So What Happens to Zack Collins?

[tray]

I don't understand the preoccupation with a second tier prospect like Collins.  Let it go man.

[michelangelosmonkey]

45 minutes ago, tray said:

I don't understand the preoccupation with a second tier prospect like Collins.  Let it go man.

I dont understand coming to a thread titled "so what happens to Zack Collins" and then wondering why people are commenting on Zack Collins.

[Chisox378]

46 minutes ago, tray said:

I don't understand the preoccupation with a second tier prospect like Collins.  Let it go man.

Collins was the 10th overall pick and dominated AAA last season after being sent down. He is a Sox top 5 prospect in my opinion.

[Chisox378]

2 hours ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

What we know for sure is Collins was a top 10 pick in the draft, led all of college in walks, led all the minor leagues in walks and he's 24 and a lefty and catches.   We know that a keen batting eye translates positively, eventually, in the majors and power translates.

This^^^^^^

[caulfield12]

1 hour ago, Chisox378 said:

Collins was the 10th overall pick and dominated AAA last season after being sent down. He is a Sox top 5 prospect in my opinion.

Except there’s a huge dropoff from Top 4 to Collins...then again to all those pitchers like Stiever, Thompson and Dahlquist.

Steele Walker is now #12 for the Rangers, for example.

[SoCalChiSox]

I wonder if we could get Brandon Marsh from the Angels for McCann as it was noted by the MLBExec guy that this was one of the teams that was interested in him.

That would be a really good long term get for RF....left handed...plus arm/plus defense, high OBP. 

[tray]

3 hours ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

 Collins has done everything the Sox have asked and he will continue to do so. I think they like him 

and he could not have done any better than he did when they sent him back down .... He literally was hitting like his hair was on fire . Just wildly good numbers

Everyone in the majors and AAA hit with a juiced ball so no reason to downgrade Collins for that. ...  he's done everything the Sox wanted him to and passed with flying colors at least in July and August .

Fans who love this prospect have to trust the professionals in the Sox organization who advised the front office to pursue Grandal  and Encarcion.   Quite simply, they decided to take a win-now approach.

If Collins can't convince the front office after 4 years in the minors that he can catch at a major league level, he may have a hard time making the roster or holding down a spot on it if/when he does get called up.   The Sox do not need a DH now that they signed  Encarcion for the next year or two and after that, Vaughn will likely come up.   Meanwhile, Collins  can light his hair on fire hitting in the minors, coax record walks from AAA pitchers, and have a fan club on the internet trying to promote him, but it won't matter. 

[Dizzy Sox]

It feels inevitable that Collins will be gifted to the A’s in a boneheaded trade and then spend the next decade posting .850 obs seasons 

[Chisox378]

3 hours ago, SoCalChiSox said:

I wonder if we could get Brandon Marsh from the Angels for McCann as it was noted by the MLBExec guy that this was one of the teams that was interested in him.

That would be a really good long term get for RF....left handed...plus arm/plus defense, high OBP. 

If there is anyone I want on the Angels it's David Fletcher! 

[Chisox378]

1 hour ago, Dizzy Sox said:

It feels inevitable that Collins will be gifted to the A’s in a boneheaded trade and then spend the next decade posting .850 obs seasons 

Yes, the A's know a good hitter with high OBP when they see one.

[zisk]

6 hours ago, Dizzy Sox said:

It feels inevitable that Collins will be gifted to the A’s in a boneheaded trade and then spend the next decade posting .850 obs seasons 

     I've had the same feeling. It makes me queasy just thinking about it.

[TheFutureIsNear]

8 hours ago, tray said:

Fans who love this prospect have to trust the professionals in the Sox organization who advised the front office to pursue Grandal  and Encarcion.   Quite simply, they decided to take a win-now approach.

If Collins can't convince the front office after 4 years in the minors that he can catch at a major league level, he may have a hard time making the roster or holding down a spot on it if/when he does get called up.   The Sox do not need a DH now that they signed  Encarcion for the next year or two and after that, Vaughn will likely come up.   Meanwhile, Collins  can light his hair on fire hitting in the minors, coax record walks from AAA pitchers, and have a fan club on the internet trying to promote him, but it won't matter. 

Lol what a bad post. You sound like you have some weird personal agenda against Collins.

 

In what world do you live in where it’s bad to have too many good, young, and cheap hitters? Abreu and Encarnacion are old, injuries happen, Vaughn isn’t a sure thing, exct...I can ramble off 20 good reasons to not just get rid of a mostly successful prospect that was drafted in the top 10. Just relax and let it play out, no need to rush anything unless someone really blows us away with a trade offer.

[Dominikk85]

I think they should start him at AAA and if there is a good trade you do it but no need to give him away, a cheap hitter in the system never hurts.

If you could get a good reliever with 3 years of control for example I would do it. Or a good (50fv) lower level middle infield prospect.

But no need to trade him for a lottery ticket type of young prospect or a crap major leaguer.

[tray]

57 minutes ago, TheFutureIsNear said:

Lol what a bad post. You sound like you have some weird personal agenda...

 

I always discount a post when it begins with a personal attack.

Edited December 28, 2019 by tray

[Chicago White Sox]

35 minutes ago, tray said:

I always discount a post when it begins with a personal attack.

Not really a personal attack when you literally said let’s trade Collins, a former top 100 prospect coming off a 140 wRC+ season as a 24 year old in AAA who has two options remaining, for a “bucket of balls”.  You do seem to have some weird personal agenda with Zack.

[poppysox]

1 hour ago, tray said:

I always discount a post when it begins with a personal attack.

Agreed!  Posters should try to disagree without being disagreeable.

[NCsoxfan]

Nobody here is wanting to throw Collins into the trash, just saying he can spend another year in Charlotte or force the Sox’s hand 

[Justinsettle]

Collins stats in triple A are arguably better - at worse very similar- than Luis Robert.  Yet if we traded Robert we would have members of this forum jumping off rooftops.  I agree you need a package that blows you away to trade him.  
 

RC+ 140 OPS 951 k% 26.7 BB%  13.7 Collins

RC+ 136 OPS 974 k% 24.7 BB% 4.9 Robert

[bmags]

9 minutes ago, Justinsettle said:

Collins stats in triple A are arguably better - at worse very similar- than Luis Robert.  Yet if we traded Robert we would have members of this forum jumping off rooftops.  I agree you need a package that blows you away to trade him.  
 

RC+ 140 OPS 951 k% 26.7 BB%  13.7 Collins

RC+ 136 OPS 974 k% 24.7 BB% 4.9 Robert

Robert is younger and was better at every level. He’s more athletic and has way more value in every way, and did not come up to mlb and look like he couldn’t catch up to fastballs.

[Justinsettle]

And Robert will likely struggle too once brought up in his first 100 AB.  The fact remains giving up on Collins- after 100 AB-  is ridiculous.  

[XplodingScorbord]

On 12/27/2019 at 4:11 PM, michelangelosmonkey said:

This falls into my theory that 2020 is going to be all about teaching Collins the art of catching.  I really believe this is the truth...they are confident he will hit so don't really need him to spend time on that...and spending a year tutoring under McCann and Grandal and the major league coaches and drinking and eating catching every day is what I would do with Collins.  

This actually makes a ton of sense. He can be in catcher school with two good teachers day in and day out. Every so often he can catch a game and see if he can apply the lessons in real game action. Then he can sit with these guys and live, eat, and breathe what they do. He can DH some, and maybe pick up some 1B fill-in action as well. Then, when McCann has another solid year, we trade him at the deadline and our star pupil can become our primary backup catcher, with TA waiting in the wings, of course, cuz this is SoxTalk. . 

[michelangelosmonkey]

12 hours ago, bmags said:

Robert is younger and was better at every level. He’s more athletic and has way more value in every way, and did not come up to mlb and look like he couldn’t catch up to fastballs.

I don't think anyone seriously thinks Collins is a better prospect than Robert.  Ted Simmons had a number of 5+ WAR seasons and ended up with 50+ WAR for his career...Ken Griffey Jr had a number of 9+ War season and ended up with 80+ WAR.  I think the point is Collins has enormous potential if he's a catcher and while we should be excited about him so many on here (wasting our time on a second tier prospect) just think he's garbage based on Klaw's trashing (also trashed Sale) and 50 bad at bats to start his career (Robin Ventura's 56 war career began with 0-50).   For the White Sox to be a dynasty having a catcher putting up 5 WAR  a year for five years will be useful.  

[fathom]

13 minutes ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

I don't think anyone seriously thinks Collins is a better prospect than Robert.  Ted Simmons had a number of 5+ WAR seasons and ended up with 50+ WAR for his career...Ken Griffey Jr had a number of 9+ War season and ended up with 80+ WAR.  I think the point is Collins has enormous potential if he's a catcher and while we should be excited about him so many on here (wasting our time on a second tier prospect) just think he's garbage based on Klaw's trashing (also trashed Sale) and 50 bad at bats to start his career (Robin Ventura's 56 war career began with 0-50).   For the White Sox to be a dynasty having a catcher putting up 5 WAR  a year for five years will be useful.  

It’s not just KLaw, find me one non-Sox related scout that thinks he can still be a catcher and get back to me.

[Chicago White Sox]

1 hour ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

For the White Sox to be a dynasty having a catcher putting up 5 WAR  a year for five years will be useful.  

5 WAR a season catcher?  Now I’m truly convinced you know nothing about Zack Collins if you think there’s any chance he has that type of ceiling.  Do you know how many catchers put up five win seasons last year?  Two of them.  What did they have in common?  Both provide elite defensive value plus an above average to elite bat.  Zack Collins will never be a good defensive catcher.  Maybe his poor receiving can improve in time, but his lack of athleticism behind the plate will limit him to be average at best.  As for his bat, there is potential there but he’s not putting up a .951 OPS in the majors.  His AAA stats were without question skewed by playing half his games at BB&T Ballpark (1.174 OPS at home vs .731 on the road).  Again, he is an interesting prospect due to his elite plate discipline and plus raw power, but his swing & miss issues (even with the changes he made) will likely prevent him ever being a game changing hitter.  He can still be a useful platoon bat for us and maybe he can develop his receiving to be a part-time catcher, but he is not this potential star you make him out to be.

[michelangelosmonkey]

9 hours ago, Chicago White Sox said:

5 WAR a season catcher?  Now I’m truly convinced you know nothing about Zack Collins if you think there’s any chance he has that type of ceiling.  Do you know how many catchers put up five win seasons last year?  Two of them.  What did they have in common?  Both provide elite defensive value plus an above average to elite bat.  Zack Collins will never be a good defensive catcher.  Maybe his poor receiving can improve in time, but his lack of athleticism behind the plate will limit him to be average at best.  As for his bat, there is potential there but he’s not putting up a .951 OPS in the majors.  His AAA stats were without question skewed by playing half his games at BB&T Ballpark (1.174 OPS at home vs .731 on the road).  Again, he is an interesting prospect due to his elite plate discipline and plus raw power, but his swing & miss issues (even with the changes he made) will likely prevent him ever being a game changing hitter.  He can still be a useful platoon bat for us and maybe he can develop his receiving to be a part-time catcher, but he is not this potential star you make him out to be.

I bow to your obvious wisdom of Collins and knowledge of the future.  I presented a case study...Ted Simmons, who I think is similar to Collins.  TS put up 45 WAR in a 9 season stretch almost all of it with offense...his average DWAR over 21 seasons was basically 0.  You countered with...what...his 30 bad at bats in June?    To state categorically that Collins will not be a future hitting star because of his swing and miss issues (He hit .280 in AAA which is not helped by juiced ball or BB&T) echoes what others here said about Moncada last year at this time.  Seems someone said half way through the season that he would NEVER hit above .280 in a season...except, your know, last year.   What is one of Moncada's best skills...his elite batters eye, which allowed him to learn to wait for pitches he could hit.  If Collins, as a lefty, can hit .275 in the majors and walk 100 times...and hit 30 homers...and be a slightly below average defensive catcher...he will be a 10 time all star.  Obviously that is his ceiling. I am just bothered by the suggestion his ceiling is back up catcher and pinch hitter.