So What Happens to Zack Collins?

[Dick Allen]

They have 5 catchers on the 40 man, and just paid a guy a team record to be the #1. Either Collins or McCann will be traded. It's pretty obvious. I am going with McCann because Collins makes a lot less money, has a lot more team control, and fits the roster better, in the part time role. Are you really going to sit Abreu or EE vs. LHP to keep McCann from getting rusty? 

McCann was great in 2019, but just remember a year ago. Many of the same people who seem to think the White Sox now cannot live without a $5.6 million a year back up catcher, were up in arms this same catcher was signed at a rate half of that. There should be some regression. It's time to cash in.

If the Sox wanted him to be the every day catcher, they wouldn't have signed Grandal. If they thought he could be a pretty good DH vs. LHP, EE would still be looking for a job or would have re-signed with Toronto. I'm thinking he's a goner.

Edited December 26, 2019 by Dick Allen

[Tnetennba]

Assuming EE & Grandal cover backup 1B, a bench of:

Leury UTIL

Engel 4th OF

McCann backup C

Backup INF (?)

Not much room on the bench unless they only carry 12 pitchers. 

[Chicago White Sox]

12 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

They have 5 catchers on the 40 man, and just paid a guy a team record to be the #1. Either Collins or McCann will be traded. It's pretty obvious. I am going with McCann because Collins makes a lot less money, has a lot more team control, and fits the roster better, in the part time role. Are you really going to sit Abreu or EE vs. LHP to keep McCann from getting rusty? 

McCann was great in 2019, but just remember a year ago. Many of the same people who seem to think the White Sox now cannot live without a $5.6 million a year back up catcher, were up in arms this same catcher was signed at a rate half of that. There should be some regression. It's time to cash in.

If the Sox wanted him to be the every day catcher, they wouldn't have signed Grandal. If they thought he could be a pretty good DH vs. LHP, EE would still be looking for a job or would have re-signed with Toronto. I'm thinking he's a goner.

100% agree.  I think they try to find a team desperate for catching and float McCann as an option.  I don’t think they just give him away though.

[ChiSox59]

16 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

They have 5 catchers on the 40 man, and just paid a guy a team record to be the #1. Either Collins or McCann will be traded. It's pretty obvious. I am going with McCann because Collins makes a lot less money, has a lot more team control, and fits the roster better, in the part time role. Are you really going to sit Abreu or EE vs. LHP to keep McCann from getting rusty? 

McCann was great in 2019, but just remember a year ago. Many of the same people who seem to think the White Sox now cannot live without a $5.6 million a year back up catcher, were up in arms this same catcher was signed at a rate half of that. There should be some regression. It's time to cash in.

If the Sox wanted him to be the every day catcher, they wouldn't have signed Grandal. If they thought he could be a pretty good DH vs. LHP, EE would still be looking for a job or would have re-signed with Toronto. I'm thinking he's a goner.

McCann is getting paid $5.4M, not the $5.6M you’ve sighted a ton of times in recent days. 

[Dick Allen]

4 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

McCann is getting paid $5.4M, not the $5.6M you’ve sighted a ton of times in recent days. 

Sorry for the huge mistake. That probably changes things. 

[SonofaRoache]

13 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

McCann is getting paid $5.4M, not the $5.6M you’ve sighted a ton of times in recent days. 

Please explain how the number he listed was sighted.  

[Lillian]

If McCann is traded and Grandal is injured, who becomes the full time catcher? Do you really believe that Collins, who is defensively challenged and unproven as a Major League hitter, is a viable choice to assume the responsibilities of an every day catcher? Is there anyone else in the organization who is a capable enough receiver, to be given that responsibility? Zavala, Mercedes, Gonzales? What is the urgency to trade McCann and his reasonable salary? He will be a free agent, and likely gone, after this season. If Collins is ready then, to be Grandal's tandem partner, he could be given the opportunity in 2021, but it's premature to do so now and not necessary.

[Chicago White Sox]

1 minute ago, Lillian said:

If McCann is traded and Grandal is injured, who becomes the full time catcher? Do you really believe that Collins, who is defensively challenged and unproven as a Major League hitter, is a viable choice to assume the responsibilities of an every day catcher? Is there anyone else in the organization who is a capable enough receiver, to be given that responsibility? Zavala, Mercedes, Gonzales? What is the urgency to trade McCann and his reasonable salary? He will be a free agent, and likely gone, after this season. If Collins is ready then, to be Grandal's tandem partner, he could be given the opportunity in 2021, but it's premature to do so now and not necessary.

How will we know if Collins is ready for 2021 if we don’t give him a chance in 2020?  We know he can hit AAA pitching with a juiced ball in a bandbox.  We need to see if he can hit major league pitching and more importantly whether he can handle our major league staff behind the plate.  If we don’t take that risk now and find out what we have in Collins, then we’re taking an even bigger risk come 2021 as that’s a season we should definitely be serious contenders.

[caulfield12]

2 hours ago, thxfrthmmrs said:

Umm no... exactly the opposite. Swanson has been a disappointment so far so Dbacks do not regret trading him away. They regret however acquiring the wrong pitcher. That just goes to show you prospects are no sure things, even if it’s the #1 overall pick at a premium position.

In a hypothetical scenario between a 1B prospect and a cost controlled TOR type SP like Clevinger, I go for the pitcher 10/10.

 

Why would the Indians entertain such a scenario for Clevinger?  They’re going to want Madrigal and Vaughn.

How is Vaughn even blocked?   Abreu is going to have to give way...and there’s zero guarantee that Encarnacion will be around for more than one season.

In reality, Swanson still has time to establish himself.  The Braves are going to be patient with him, just like the Sox were with Tim Anderson.  He’s still going to be only 26 at the start of the season, and has been worth 1.7 per season averaging only 130 games played the last two years.   A 2.1 SS isn’t great, but nobody’s giving up on him quite yet, either.  You’re not drafted 1-1 without a reason.

Let’s see what he can when fully healthy for an entire season.

[Dick Allen]

Trading Vaughn would be dumb. Trading Vaughn to the Indians would be dumber.

[poppysox]

14 minutes ago, Lillian said:

If McCann is traded and Grandal is injured, who becomes the full time catcher? Do you really believe that Collins, who is defensively challenged and unproven as a Major League hitter, is a viable choice to assume the responsibilities of an every day catcher? Is there anyone else in the organization who is a capable enough receiver, to be given that responsibility? Zavala, Mercedes, Gonzales? What is the urgency to trade McCann and his reasonable salary? He will be a free agent, and likely gone, after this season. If Collins is ready then, to be Grandal's tandem partner, he could be given the opportunity in 2021, but it's premature to do so now and not necessary.

Agreed!  A strong backup catcher is necessary on good teams.  The mentoring from two good catchers will do lots for Collins development as well.

[Eminor3rd]

Charlotte. 

[Lillian]

21 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

How will we know if Collins is ready for 2021 if we don’t give him a chance in 2020?  We know he can hit AAA pitching with a juiced ball in a bandbox.  We need to see if he can hit major league pitching and more importantly whether he can handle our major league staff behind the plate.  If we don’t take that risk now and find out what we have in Collins, then we’re taking an even bigger risk come 2021 as that’s a season we should definitely be serious contenders.

It's a matter of priorities. Which do you regard as more important; finding playing time for Collins, in order to evaluate his, as yet undetermined capabilities, or making sure that there is a proven, capable catcher to handle the 2020 pitching staff? If you want to prioritize the former, then give him more playing time, even if it means McCann has to spend more time on the bench. His salary is not inhibiting any other moves. 

I'd prefer to put the best team possible on the field this year and finally begin to compete. Two rookies; Robert and Madrigal are enough question marks to have among the position players.

Edited December 26, 2019 by Lillian

[Dick Allen]

23 minutes ago, Lillian said:

If McCann is traded and Grandal is injured, who becomes the full time catcher? Do you really believe that Collins, who is defensively challenged and unproven as a Major League hitter, is a viable choice to assume the responsibilities of an every day catcher? Is there anyone else in the organization who is a capable enough receiver, to be given that responsibility? Zavala, Mercedes, Gonzales? What is the urgency to trade McCann and his reasonable salary? He will be a free agent, and likely gone, after this season. If Collins is ready then, to be Grandal's tandem partner, he could be given the opportunity in 2021, but it's premature to do so now and not necessary.

Again, if Grandal is hurt, the Sox are screwed anyways. The best back up catcher in the league with one of the top catchers in the league as the regular, is a lot like owning the largest and best house you could get in the worst neighborhood.  For a team with limited resources, you re-allocate those funds so they can be better used. What if Eloy gets hurt again? Do the Sox need to sign Puig? What if Anderson gets hurt? Do they need to find a top of the line SS to sit on the bench until it happens? Worrying about Grandal being hurt is shortsided. McCann is a short term employee not matter what. He probably would appreciate RH finding him a place where he will play a bit more. 

[caulfield12]

Renteria will go with McCann over Collins as long as he’s on the roster.   Heck, he still went with Castillo over Collins frequently in the second half last year....until the very end of the season.

[Dick Allen]

It's really not a choice of McCann or Collins. Its McCann or Collins plus another pitcher.

[Chicago White Sox]

3 minutes ago, Lillian said:

It's a matter of priorities. Which do you regard as more important; finding playing time for Collins, in order to evaluate his, as yet undetermined capabilities, or making sure that there is a proven, capable catcher to handle the 2020 pitching staff? If you want to prioritize the former, then give him more playing time, even if it means McCann has to spend more time on the bench. His salary is not inhibiting any other moves. 

They aren’t going to carry McCann on the 25 man roster and not play him.  Either he’s here and the primary backup or he’s getting moved.  Also, if McCann is so critical to our 2020 success, how will we survive without him in 2021?

[Lillian]

2 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

Again, if Grandal is hurt, the Sox are screwed anyways. The best back up catcher in the league with one of the top catchers in the league as the regular, is a lot like owning the largest and best house you could get in the worst neighborhood.  For a team with limited resources, you re-allocate those funds so they can be better used. What if Eloy gets hurt again? Do the Sox need to sign Puig? What if Anderson gets hurt? Do they need to find a top of the line SS to sit on the bench until it happens? Worrying about Grandal being hurt is shortsided. McCann is a short term employee not matter what. He probably would appreciate RH finding him a place where he will play a bit more. 

I understand your point, however remember that catching is a 2 man position, even with the best receiver. No one catches every game. Your back up catcher is not merely there for insurance. He is going to get approximately 1/3 of the games, and is therefore almost like a starter. 

[thxfrthmmrs]

14 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

Why would the Indians entertain such a scenario for Clevinger?  They’re going to want Madrigal and Vaughn.

How is Vaughn even blocked?   Abreu is going to have to give way...and there’s zero guarantee that Encarnacion will be around for more than one season.

In reality, Swanson still has time to establish himself.  The Braves are going to be patient with him, just like the Sox were with Tim Anderson.  He’s still going to be only 26 at the start of the season, and has been worth 1.7 per season averaging only 130 games played the last two years.   A 2.1 SS isn’t great, but nobody’s giving up on him quite yet, either.  You’re not drafted 1-1 without a reason.

Let’s see what he can when fully healthy for an entire season.

So you went from Sox shouldn't do it to why would Cleveland do it? (also you clearly missed my other post on Vaughn going to Cleveland in a package, not just Vaughn himself. Also caveat is if Collins shows he could be the 1B/DH of the future, the bigger point was to not trade Collins at this moment.)

Also you went from when was the last time a top 3 pick was traded within 2 years to Dbacks shit the bed by trading Swanson to now, well, Swanson is at least a below average starter... Very convincing argument there (clearly you have none). Again Swanson is a prime example showing prospects aren't sure things. Clevinger is likely a 15 WAR SP until he hits FA with a surplus value of over $90M. If you could trade a 1B prospect for a guy likely that, you'd do it without thinking twice. That is all without even getting into the Sox's biggest need right now is a TOR starter, not a 1B/DH bat.

[Lillian]

8 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

They aren’t going to carry McCann on the 25 man roster and not play him.  Either he’s here and the primary backup or he’s getting moved.  Also, if McCann is so critical to our 2020 success, how will we survive without him in 2021?

OK, so then do I understand that you would be comfortable with having Collins be the primary receiver, in the event of an injury to Grandal? And, if so, then who would be his tandem partner? 

Regarding your second question; Hopefully, we will have a better idea of Collins capabilities by 2021, whether he plays full time at Charlotte, or in a very limited role on the Sox. I just don't like the idea of risking giving him responsibilities, which are beyond his capabilities. If he were a really good defensive catcher, given the strength of our offense, it would be plausible to just carry his bat, even if his hitting were disappointing. However, I'm not comfortable with the idea of trusting his ability to be an every day catcher. Catchers get hurt. It's a position which subjects players to a lot of punishment. It's so easy to take a foul tip off a finger and be lost for months. It seems like a wonderful situation to have two good defensive catchers, sharing the duties. That, to me, is a higher priority. Nevertheless, I respect and appreciate your point of view. 

Edited December 26, 2019 by Lillian

[steveno89]

Just now, Lillian said:

OK, so then do I understand that you would be comfortable with having Collins be the primary receiver, in the event of an injury to Grandal? And, if so, then who would be his tandem partner?

Collins will be headed to Charlotte where he would get a ton of playing time. He can be called up if Grandal/McCann go down with an injury.

[Chicago White Sox]

3 minutes ago, Lillian said:

OK, so then do I understand that you would be comfortable with having Collins be the primary receiver, in the event of an injury to Grandal? And, if so, then who would be his tandem partner?

Zavala, Mercedes, free agent veteran, etc.  Like @Dick Allen said, if Grandal goes down we’re in trouble anyways.  Assuming Yasmani’s health (which should be the assumption given his track record), getting Collins 40 starts at catcher next year is the right way to balance risk & reward.  And let me be clear, I’m not suggesting we just give McCann away.  I’m saying I’d rather extract value from him if possible and give Collins a limited opportunity next year.  

Also, McCann getting 40 or 50 starts next year means he’s facing quite a bit of RHP or one of EE, Grandal, or Abreu is on the bench against LHP.  Either one of those options aren’t very good.  All else being equal, I’d rather get Collins’ bat in the lineup against RHP ~80 times as the backup catcher and part-time 1B / DH than have a stronger instance policy in the small chance Grandal goes down for an extended period of time.

[caulfield12]

19 minutes ago, thxfrthmmrs said:

So you went from Sox shouldn't do it to why would Cleveland do it? (also you clearly missed my other post on Vaughn going to Cleveland in a package, not just Vaughn himself. Also caveat is if Collins shows he could be the 1B/DH of the future, the bigger point was to not trade Collins at this moment.)

Also you went from when was the last time a top 3 pick was traded within 2 years to Dbacks shit the bed by trading Swanson to now, well, Swanson is at least a below average starter... Very convincing argument there (clearly you have none). Again Swanson is a prime example showing prospects aren't sure things. Clevinger is likely a 15 WAR SP until he hits FA with a surplus value of over $90M. If you could trade a 1B prospect for a guy likely that, you'd do it without thinking twice. That is all without even getting into the Sox's biggest need right now is a TOR starter, not a 1B/DH bat.

But why the heck would Cleveland do that, and with the White Sox?  It has never made any sense at all.  For a divisional rival, they’re going to premium value him like they’re trading two years of Lindor for and asking for Lux, Verdugo and May in return.

Next, there’s never been a tangible link between either Bieber or Clevinger and the White Sox...if it’s going to be anyone, it would be them offloading Carrasco first.

You’re also forgetting the White Sox never trade their first round position prospects until they drive their value into the ground first.   This is not Poreda or Ring, it’s a Golden Spikes winner.

 

 

Edited December 26, 2019 by caulfield12

[Lillian]

5 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Zavala, Mercedes, free agent veteran, etc.  Like @Dick Allen said, if Grandal goes down we’re in trouble anyways.  Assuming Yasmani’s health (which should be the assumption given his track record), getting Collins 40 starts at catcher next year is the right way to balance risk & reward.  And let me be clear, I’m not suggesting we just give McCann away.  I’m saying I’d rather extract value from him if possible and give Collins a limited opportunity next year.  

Also, McCann getting 40 or 50 starts next year means he’s facing quite a bit of RHP or one of EE, Grandal, or Abreu is on the bench against LHP.  Either one of those options aren’t very good.  All else being equal, I’d rather get Collins’ bat in the lineup against RHP ~80 times as the backup catcher and part-time 1B / DH than have a stronger instance policy in the small chance Grandal goes down for an extended period of time.

Aren't both Zavala and Mercedes considered poor defensive catchers? What good defensive veteran catcher is out there, whom could be acquired, in the event of an injury to Grandal? Isn't it more common for a team, with a good all around catcher, to have a really good defensive, albeit poor hitting catcher, as his tandem? That would be acceptable, in my opinion. Perhaps I just place more value on the defensive side of catching. A good hitting catcher is a bonus, but not essential. A poor defensive catcher is unacceptable. I have never seen a scouting report on Collins, which was optimistic about his defense.

Edited December 26, 2019 by Lillian

[Dick Allen]

1 minute ago, Lillian said:

Aren't both Zavala and Mercedes considered poor defensive catchers? What good defensive veteran catcher is out there, whom could be acquired, in the event of an injury to Grandal? Isn't it more common for a team, with a good all around catcher, to have a really good defensive, albeit poor hitting catcher, as his tandem? That would be acceptable, in my opinion.

McCann isn't exactly considered a gold glover.