oldsox Posted January 20, 2020 Share Posted January 20, 2020 15 hours ago, skooch said: JOOC, how does one distinguish between "hangover effect" and "he's actually not that good" away from Coors? I've been watching Colorado baseball ever since they got a team, and there is a hangover when they go on the road, and it's not just with Arenado. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted January 20, 2020 Share Posted January 20, 2020 The last big name player I recall us seeing this discussion about was Matt Holliday. In 2007-2008, right before he was first traded, his home OPS was 100-250 points higher than his road OPS. His numbers dropped a little in the first half while he was in Oakland, then they shot back up when he got to St. Louis. He ended his career in St. Louis with a lower OPS than he had in Colorado by about 50 points, but with a higher OPS+ in St. Louis than he ever had in Colorado (Park adjusted). We don't see true all star hitters coming up in Colorado and leaving often enough to really put together a trend, but Holliday was a better hitter in St. Louis overall than you'd have expected from "Here's what he did on the road while he was on the Rockies". Many players often hit better at home, and "adjusting to not hitting in Colorado" really does seem to be a thing. I guess another recent example of a guy leaving Colorado and continuing to put up really good numbers is DJ Lamahieu, who went nuts with the Yankees last year. I think the overall rule is, if a guy's a really good hitter in Colorado, his numbers are usually slightly worse elsewhere and there might be a transition period, but he remains a really good hitter. I am struggling to think of guys who were "only good hitters in Colorado" in recent years, maybe someone like Tulowitzki but he had other issues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elrockinMT Posted January 20, 2020 Share Posted January 20, 2020 These types of trade deals is what doomed the team to several years of subpar performances. We traded away our good prospects for immediate but short term gratification. We have a pretty solid young team settled at about every position and ready to compete LONG term so let’s not return to the old ways. That is my opinion and I realize others have theirs 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted January 20, 2020 Share Posted January 20, 2020 24 minutes ago, elrockinMT said: These types of trade deals is what doomed the team to several years of subpar performances. We traded away our good prospects for immediate but short term gratification. We have a pretty solid young team settled at about every position and ready to compete LONG term so let’s not return to the old ways. That is my opinion and I realize others have theirs While I don't have any urge to trade for Arenado, one important thing that would be different in this case is that Arenado is actually a bonafide, legitimate star. The trades you're talking about are moves for guys like Jake Peavy when his numbers were already down from his peak in San Diego, Jeff Samardzija when we convinced ourselves he was way better than he actually was, and James Shields after his performance had fallen apart. When trades became available for guys who could actually change a franchise, like Miguel Cabrera, we made attempts at them but were beaten because we didn't have enough talent to made such a deal. The deals that killed the White Sox were paying high prices for middling players, because they didn't understand that they were paying high prices and they didn't understand they were getting back middling players. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Parkman Posted January 20, 2020 Share Posted January 20, 2020 42 minutes ago, Balta1701 said: While I don't have any urge to trade for Arenado, one important thing that would be different in this case is that Arenado is actually a bonafide, legitimate star. The trades you're talking about are moves for guys like Jake Peavy when his numbers were already down from his peak in San Diego, Jeff Samardzija when we convinced ourselves he was way better than he actually was, and James Shields after his performance had fallen apart. When trades became available for guys who could actually change a franchise, like Miguel Cabrera, we made attempts at them but were beaten because we didn't have enough talent to made such a deal. The deals that killed the White Sox were paying high prices for middling players, because they didn't understand that they were paying high prices and they didn't understand they were getting back middling players. One thing that Kenny was great at that Hahn isn't, is internal scouting. The only player that KW traded that ever hurt him was Gio Gonzalez. Rick has traded 1 player that has become a star elsewhere in Marcus Semien, and an uber prospect that looks well on his way in Voldemort. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted January 20, 2020 Share Posted January 20, 2020 1 minute ago, Jack Parkman said: One thing that Kenny was great at that Hahn isn't, is internal scouting. The only player that KW traded that ever hurt him was Gio Gonzalez. Rick has traded 1 player that has become a star elsewhere in Marcus Semien, and an uber prospect that looks well on his way in Voldemort. See I really don't buy this. I think they were both just "Very bad at drafting and developing in general", to the point where they only could find 1-2 good prospects every 10 years. Kenny didn't trade away any prospects who made a major impact after 2003 or so...but aside from Gio, who did he have who made a major impact in those years? McCarthy was ok, Chris Carter wasn't the worst player in the league, but there's basically no one else worth mentioning who came out of that system until 2010 when Sale was drafted. They held onto Gordon Beckham when they should have dealt him, they held onto Chris Sale and that was the right move, they shoulda dealt Rodon. Semien and he who will not be named were, outside of Sale, the only guys this system developed over a decade+. When you don't have anyone of value, you can't make a mistake by trading them away, and it's hard to go a decade without having at least one or two guys be surprisingly good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iWiN4PreP Posted January 20, 2020 Share Posted January 20, 2020 (edited) 4 hours ago, skooch said: I didn't say he wasn't good, he's clearly good. He's just not elite according to the numbers. And by the way, you have quite the ego. Anyone who doesn't agree with you doesn't know baseball, huh? I wasn't making the statement to you. I apologize if you feel it was an attack. It was more of a general statement regarding the thread. There are people out there that think any player leaving Coors will shrivel up and become a weak hitter. And on this note - if we/any team can acquire nolan for a decent price, it should be happening. Edited January 20, 2020 by iWiN4PreP Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skooch Posted January 20, 2020 Share Posted January 20, 2020 24 minutes ago, iWiN4PreP said: I wasn't making the statement to you. I apologize if you feel it was an attack. It was more of a general statement regarding the thread. There are people out there that think any player leaving Coors will shrivel up and become a weak hitter. And on this note - if we/any team can acquire nolan for a decent price, it should be happening. No worries. I didn't take it as an attack at me. I just thought it came across as kind of arrogant. It's all good. Thanks for addressing it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baron Posted January 21, 2020 Share Posted January 21, 2020 Nolan isn't going anywhere right now according to the Rockies GM. Good they need to keep him. Some of the trades I've been seeing from Cardinals fans were for mid level prospects. Just because his contract is perceive to be "high" doesn't mean that Colorado is going to get raked over the coals for him. They probably wanted atleast one top 2 prospect as they should. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted January 21, 2020 Share Posted January 21, 2020 2 minutes ago, Baron said: Nolan isn't going anywhere right now according to the Rockies GM. Good they need to keep him. Some of the trades I've been seeing from Cardinals fans were for mid level prospects. Just because his contract is perceive to be "high" doesn't mean that Colorado is going to get raked over the coals for him. They probably wanted atleast one top 2 prospect as they should. One other part of that has been that the Rockies haven't seemed like they've made any moves to get better this offseason, so if they really aren't going to push to win why are they holding onto him and paying that salary when they only have 2 guaranteed years left before the player option hits? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baron Posted January 21, 2020 Share Posted January 21, 2020 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Balta1701 said: One other part of that has been that the Rockies haven't seemed like they've made any moves to get better this offseason, so if they really aren't going to push to win why are they holding onto him and paying that salary when they only have 2 guaranteed years left before the player option hits? Just a negotiating ploy. All we've heard from the Cardinals media/fans lately is "they have all the leverage" after the last trade. Give them some time to stew. In the end they can't have him there and pay to keep a guy like Story. Edited January 21, 2020 by Baron Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vote4Pedro Posted January 21, 2020 Share Posted January 21, 2020 (edited) Welp looks like Arenado is gonna force himself out. He spoke saying that he feels a lot of disrespect.....things are about to get interesting https://www.mlb.com/news/nolan-arenado-responds-to-trade-rumors Edited January 21, 2020 by HahnsKiddieTable Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jose Abreu Posted January 21, 2020 Share Posted January 21, 2020 Yeah he's gone. That comment is damning. Really curious to see where he and Bryant are playing come 3/26. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soxfan49 Posted January 21, 2020 Share Posted January 21, 2020 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moan4Yoan Posted January 21, 2020 Share Posted January 21, 2020 Yes, force that trade to the Cardinals. This is good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CWSpalehoseCWS Posted January 21, 2020 Share Posted January 21, 2020 5 minutes ago, soxfan49 said: Yikes. Good job Rockies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiSoxFanMike Posted January 21, 2020 Share Posted January 21, 2020 I wonder what the Sox would have to give up at this point since the Rockies have zero leverage. If the asking price isn’t ridiculous I wouldn’t be opposed to it now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmags Posted January 21, 2020 Share Posted January 21, 2020 Teams that handled potential trades of stars well: Red Sox Teams that handled potential trades of stars poorly: Rockies Cubs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moan4Yoan Posted January 21, 2020 Share Posted January 21, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, YouCanPutItOnTheBoardYES! said: I wonder what the Sox would have to give up at this point since the Rockies have zero leverage. If the asking price isn’t ridiculous I wouldn’t be opposed to it now. Arenado at 3B and Moncada at 2B or in RF would be obscene but it would cost too much money and too much talent. Edited January 21, 2020 by Moan4Yoan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moan4Yoan Posted January 21, 2020 Share Posted January 21, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, bmags said: Teams that handled potential trades of stars well: Red Sox Teams that handled potential trades of stars poorly: Rockies Cubs If the latest rumors are true about the Red Sox demanding two top-flight prospects from another team to take on Betts, Price, and all $123 million of their salaries, Betts isn’t going anywhere. https://www.espn.com/mlb/insider/story/_/id/28510783/rob-manfred-mistake-was-giving-sign-stealers-too-much-leeway But for the Rockies GM to come out and state that trading Arenado is now off the table, that was just stupid. It seems like he was trying to get interested teams to up their offers but he ended up pissing off Arenado instead. Now they pretty much have to trade him — Arenado also has an opt out in his contract after the 2021 season. Some of the Cardinals names being rumored were pretty good which makes me think the Cardinals weren’t really offering that much. Edited January 21, 2020 by Moan4Yoan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moan4Yoan Posted January 21, 2020 Share Posted January 21, 2020 Passan piles on... https://mobile.twitter.com/JeffPassan/status/1219447823747502080 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southwest Sider Posted January 21, 2020 Share Posted January 21, 2020 Swoop in with the best shittiest offer and add this stud to the mix. If we can win with a package centered around Madrigal and much lesser prospects, I'd be all over that. Fuck it. Arenado > Madrigal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotty22hotty Posted January 21, 2020 Share Posted January 21, 2020 wouldn't want this crybaby on my team. Dude signed a 250M contract and is talking about how he feels disrespected. what a clown. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moan4Yoan Posted January 21, 2020 Share Posted January 21, 2020 (edited) 18 minutes ago, South Sider said: Swoop in with the best shittiest offer and add this stud to the mix. If we can win with a package centered around Madrigal and much lesser prospects, I'd be all over that. Fuck it. Arenado > Madrigal He’s also owed $234 million over 7 years, which honestly doesn’t look that bad after the Machado and Harper deals but I don’t see how the Sox can take on that kind of money and hope to lock up Moncada, Giolito, etc. 16 minutes ago, scotty22hotty said: wouldn't want this crybaby on my team. Dude signed a 250M contract and is talking about how he feels disrespected. what a clown. Arenado, the Rockies franchise player, just signed a lifetime contract with his original team last offseason and this offseason his GM goes to the public and openly talks about trading him. I don’t really think Arenado is being a crybaby here. He’s the best player on his team by far and the GM is openly discussing trading him away. He should want to go to a team that realizes his value and wants to win. Apparently, the Rockies have decided to change course with their franchise player just one year after extending him and it doesn’t look like they are trying to win anytime soon if they want to trade away Arenado. Edited January 21, 2020 by Moan4Yoan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joejoesox Posted January 21, 2020 Share Posted January 21, 2020 10 hours ago, elrockinMT said: These types of trade deals is what doomed the team to several years of subpar performances. We traded away our good prospects for immediate but short term gratification. We have a pretty solid young team settled at about every position and ready to compete LONG term so let’s not return to the old ways. That is my opinion and I realize others have theirs not to mention that our minor league system is gonna need restocked soon and guys like moncada and giolito are definitely gonna be trade bait after this year if they dont get locked up in 2020 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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