So What Happens to Zack Collins?

[tray]

Do you really think the 2019 version of James McCann is going to be the one seen in 2020?

Yes I sure do. I watched McCann when he was with Detroit vs the White Sox . After he came to the Sox he made adjustment at the plate which improved his plate coverage and  caused him to hit line drives in the gaps.   McCann was in some respects better than what his numbers indicate.  According to Giolito, McCann spent time researching hitters and developing a game plan before each game.  It showed in games, particularly when Gio (unlike some other pitchers) would locate and execute the pitch that was called for.  Offensively. McCann leveled out his swing and went oppo into the RF gap whenever pitchers tried to get him out on outside pitches. Finally, McCann had several clutch hits that kept us in games and  he won a few of them for us.  Those of us who watched many games last year saw this.

Collins? I saw a game where he was checking into the dugout after EVERY pitch to find out what to call. He looked clueless back there. He can hit some home runs like any big dude  but he didn't hit for average and never did for the most part  in the minors.  He is not athletic in terms of his build and his lack of quickness and speed are things that will never  improve. Please, enough with this guy. He's had his chances. It is time to win now with Grandal and McCann. A fifth year in the minors is not going to help (Collins) and neither would a roster spot on our 26 man roster as a third string catcher.

 

 

Edited December 27, 2019 by tray

[michelangelosmonkey]

3 hours ago, tray said:

 

Collins? I saw a game where he was checking into the dugout after EVERY pitch to find out what to call. He looked clueless back there. He can hit some home runs like any big dude  but he didn't hit for average and never did for the most part  in the minors.  He is not athletic in terms of his build and his lack of quickness and speed are things that will never  improve. Please, enough with this guy. He's had his chances. It is time to win now with Grandal and McCann. A fifth year in the minors is not going to help (Collins) and neither would a roster spot on our 26 man roster as a third string catcher.

 

 

Just so I'm clear...you are giving up on a 24 year old left handed hitting catcher, who hit .282/.403/.538 last year in AAA who Led all of the minor leagues in walks the year before...hit .320 with over 1.000 OPS in 3 years in college and led all college players in walks who has an elite batting eye and plus power...because of 30 bad at bats in June/July?  Because that seems like a stupid opinion.  You also seem to hold it against him that he has a catchers body type?   And think that he's....clueless? Interesting.     

[Quin]

3 hours ago, tray said:

Do you really think the 2019 version of James McCann is going to be the one seen in 2020?

Yes I sure do. I watched McCann when he was with Detroit vs the White Sox . After he came to the Sox he made adjustment at the plate which improved his plate coverage and  caused him to hit line drives in the gaps.   McCann was in some respects better than what his numbers indicate.  According to Giolito, McCann spent time researching hitters and developing a game plan before each game.  It showed in games, particularly when Gio (unlike some other pitchers) would locate and execute the pitch that was called for.  Offensively. McCann leveled out his swing and went oppo into the RF gap whenever pitchers tried to get him out on outside pitches. Finally, McCann had several clutch hits that kept us in games and  he won a few of them for us.  Those of us who watched many games last year saw this.

Collins? I saw a game where he was checking into the dugout after EVERY pitch to find out what to call. He looked clueless back there. He can hit some home runs like any big dude  but he didn't hit for average and never did for the most part  in the minors.  He is not athletic in terms of his build and his lack of quickness and speed are things that will never  improve. Please, enough with this guy. He's had his chances. It is time to win now with Grandal and McCann. A fifth year in the minors is not going to help (Collins) and neither would a roster spot on our 26 man roster as a third string catcher.

 

 

1. Watches James McCann make adjustments after being DFA'd, decides it's not a fluke despite a less than stellar second half.

2. Zack Collins makes adjustments after being demoted, decides it's a fluke despite him tearing the cover off the ball and having a track record of power and an elite batters eye.

You're a bigger piece of work than you think Zack Collins is.

[Moan4Yoan]

Anyone who wants to keep McCann and trade Collins is basically valuing one year of McCann in a backup catcher role over 6 years of control of Collins.

That simply makes no sense to me.  One year of McCann simply isn’t worth giving up on Collins, even at the risk of him being a bust.  Hell, McCann was a bust up until last year.

Edited December 27, 2019 by Moan4Yoan

[michelangelosmonkey]

6 minutes ago, Moan4Yoan said:

Anyone who wants to keep McCann and trade Collins is basically valuing one year of McCann in a backup catcher role over 6 years of control of Collins.

That simply makes no sense to me.  One year of McCann simply isn’t worth giving up on Collins, even at the risk of him being a bust.  Hell, McCann was a bust up until last year.

I'm intrigued by the idea of keeping three catchers with the roster expanding to 26 and letting Collins ease into being a major leaguer.  I'm ok with the idea of them giving Collins another year in AAA to exclusively work on his catching.  I'm horrified at the idea of giving up on someone that has flashed elite offensive skills at a position that its so hard to find.  Ted Simmons was not a great defensive catcher but starting at age 25 put up about 30 WAR in a 6 year stretch.   

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

1 hour ago, Quin said:

1. Watches James McCann make adjustments after being DFA'd, decides it's not a fluke despite a less than stellar second half.

2. Zack Collins makes adjustments after being demoted, decides it's a fluke despite him tearing the cover off the ball and having a track record of power and an elite batters eye.

You're a bigger piece of work than you think Zack Collins is.

The Mighty Quin. You ain't seen nothin' like the Mighty Quin, Manfred Mann song reference not the Denzel Washington movie.

[spiderman]

1 hour ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

I'm intrigued by the idea of keeping three catchers with the roster expanding to 26 and letting Collins ease into being a major leaguer.  I'm ok with the idea of them giving Collins another year in AAA to exclusively work on his catching.  I'm horrified at the idea of giving up on someone that has flashed elite offensive skills at a position that its so hard to find.  Ted Simmons was not a great defensive catcher but starting at age 25 put up about 30 WAR in a 6 year stretch.   

I didn't realize the rosters were expanding to 26 this season. Don't relief pitchers also have to throw to 3 consecutive hitters now also? I haven't thought that new rule through as far as roster flexibility, but would assume less specialists, maybe you don't need more than 12 pitchers??? If it's 14 position players then, 2 backup OF, 2 backup IF's and room for 2 catchers. The obvious issue with Collins will be AB's. Will he play more than 1-2 times a week? 

[Moan4Yoan]

10 minutes ago, spiderman said:

I didn't realize the rosters were expanding to 26 this season. Don't relief pitchers also have to throw to 3 consecutive hitters now also? I haven't thought that new rule through as far as roster flexibility, but would assume less specialists, maybe you don't need more than 12 pitchers??? If it's 14 position players then, 2 backup OF, 2 backup IF's and room for 2 catchers. The obvious issue with Collins will be AB's. Will he play more than 1-2 times a week? 

Correct...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left-handed_specialist

Starting with the 2020 season, all pitchers, whether starters or relievers, will be required to face at least three batters, or pitch to the end of the half-inning in which they enter the game. Exceptions will be allowed only for incapacitating injury or illness while pitching. According to MLB.com journalist Anthony Castrovince, "This will effectively end the so-called LOOGY (left-handed one-out guy) and other specialist roles in which pitchers are brought in for one very specific matchup."

Edited December 27, 2019 by Moan4Yoan

[michelangelosmonkey]

18 minutes ago, spiderman said:

I didn't realize the rosters were expanding to 26 this season. Don't relief pitchers also have to throw to 3 consecutive hitters now also? I haven't thought that new rule through as far as roster flexibility, but would assume less specialists, maybe you don't need more than 12 pitchers??? If it's 14 position players then, 2 backup OF, 2 backup IF's and room for 2 catchers. The obvious issue with Collins will be AB's. Will he play more than 1-2 times a week? 

Collins can back up first base, C and DH...I would have preferred them not sign EE and give Collins lots of AB's but I think they really don't want him to be a DH but their regular catcher by 2022.  Catch 25 games this year, 50 next year and 100 the year after that?  This year, with the added roster space they can have him work every day with Grandal and McCann to learn the art of catching.  

[spiderman]

1 minute ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

Collins can back up first base, C and DH...I would have preferred them not sign EE and give Collins lots of AB's but I think they really don't want him to be a DH but their regular catcher by 2022.  Catch 25 games this year, 50 next year and 100 the year after that?  This year, with the added roster space they can have him work every day with Grandal and McCann to learn the art of catching.  

Not opposed to a plan like that assuming he is able to hit. With these moves, he'll have to earn a roster spot vs. growing into a larger role with opportunity, but that's a great sign of a team ready to compete.

I'm assuming Grandal will catch 4 days a week, McCann 1-2 times and Collins will be sort of a pinch hitter, occasional start at C/1B/DH.

[pcq]

10 hours ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

Collins can back up first base, C and DH...I would have preferred them not sign EE and give Collins lots of AB's but I think they really don't want him to be a DH but their regular catcher by 2022.  Catch 25 games this year, 50 next year and 100 the year after that?  This year, with the added roster space they can have him work every day with Grandal and McCann to learn the art of catching.  

I would prefer a RF over EE37. Mazola will do fine against RHP. 

[Timmy U]

11 hours ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

The Mighty Quin. You ain't seen nothin' like the Mighty Quin, Manfred Mann song reference not the Denzel Washington movie.

You mean the Bob Dylan song, right?

[Dam8610]

On 12/25/2019 at 11:45 PM, caulfield12 said:

When's the last time a Top 3 pick was traded within two years of being drafted?

2015

[tray]

1. Watches James McCann make adjustments after being DFA'd,

decides it's not a fluke despite a less than stellar second half.

What an absurd non-sequitur.

2. Zack Collins makes adjustments after being demoted, decides it's a fluke despite him tearing the cover off the ball and having a track record of power and an elite batters eye.

.186  after 4 years on the minors  Did you happen to read ANY scouting reports or watch Collins catch when he was up with the Sox ?

You're a bigger piece of work than you think Zack Collins is.

That personal attack was mighty lame.  Read any number of scouting reports on Collins dating back to before he was drafted and tell me that the scouts are "pieces of work"  before you go off on another rant or try to flame another poster.

 

[Harold's Leg Lift]

33 minutes ago, Dam8610 said:

2015

and 2012

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

3 hours ago, Timmy U said:

You mean the Bob Dylan song, right?

Yep with Manfred Mann performing it and making it a hit. Quinn the Eskimo .

Edited December 27, 2019 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

[michelangelosmonkey]

1 hour ago, tray said:

1. Watches James McCann make adjustments after being DFA'd,

decides it's not a fluke despite a less than stellar second half.

What an absurd non-sequitur.

2. Zack Collins makes adjustments after being demoted, decides it's a fluke despite him tearing the cover off the ball and having a track record of power and an elite batters eye.

.186  after 4 years on the minors  Did you happen to read ANY scouting reports or watch Collins catch when he was up with the Sox ?

You're a bigger piece of work than you think Zack Collins is.

That personal attack was mighty lame.  Read any number of scouting reports on Collins dating back to before he was drafted and tell me that the scouts are "pieces of work"  before you go off on another rant or try to flame another poster.

 

The personal attacks were really out of line (I mean for humanity...perfectly in line for Soxtalk) but you seem to be confused about Zack Collins.   He's really only had three years in the minors (a couple dozen games after college in 2016).  He's never hit as low as .186 in the minors (if you exclude 11 at bats in rookie league) and if you really want to use batting average as a barometer (because it's his worst stat and the least interesting)...he hit .320 in college...and improved his batting average each of his three years until he hit .360 his junior year in the tough ACC.  His career minor league batting average is .244 but he's improved each of his three season until last year when he batted .282 in AAA.  The scouting reports on Collins in college were that he was the best college bat available, that he has an elite batting eye and plus power, but wasn't a very good defensive catcher and probably wouldn't stick at the position.  I think the two proper schools of thought on Collins are...he's only 24, left handed hitter and if he can learn to be an adequate defender he could be an All-Star catcher, or he could be a very good hitter and play DH or 1B but the White Sox are stacked at those positions so if you could bundle him in a trade for something valuable do it.      

[chitownsportsfan]

How many starts can Rickie give him?  I'm thinking maybe he DHs twice a week and maybe catches once every other week.  That's like 250 PA, which isn't ideal but if 175 of those are against RHP I think he could slash something like 250/340/460 against RHP, which would cement him as at least a big league bat worth carrying.

[ThirdGen]

I believe the choice is between Collins getting lots of at bats and experience behind the plate at AAA (facing weaker pitching that we already know he can hit) or getting very limited and sporadic playing time in Chicago against MLB pitching.   The problem is, if he hits poorly against MLB pitching we will have no idea if that is because he got a limited number of at bats and never found his groove, or if he just can't hit MLB pitching.

In my opinion the lesser of two evils is to give him another year at Charlotte, and assume he replaces McCann in 2021 when his contract expires.  I understand that we won't know if he can hit MLB pitching at that point, but don't think we'll know based on limited MLB playing time in 2020 anyway.

[michelangelosmonkey]

5 minutes ago, chitownsportsfan said:

How many starts can Rickie give him?  I'm thinking maybe he DHs twice a week and maybe catches once every other week.  That's like 250 PA, which isn't ideal but if 175 of those are against RHP I think he could slash something like 250/340/460 against RHP, which would cement him as at least a big league bat worth carrying.

It's why I was disappointed (?) with the EE signing.  I think EE will be solid this year...but I think this should have been the year where the second wave got their shots.  Giving Collins 400 at bats this year felt like we would have learned for sure if his bat can be as good as it has the potential to be at the same time as we are finding out about Madrigal, Robert, Cease and Kopek.  After the EE move I feel like the White Sox must have a plan for Colllins...I think they are buying into the mentoring idea...that Grandal and McCann can both teach him a lot, that there is a ton to learn about how to call a game and they see the Ted Simmons potential in him.   McCann is gone after this season and Colllins is only 24 with 6 years of control.  They can afford to give him 20 starts at catching this year, 50 next year and then 100 the year after that.  Of course the other possibility is they think he's garbage and will try to trade him now to a team that is high on him.    

[Chisox378]

I agree, if he only gets 200 pa then let him play everyday in Charlotte. He can also be ready in case there is an injury.

[chitownsportsfan]

Just now, michelangelosmonkey said:

It's why I was disappointed (?) with the EE signing.  I think EE will be solid this year...but I think this should have been the year where the second wave got their shots.  Giving Collins 400 at bats this year felt like we would have learned for sure if his bat can be as good as it has the potential to be at the same time as we are finding out about Madrigal, Robert, Cease and Kopek.  After the EE move I feel like the White Sox must have a plan for Colllins...I think they are buying into the mentoring idea...that Grandal and McCann can both teach him a lot, that there is a ton to learn about how to call a game and they see the Ted Simmons potential in him.   McCann is gone after this season and Colllins is only 24 with 6 years of control.  They can afford to give him 20 starts at catching this year, 50 next year and then 100 the year after that.  Of course the other possibility is they think he's garbage and will try to trade him now to a team that is high on him.    

All that makes sense but I can't argue against adding EE on a one year deal given what he brings with the bat.  He's a proven 125 wRC+ hitter, Collins COULD be that in a couple years but the Sox made the right call IMO bringing in EE and trying to contend this year.

[Chisox378]

Yes Michaelangelo, I agree, there is also the fact we have these good prospects and now we are not using them even in a back up role. I would have preferred to use Collins this year instead of EE, but it is what it is. Now I'm looking forward to see if EE can do what he did last season, although my prediction is that he will decline. Any injuries we will see Collins up. Maybe they can also give him some reps in right field in AAA.

Edited December 27, 2019 by Chisox378

[chitownsportsfan]

2 minutes ago, Chisox378 said:

Yes Michaelangelo, I agree, there is also the fact we have these good prospects and now we are not using them even in a back up role. I would have preferred to use Collins this year instead of EE, but it is what it is. Now I'm looking forward to see if EE can do what he did last season, although my prediction is that he will decline. Any injuries we will see Collins up. Maybe they can also give him some reps in right field in AAA.

EE is predicted for a 123 wRC+, Collins 96.  That's about a 2-3 WAR difference at DH.  Could be the difference between a wild card birth at 87 wins and going him with 85.  It's no longer possible to give guys like Collins 600 PA to "see what they have".  That's a good thing. 

[michelangelosmonkey]

The problem with EE is it seems like a 2010 White Sox move.  The truth is this year is VERY risky.  Madrigal could bomb.  Robert, Cease, Kopeck could bomb. Giolito could regress, Eloy, Timmy, Moncada. I wrote earlier that to feel like someone is a "sure thing" they need two consecutive years doing it.  So that means they have a dozen question marks already...a dozen super exciting question marks and I feel like Collins is part of that.  I mean it really isn't absurd to think Collins could put up a consistent .250/.375/.500 slash line as a lefty batter that has no position.  What does a year of EE give you?  A two WAR DH for one season for $12 million.  I liked the idea of having all the prospects grow at once...still...catcher is a unique position and I think they may think that the value of forming him into a good hitting catcher dramatically out weighs the value of him being a really good DH and if that takes a year of pinch hitting and sitting at the feet of Socrates, well so be it.