So What Happens to Zack Collins?

[Lillian]

1 minute ago, Dick Allen said:

McCann isn't exactly considered a gold glover. 

Are you seriously suggesting that McCann is anything other than a solid, capable receiver? The catcher doesn't have to be a Gold Glover, but he has to be a legitimate Major League catcher.

[Chicago White Sox]

Just now, Lillian said:

Aren't both Zavala and Mercedes considered poor defensive catchers? What good defensive veteran catcher is out there, whom could be acquired, in the event of an injury to Grandal? Isn't it more common for a team, with a good all around catcher, to have a really good defensive, albeit poor hitting catcher, as his tandem? That would be acceptable, in my opinion.

It’s more common because there are more good defensive but poor hitting catchers in baseball and teams don’t typically want to spend a lot of money on their backup catcher spot.  And why are we making plans now to address a scenario that’s unlikely to exist?  2020 is going to be a high variance season to begin with and we will need a lot to go right to be legit playoff contented.  And under that assumption, I want the extra left-handed bat in the lineup as much as possible and not bank on a 5% outcome coming to fruition.  Plus, to my original point, getting Collins some time behind the plate this year let’s us better grasp if he can handle the role in a very critical 2021 season.  I can’t believe you’d be ok with going with an untested Collins as our backup backstop in 2021 but are totally against it in 2020.

[Dick Allen]

10 minutes ago, Lillian said:

Are you seriously suggesting that McCann is anything other than a solid, capable receiver? The catcher doesn't have to be a Gold Glover, but he has to be a legitimate Major League catcher.

I am saying his defense isn't as solid as you seem to make it.  Admittedly, pitchers seem to like to throw to him. He seems to call a decent game but he is an awful framer. Whether Collins is a decent framer, there isn't enough evidence to show at the moment. But he should be capable of catching 40 or 45 games, and DHing or playing 1B vs. RHP. Somehow the Sox did win 5 of the 10 games he caught last year. 

What are you going to do after 2020 when McCann wants starting catcher money, assuming he doesn't regress to the point most projections have him regressing?

There is no perfect team, not even teams with double the payroll the Sox can throw out there. Back up catcher with the DH position filled, is one place you can skimp a little. 

The one team I know of with a back up catcher you would think can be or should be a starter is the Cubs, and guess what? The rumor is they want to trade their #1 catcher. 

You don't have to have much to be league average at back up catcher.

Edited December 26, 2019 by Dick Allen

[ChiSox59]

1 hour ago, Dick Allen said:

Sorry for the huge mistake. That probably changes things. 

It doesn’t change anything and I certainly don’t need an apology, but it doesn’t hurt to use the correct number. 

[MeanJoeCrede]

13 minutes ago, Lillian said:

Aren't both Zavala and Mercedes considered poor defensive catchers? What good defensive veteran catcher is out there, whom could be acquired, in the event of an injury to Grandal? Isn't it more common for a team, with a good all around catcher, to have a really good defensive, albeit poor hitting catcher, as his tandem? That would be acceptable, in my opinion. Perhaps I just place more value on the defensive side of catching. A good hitting catcher is a bonus, but not essential. A poor defensive catcher is unacceptable. I have never seen a scouting report on Collins, which was optimistic about his defense.

Defensive first, no bat catchers are everywhere. You can find one for about 50 cents. Worrying about Grandal getting hurt is not worth worrying about.

[TaylorStSox]

It would be so White Sox to extend all the RH hitters who don't walk and trade the LH power bat who walks a ton. 

[tray]

I hope the Sox trade Collins for a minor league relief pitcher and end the absurd debate about whether he is the future catcher for the White Sox.

That ship sailed even before the Sox signed Grandal.   Let Collins get yet another chance to prove himself....on another team.

[YouCanPutItOnTheBoardYES!]

Count me in the group that would rather trade McCann than Collins. I like McCann a lot, but it’s pretty obvious that his first half of 2019 was an anomaly. If Hahn can sell high on him, he should do it. 

[soxfan49]

2 minutes ago, YouCanPutItOnTheBoardYES! said:

Count me in the group that would rather trade McCann than Collins. I like McCann a lot, but it’s pretty obvious that his first half of 2019 was an anomaly. If Hahn can sell high on him, he should do it. 

Really? Because his August and September were really good

[Lillian]

Thank you, gentlemen, for an interesting, spirited discussion. It appears that most here have not been moved off of their original positions. It is obviously a contentious issue and It will be interesting to see what course the front office takes.

[KopechThrowsHeat]

7 minutes ago, YouCanPutItOnTheBoardYES! said:

Count me in the group that would rather trade McCann than Collins. I like McCann a lot, but it’s pretty obvious that his first half of 2019 was an anomaly. If Hahn can sell high on him, he should do it. 

If it is obvious to you, do you think 29 other GMs aren't going to see it too? Keep McCann and Collins, there is nothing wrong with having depth. Good teams have tons of depth. McCann was valuable last year.. lets keep the best catcher duo together. 

[YouCanPutItOnTheBoardYES!]

Just now, KopechThrowsHeat said:

If it is obvious to you, do you think 29 other GMs aren't going to see it too? Keep McCann and Collins, there is nothing wrong with having depth. Good teams have tons of depth. McCann was valuable last year.. lets keep the best catcher duo together. 

Some teams are absolutely desperate for catching though, so this might be an opportunity for Hahn to get a decent return for a guy who is currently on a 1 year deal. Don’t get me wrong though, I’d rather keep the Grandal/McCann duo and just put Collins in AAA for the time being...but if the Sox wanted to trade either McCann or Collins, I’d pick McCann.

[Dick Allen]

13 minutes ago, KopechThrowsHeat said:

If it is obvious to you, do you think 29 other GMs aren't going to see it too? Keep McCann and Collins, there is nothing wrong with having depth. Good teams have tons of depth. McCann was valuable last year.. lets keep the best catcher duo together. 

There is nothing wrong with depth, but it's a back up catcher. Would you rather have what is perceived to be the stronger of the back up catchers, although steamer has projected them virtually even, or the less of the back up catchers, but a stronger bullpen? Whether anyone wants to admit it or not, money does play a role, and McCann's salary hit can and should be used elsewhere.

[Nokona]

McCann's not going anywhere.  He's Gio's personal catcher and was teammates at Arkansas with Keuchel.  

[thxfrthmmrs]

42 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

But why the heck would Cleveland do that, and with the White Sox?  It has never made any sense at all.  For a divisional rival, they’re going to premium value him like they’re trading two years of Lindor for and asking for Lux, Verdugo and May in return.

Next, there’s never been a tangible link between either Bieber or Clevinger and the White Sox...if it’s going to be anyone, it would be them offloading Carrasco first.

You’re also forgetting the White Sox never trade their first round position prospects until they drive their value into the ground first.   This is not Poreda or Ring, it’s a Golden Spikes winner.

 

 

Why would Cleveland do it? They will take the offer that will give the most value in return. Vaughn is a 60 FV prospect despite his position, worth $55M in prospect valuation. But it would take him plus another couple of top 10 prospects to do it. So it would be either the package I proposed or something else. Also if they fall out of the race by mid season, I would see more motivation to move him than they do right now with Lindor and Clev.

But if you go back to my first post, it was about keep Collins and let him keep improving his hit tool and possibly using Vaughn as trade chip down for pitching the road due to what would then be a surplus at the position. It wasn’t so much about a trade for Clevinger, it could be him or whoever is available. So you can keep twisting it and say there isn’t any rumor out there linking Clev to Sox. It was an idea based on a trade I would do, not something that would happen. I’d like to hear your argument on how we shouldn’t trade Vaughn in a package for a cost controlled TOR SP, but again, you don’t have one.

You could point back to how Sox haven’t traded high first round picks, but using that type of logic to predicted the future also wouldnt have predicted us signing Grandal, offering $250M to Manny and $125M to Wheeler.

[KopechThrowsHeat]

6 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

There is nothing wrong with depth, but it's a back up catcher. Would you rather have what is perceived to be the stronger of the back up catchers, although steamer has projected them virtually even, or the less of the back up catchers, but a stronger bullpen? Whether anyone wants to admit it or not, money does play a role, and McCann's salary hit can and should be used elsewhere.

You can sign someone who is just as good as anyone you would get for McCann or Collins. I wouldn't sell a top prospect catcher who has shown promise or an all star catcher for a rp. Bullpen arms are way too unpredictable.

[tray]

5 minutes ago, Nokona said:

McCann's not going anywhere.  He's Gio's personal catcher and was teammates at Arkansas with Keuchel.  

Nokona for the win.

[Dick Allen]

9 minutes ago, KopechThrowsHeat said:

You can sign someone who is just as good as anyone you would get for McCann or Collins. I wouldn't sell a top prospect catcher who has shown promise or an all star catcher for a rp. Bullpen arms are way too unpredictable.

I wouldn't trade Collins, but I would trade someone who would be overpaid for the role he is playing and only around for one season anyway. 

[Chicago White Sox]

13 minutes ago, Nokona said:

McCann's not going anywhere.  He's Gio's personal catcher and was teammates at Arkansas with Keuchel.  

Ten years ago.  Keuchel is also someone who benefits more from framing than most other pitchers and McCann is a terrible framer.  If Grandal is only going to handle three of our starters then we’re throwing away a ton of value.

[gdane]

What happens to Collins? A .220/.340/.800 split over the next 2 years between the majors/AAA, and then I'll be able to drive down to Rosemont to see him mash for the Chicago Dogs in 2022.

[steveno89]

17 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

I wouldn't trade Collins, but I would trade someone who would be overpaid for the role he is playing and only around for one season anyway. 

I think the Sox will listen on offers for McCann. He's a luxury to have, but is also unlikely to be with the club beyond the 2020 season regardless. By dealing him, Collins would have a pathway to more at bats as the backup catcher/1B/DH/bench bat. 

 

[chw42]

18 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Ten years ago.  Keuchel is also someone who benefits more from framing than most other pitchers and McCann is a terrible framer.  If Grandal is only going to handle three of our starters then we’re throwing away a ton of value.

There really is no reason to ever prefer McCann over Grandal defensively unless McCann is some god at calling games. Grandal's framing benefits everyone on the team.

[SonofaRoache]

37 minutes ago, Nokona said:

McCann's not going anywhere.  He's Gio's personal catcher and was teammates at Arkansas with Keuchel.  

So what happens next year when McCann wants a big contract?

[purpleeyeshadow816]

I don't even know if the potential return for McCann would be worth it . Doubt it would be player of legitimate value . Just keep him and see what happens . Good clubhouse guy .

[Chicago White Sox]

9 minutes ago, chw42 said:

There really is no reason to ever prefer McCann over Grandal defensively unless McCann is some god at calling games. Grandal's framing benefits everyone on the team.

Sure, but guys like Keuchel & Gonzalez who pitch around the edges of the zone are going to benefit more from framing than someone like Giolito who often will challenge hitters with pure stuff.