Castellanos to Reds , rumored 4/64M

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

19 minutes ago, ptatc said:

Yes they do. Teams do not have accomplished veterans at every position. They work in young cost controlled players into the lineup and staff. The issue is you can't do it too many positions at once. That is a rebuild. They currently have established players at C, 1B, SS, 3B, LF and DH. This leaves CF, RF, 2B  for the  "banking on potential" players. This is how a team like the White Sox who will have a midrange budget needs to operate.

 

That's pretty good for a team coming out of a rebuild. 

Not to mention all the young pitchers they are banking on. That's a hell of a lot of players to hope have good seasons to think Castellanos will make much difference while sacrificing everything else they would have to sacrifice to get him.

Edited January 22, 2020 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

[Orlando]

1 minute ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

No, roster construction, payroll  and what the Sox have already done has me in this mindset  The Sox will not be getting Castellanos. That is apparent . The Sox would have to  punt either EE  or Mazara. They are going to roll with those guys for the reasons I stated multiple times already. They made those moves because they could not wait to fill holes. They couldn't afford to wait to see if Castellanos market took a dump and if it did they couldn't know for sure they would sign him. Boras is his agent and it's pretty obvious because he hasn't signed that his defense and what Boras is asking for is a huge concern.

The only concern with rebuilding is making sure we have enough pitching. We have enough bats, DH's,and bad defensive corner OF's. There's no room for another one. It's too late in the game to find a taker for EE or Mazara.

I will agree to disagree. Castellanos is better than Mazara and Mazara would be a better 4th OF than Engle. There is no rule that says we can't have too many bats.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

20 minutes ago, Orlando said:

I will agree to disagree. Castellanos is better than Mazara and Mazara would be a better 4th OF than Engle. There is no rule that says we can't have too many bats.

No there isn't a rule there's just the reality that only so many people can play at once and that defense and pitching also have something to do with the outcomes of most games.  Too many DH types won't help the defense or the pitching. 5 guys would be classified as DH types. Abreu, Eloy, EE, Castellanos and I'll even throw Mazara in the mix to satisfy anyone who says they are equally bad in the OF.

Good conversation . Thanks

Edited January 22, 2020 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

[Bob Sacamano]

I'd probably float the same deal as Ozuna out to him for the hell of it honestly.

[EloyJenkins]

1 hour ago, soxfan2014 said:

I'd probably float the same deal as Ozuna out to him for the hell of it honestly.

Boras wouldn't accept. It would have to be more...for ego reasons alone. 

[caulfield12]

Ozuna fired Boras, right?   

[gusguyman]

3 hours ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

How do you know it'll bridge the gap ? Do you sacrifice a potential Mazara break out and the potential to be a valuable trade chip ? Do you sacrifice production from EE ? Someone will be sitting a lot. There's no way to know what their production would be if they are on the bench. Do you sacrifice payroll at the deadline ? Do you sacrifice a versatile bench player for the guy now sitting on the bench who can only either DH or play a bad corner OF ? Do you sacrifice pitcher's ERA , WHIP's. effectiveness and confidence ?

If you want to continue to look at it in a vacuum go right ahead but there are logistics to every move you make that a simple "the dude can rake add him it's a no brainer" entails. So yea you do have to use your brain.

I tend to agree that Castellanos wouldn't be the best use of resources, but also I don't think the logjam is as problematic as you imply here. When everyone is healthy:

Adam Engel optioned to Charlotte

Starting OF of Eloy, Robert, Castellanos.

Mazara takes a 2-3 games a week from Castellanos and Eloy, mostly against RHP. He takes another game a week in RF when you shift Castellanos to DH.

EE at DH 4-5 games a week, Castellanos and Grandal/McCann when you rest him (at his age, we probably don't want to push EE for 140+ games anyway)

You also can move people around to give Jose one game off a week.

That is when everyone is healthy. As soon as one of Robert/Eloy/Castellanos/EE/Jose gets an injury (which seems likely), you shift it all around.

The only disadvantage is you are losing Adam as a late-inning defensive replacement. In a really healthy season, maybe his defense is worth more wins. But if any of those 5 guys misses significant time (or if someone like EE hits the age cliff) having both Castellanos and Mazara makes you a MUCH deeper team, and would obviously be worth more wins.

[ChiSox59]

5 minutes ago, gusguyman said:

I tend to agree that Castellanos wouldn't be the best use of resources, but also I don't think the logjam is as problematic as you imply here. When everyone is healthy:

Adam Engel optioned to Charlotte

Starting OF of Eloy, Robert, Castellanos.

Mazara takes a 2-3 games a week from Castellanos and Eloy, mostly against RHP. He takes another game a week in RF when you shift Castellanos to DH.

EE at DH 4-5 games a week, Castellanos and Grandal/McCann when you rest him (at his age, we probably don't want to push EE for 140+ games anyway)

You also can move people around to give Jose one game off a week.

That is when everyone is healthy. As soon as one of Robert/Eloy/Castellanos/EE/Jose gets an injury (which seems likely), you shift it all around.

The only disadvantage is you are losing Adam as a late-inning defensive replacement. In a really healthy season, maybe his defense is worth more wins. But if any of those 5 guys misses significant time (or if someone like EE hits the age cliff) having both Castellanos and Mazara makes you a MUCH deeper team, and would obviously be worth more wins.

You also have the worst defensive OF in the game with a young developing pitching staff, and you’re going to be forced into sitting a really good stick at all times. The second part I guess is a good problem to have, but it’s pretty extraneous. 

Like I said, I won’t complain about Castellanos on a 1 year deal. I don’t see it as all that likely, but I guess him signing a 1 year deal feels more likely now than it did pre Ozuna signing. Anything over a year would be a such a shortsighted move, and it’d be really hard to convince me otherwise. But I suppose if he’s cheap enough you can always dump him for nothing but salary relief down the road if he doesn’t fall apart. 

I just really want the Sox to play good defense. NC just makes that very difficult. Can live with it for a year for a great value deal, but it’s not a wise longer term decision. 

[gusguyman]

1 hour ago, ChiSox59 said:

You also have the worst defensive OF in the game with a young developing pitching staff, and you’re going to be forced into sitting a really good stick at all times. The second part I guess is a good problem to have, but it’s pretty extraneous. 

Like I said, I won’t complain about Castellanos on a 1 year deal. I don’t see it as all that likely, but I guess him signing a 1 year deal feels more likely now than it did pre Ozuna signing. Anything over a year would be a such a shortsighted move, and it’d be really hard to convince me otherwise. But I suppose if he’s cheap enough you can always dump him for nothing but salary relief down the road if he doesn’t fall apart. 

I just really want the Sox to play good defense. NC just makes that very difficult. Can live with it for a year for a great value deal, but it’s not a wise longer term decision. 

We already have a poor defender in RF, and a lot of scouts/writers are saying NC got better enough at RF this year to move from "worst in the league" to merely "below-average" which probably puts him in the same range as Mazara. 

If someone believes that, what I said above still applies.

If someone doesn't believe in the defensive improvement, I think the result is they just don't sign NC no matter who we had in RF, because Eloy in LF plus the worst defensive RF in the game is likely untenable. Which is a valid argument, but Mazara is pretty irrelevant to it. 

Injuries WILL happen, and I really don't want to be in contention in July and then realize we are about to see if Adam can put up 2 good months as an everyday starter while Eloy recovers from an ankle injury. If someone thought at the start of the offseason that NC would be a good fit for our RF, I think they should still support NC on a cheap deal, even with Mazara.

Edited January 23, 2020 by gusguyman

[EloyJenkins]

Boras will get 3 years for him...Rangers or Cardinals will bite. 

[Moan4Yoan]

Per Heyman (Boras mouthpiece), the Reds are now reportedly interested in Castellanos.

https://mobile.twitter.com/JonHeyman/status/1220155827719430144

[SonofaRoache]

5 hours ago, Orlando said:

I will agree to disagree. Castellanos is better than Mazara and Mazara would be a better 4th OF than Engle. There is no rule that says we can't have too many bats.

Don't forget the Rangers traded Mazara for Walker. They are after Castellanos themselves to replace Mazara's output. 

[Jose Abreu]

2 hours ago, Moan4Yoan said:

Per Heyman (Boras mouthpiece), the Reds are now reportedly interested in Castellanos.

https://mobile.twitter.com/JonHeyman/status/1220155827719430144

Surprised this didn't get any traction here. To me, Boras making Heyman tweet this this signals that this is almost over and Castellanos signs very soon. Either that, or the market is completely dead and he needs a spark

[CWSpalehoseCWS]

7 minutes ago, Jose Abreu said:

Surprised this didn't get any traction here. To me, Boras making Heyman tweet this this signals that this is almost over and Castellanos signs very soon. Either that, or the market is completely dead and he needs a spark

Even despite his bad defense, I can't believe more teams aren't after him. He's still just 27 and theoretically entering his prime. He must be asking for some absurd number for no one to have any interest in him. I can't buy this crap he's waiting on the Cubs to clear salary. No player is stupid enough to ignore 29/30 teams on a hope and prayer the Cubs magically clear $20-30M worth of dead contracts/salary.

[BackDoorBreach]

If Castellanos became Mazara on Defense he's a 3+ win player at our field.  Small sample size but so is his time in the OF, his UZR/150 was better than Mazara when he played games in Wrigley and not an airport of a field. He also improved his DRS from -19 in 2018 (his first year playing OF) to -9 last year.

Will he ever be a good defender? No, but he seems capable of being slightly below average and giving you around 3 WAR, which is a huge upgrade from what Mazara is.

[Bob Sacamano]

1 hour ago, BackDoorBreach said:

If Castellanos became Mazara on Defense he's a 3+ win player at our field.  Small sample size but so is his time in the OF, his UZR/150 was better than Mazara when he played games in Wrigley and not an airport of a field. He also improved his DRS from -19 in 2018 (his first year playing OF) to -9 last year.

Will he ever be a good defender? No, but he seems capable of being slightly below average and giving you around 3 WAR, which is a huge upgrade from what Mazara is.

Alright now I'm more convinced. Go get him Rick!

[Squirmin' for Yermin]

Before his past 2 months with the Cubs... was castellanos more than a 8 million player?  I think he has no market.. He's probably valuing himself as a 20 million and now hoping to get 15 and no one is biting.

[BackDoorBreach]

4 hours ago, cjgalloway said:

Before his past 2 months with the Cubs... was castellanos more than a 8 million player?  I think he has no market.. He's probably valuing himself as a 20 million and now hoping to get 15 and no one is biting.

He put up 3 fWAR as a 26 year old in 2018 and 2.8 last year as a 27 year old and is 3rd in all of MLB over the last 3 years in XBHs, so yeah he was worth more than Kole Calhoun.

[Squirmin' for Yermin]

53 minutes ago, BackDoorBreach said:

He put up 3 fWAR as a 26 year old in 2018 and 2.8 last year as a 27 year old and is 3rd in all of MLB over the last 3 years in XBHs, so yeah he was worth more than Kole Calhoun.

I'm saying if you take OUT his amazing two month stretch (fluke maybe?).. Is he really worth more than Calhoun?  I'm just speaking as GMs proabably are.. Clearly there's a disconnect in his market from what he thinks hes worth and what GMs will pay.. I'm assuming no one wants to pay for that potential 2 month fluke.

[bmags]

14 minutes ago, cjgalloway said:

I'm saying if you take OUT his amazing two month stretch (fluke maybe?).. Is he really worth more than Calhoun?  I'm just speaking as GMs proabably are.. Clearly there's a disconnect in his market from what he thinks hes worth and what GMs will pay.. I'm assuming no one wants to pay for that potential 2 month fluke.

But he was a 130 wRC+ player 2 years ago and 121 wRC+ last year, and has averaged 120 wRC+ over 4 years. 

[BackDoorBreach]

17 minutes ago, cjgalloway said:

I'm saying if you take OUT his amazing two month stretch (fluke maybe?).. Is he really worth more than Calhoun?  I'm just speaking as GMs proabably are.. Clearly there's a disconnect in his market from what he thinks hes worth and what GMs will pay.. I'm assuming no one wants to pay for that potential 2 month fluke.

I thought somewhere around 14-16 million a year was fair.  Obviously we have no idea what the asking price is or was or the years but he's not getting what he wants clearly.

 

[Balta1701]

19 minutes ago, cjgalloway said:

I'm saying if you take OUT his amazing two month stretch (fluke maybe?).. Is he really worth more than Calhoun?  I'm just speaking as GMs proabably are.. Clearly there's a disconnect in his market from what he thinks hes worth and what GMs will pay.. I'm assuming no one wants to pay for that potential 2 month fluke.

If the White Sox had an open DH spot I would happily pay him well more than Calhoun. I'd be totally willing to put him in the OF on a multi-year deal with the ability to move him to DH as a fallback.

But, we've got an expensive DH already.

[he gone.]

42 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

If the White Sox had an open DH spot I would happily pay him well more than Calhoun. I'd be totally willing to put him in the OF on a multi-year deal with the ability to move him to DH as a fallback.

But, we've got an expensive DH already.

Which therein lies the problem ... the Abreu extension just wasn't necessary at all. He had his 1 year deal. He gave his intention to stay here for his career ... he would've been okay without having to extend him this off-season. Just made no sense. Hell, you could've done it, but later in the off season too ... that wouldve given flexibility for situations like this and Ozuna and/or driven the price down more. Just never made business sense. Again, i'm on the record as okay with it for sentimental reasons, but business wise it doesn't. 

 

Same thing will end up happening on the Grandal signing. 2 years in when we're using computers to make calls his framing will be useless and we'll have a catcher on the wrong side of 30 blocked at the DH spot putting up meh numbers and still being paid well. 

 

Both deals had and have their merit for many reasons outside the bad aspects, just those bad aspects can come back to haunt you a lot when you have a "small market" owner. 

[ptatc]

15 minutes ago, BrianAnderson said:

Which therein lies the problem ... the Abreu extension just wasn't necessary at all. He had his 1 year deal. He gave his intention to stay here for his career ... he would've been okay without having to extend him this off-season. Just made no sense. Hell, you could've done it, but later in the off season too ... that wouldve given flexibility for situations like this and Ozuna and/or driven the price down more. Just never made business sense. Again, i'm on the record as okay with it for sentimental reasons, but business wise it doesn't. 

 

Same thing will end up happening on the Grandal signing. 2 years in when we're using computers to make calls his framing will be useless and we'll have a catcher on the wrong side of 30 blocked at the DH spot putting up meh numbers and still being paid well. 

 

Both deals had and have their merit for many reasons outside the bad aspects, just those bad aspects can come back to haunt you a lot when you have a "small market" owner. 

Castellanos is not an appreciably better hitter for the difference in money and years as well as the intangibles.

[Bob Sacamano]

22 minutes ago, BrianAnderson said:

Which therein lies the problem ... the Abreu extension just wasn't necessary at all. He had his 1 year deal. He gave his intention to stay here for his career ... he would've been okay without having to extend him this off-season. Just made no sense. Hell, you could've done it, but later in the off season too ... that wouldve given flexibility for situations like this and Ozuna and/or driven the price down more. Just never made business sense. Again, i'm on the record as okay with it for sentimental reasons, but business wise it doesn't. 

 

Same thing will end up happening on the Grandal signing. 2 years in when we're using computers to make calls his framing will be useless and we'll have a catcher on the wrong side of 30 blocked at the DH spot putting up meh numbers and still being paid well. 

 

Both deals had and have their merit for many reasons outside the bad aspects, just those bad aspects can come back to haunt you a lot when you have a "small market" owner. 

It's my least favorite move of the off-season honestly. Pay him the $18 mill for one year and then re-evaluate next off-season.