pitching this off season. I am not even counting back prospects going back in the deal. So you can keep telling me how that’s not a deal Rox would even consider. They wouldn’t. He was a 2.9 WAR pitcher last year, Steamer projects 3.5 in 2020. You shouldn’t factor in Desmond’s negative WAR. It is irrelevant. If they released him his WAR becomes the same as mine or yours, 0.0. If Gray puts up his Steamer number the next 2 years, that is 7 WAR, well worth eating $25 million. Maybe you can site some examples of teams giving up players of Gray’s caliber to eat $25 million over 2 years, but I doubt it. Edited December 21, 2019 by Dick Allen 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thxfrthmmrs Posted December 21, 2019 Share Posted December 21, 2019 10 minutes ago, Dick Allen said: They wouldn’t. He was a 2.9 WAR pitcher last year, Steamer projects 3.5 in 2020. You shouldn’t factor in Desmond’s negative WAR. It is irrelevant. If they released him his WAR becomes the same as mine or yours, 0.0. If Gray puts up his Steamer number the next 2 years, that is 7 WAR, well worth eating $25 million. He’s also making $15M (est. arb) himself, so factor that in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted December 21, 2019 Share Posted December 21, 2019 1 minute ago, thxfrthmmrs said: He’s also making $15M (est. arb) himself, so factor that in. That is still only $40 million. Gray has averaged way more than $20 million of worth per season the last 4 years. it would never happen. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thxfrthmmrs Posted December 21, 2019 Share Posted December 21, 2019 2 minutes ago, Dick Allen said: That is still only $40 million. Gray has averaged way more than $20 million of worth per season the last 4 years. it would never happen. How much more? $6M? Based on a theoretical figure that teams aren’t actually paying? Also how many free agent dollar does the two prospects worth? Is it a trade Rockies would accept outright? Probably not, but is it something they would counter on? I don’t doubt it. It would not happen because there are other factors in play casual fans are in privy to know, but not for the reasons you gave. Try better Dick Allen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted December 21, 2019 Share Posted December 21, 2019 5 minutes ago, thxfrthmmrs said: How much more? $6M? Based on a theoretical figure that teams aren’t actually paying? Also how many free agent dollar does the two prospects worth? Is it a trade Rockies would accept outright? Probably not, but is it something they would counter on? I don’t doubt it. It would not happen because there are other factors in play casual fans are in privy to know, but not for the reasons you gave. Try better Dick Allen. I don’t have to try better, it’s a ridiculous trade. Besides, if Desmond is worth something as a platoon player, why couldn’t the Rockies platoon him? You are talking out of both sides of your mouth. The trade is great for the White Sox because Gray doesn’t make much and has a lot of upside and Desmond would be great in a platoon, but on the other hand, saying it would be great for the Rockies to be out of this $25 million over 2 years for a negative WAR player, so great, Jon Gray is a reasonable price. Jon Gray type players don’t get traded for salary relief. The end. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thxfrthmmrs Posted December 21, 2019 Share Posted December 21, 2019 (edited) Also the Desmond value is very much a factor, teams, especially a low end market team like Rockies, do not bench or waive a guy making the money Desmond does. He will continue to be on the roster and starting over young guys. There aren’t teams lining up to take on Desmond’s contract even if they are trading for Gray. Sox could establish advantage by being one of few teams that would take on his contract because one they could afford it, and two they could find a role for Desmond. By getting rid of his negative WAR contribution and inserting someone like Hilliard or Rodgers (sliding McMahon to LF), they’d easily get positive WAR output from that spot. Addition by subtraction, something not factor in a basic $/WAR calculation. Also say they could trade Gray and get top prospects in return, they’re still in payroll crunch and have to explore trading Nolan. Or they could trade Gray, getting rid of bad contract and keep Nolan, while sacrificing a bit on quality of prospects. One is a better option than the other. Look, Rockies have been listening on Gray already. They could either trade Gray for the best return and not worry about salary or roster spot. However getting rid of Desmond has a lot more value for the Rox than you think. But sure let’s ignore that for the sake of your argument. Edited December 21, 2019 by thxfrthmmrs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thxfrthmmrs Posted December 21, 2019 Share Posted December 21, 2019 (edited) 15 minutes ago, Dick Allen said: I don’t have to try better, it’s a ridiculous trade. Besides, if Desmond is worth something as a platoon player, why couldn’t the Rockies platoon him? You are talking out of both sides of your mouth. The trade is great for the White Sox because Gray doesn’t make much and has a lot of upside and Desmond would be great in a platoon, but on the other hand, saying it would be great for the Rockies to be out of this $25 million over 2 years for a negative WAR player, so great, Jon Gray is a reasonable price. Jon Gray type players don’t get traded for salary relief. The end. Because Rockies don’t have an obvious platoon candidate and Sox have 2 and a DH spot? Also see post above. Re: Bold. But Red Sox are willing to throw in Benintendi to get rid Price’s contract so they could keep Betts? You’re forcing a narrative that isn’t there. So keep trying harder. Edited December 21, 2019 by thxfrthmmrs 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moan4Yoan Posted December 21, 2019 Share Posted December 21, 2019 (edited) 39 minutes ago, thxfrthmmrs said: Because Rockies don’t have an obvious platoon candidate and Sox have 2 and a DH spot? Also see post above. Re: Bold. But Red Sox are willing to throw in Benintendi to get rid Price’s contract so they could keep Betts? You’re forcing a narrative that isn’t there. So keep trying harder. You are comparing apples and oranges. Desmond’s $25 million for the next two years is hardly a contract that the Rockies desperately need to dump that they would include a good cheap starter like Gray. Meanwhile, Price is owed $96 million and the Red Sox are in luxury tax hell. The Rockies are not in the same situation. I agree with Dick Allen. This isn’t a realistic trade. Edited December 21, 2019 by Moan4Yoan 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thxfrthmmrs Posted December 21, 2019 Share Posted December 21, 2019 8 minutes ago, Moan4Yoan said: You are comparing apples and oranges. Desmond’s $25 million for the next two years is hardly a contract that the Rockies desperately need to dump that they would include a good cheap starter like Gray. Meanwhile, Price is owed $96 million and the Red Sox are in luxury tax hell. The Rockies are not in the same situation. I agree with Dick Allen. This isn’t a realistic trade. Correction: Red Sox are willing to to include Benintendi so they don't have to throw in like $40M of cash to get rid of Price's contract. Benintendi also has 3 years of team control left vs. 2 for Gray. It may not be apples to apples but idea is the same. Teams are willing to include valuable assets to dump salary depending on their situation. While Rockies are not in luxury tax hell, they're also a smaller market team with a $160M payroll and are at crossroads with their star player. (Their payrolls is continually on the rise each of the last 6 years, lowest was 2013, at $79M.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Sacamano Posted December 21, 2019 Share Posted December 21, 2019 17 minutes ago, thxfrthmmrs said: Correction: Red Sox are willing to to include Benintendi so they don't have to throw in like $40M of cash to get rid of Price's contract. Benintendi also has 3 years of team control left vs. 2 for Gray. It may not be apples to apples but idea is the same. Teams are willing to include valuable assets to dump salary depending on their situation. While Rockies are not in luxury tax hell, they're also a smaller market team with a $160M payroll and are at crossroads with their star player. (Their payrolls is continually on the rise each of the last 6 years, lowest was 2013, at $79M.) Can you confirm this anywhere other than Peter Gammons spewing Madrigal and Vaughn for Price and Benintendi? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted December 22, 2019 Share Posted December 22, 2019 (edited) Here’s the thing. The Rockies have no realistic way to compete without Gray and Marquez, and you can probably add Freeland to the list as well. If you trade Gray, you’re not far from having to dump Arenado, Blackmon and Marquez and just completely completely blow things up...eat the contracts for Desmond and Wade Davis, etc. At the very least, they’ll see where things stand mid season. Their fans deserve that much for being so loyal to that franchise over the many lean years. Edited December 22, 2019 by caulfield12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thxfrthmmrs Posted December 22, 2019 Share Posted December 22, 2019 1 hour ago, soxfan2014 said: Can you confirm this anywhere other than Peter Gammons spewing Madrigal and Vaughn for Price and Benintendi? No one has confirmed since Gammons mentioned it. But Rosenthal has also speculated this scenario before winter meeting, that was to shred contracts for Price or Eovaldi. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Chappas Posted December 23, 2019 Share Posted December 23, 2019 With Loogy's becoming less of a things now, Gio can become quite valuable in that role as he can get RHH out as well. Same with Rodon if they are looking to ease him back in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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