So What Happens to Zack Collins?

[mqr]

Encarnacion is 37, I would bet on Collins getting a good look at some point. 

[NCsoxfan]

I don’t know what the concern is here.  If it were clear that he were a viable full time DH candidate (or at another position) we wouldn’t have had to sign EE. It’s not like as of now he’s a starter on all teams except for the White Sox. He needs to play his way into a starting role whether it’s for the Sox or someone else.

[michelangelosmonkey]

13 minutes ago, NCsoxfan said:

I don’t know what the concern is here.  If it were clear that he were a viable full time DH candidate (or at another position) we wouldn’t have had to sign EE. It’s not like as of now he’s a starter on all teams except for the White Sox. He needs to play his way into a starting role whether it’s for the Sox or someone else.

The concern is last year at this time many on this board would have traded Moncada and Giolito for a box of oranges...you have to take a chance on young players.  Collins had a .950 OPS in AAA last year (Basically what Robert did) and he's a 24 year old lefty with an elite batters eye and power which are skills that should translate to the majors...and instead of being given the job like Robert and Madrigal are we say "nope...too risky...let's sign this 37 year old".  It seems like a weird decision in light of the other decisions...unless...they have already decided he will never be able to catch and never hit as well as Vaughan so are going to trade him or as I mentioned earlier...they see him as their long term catcher and so much of catching is cerebral and they are going to take this year to have him learn how to call a game, frame a pitch and work with young pitchers.    

[NCsoxfan]

3 minutes ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

The concern is last year at this time many on this board would have traded Moncada and Giolito for a box of oranges...you have to take a chance on young players.  Collins had a .950 OPS in AAA last year (Basically what Robert did) and he's a 24 year old lefty with an elite batters eye and power which are skills that should translate to the majors...and instead of being given the job like Robert and Madrigal are we say "nope...too risky...let's sign this 37 year old".  It seems like a weird decision in light of the other decisions...unless...they have already decided he will never be able to catch and never hit as well as Vaughan so are going to trade him or as I mentioned earlier...they see him as their long term catcher and so much of catching is cerebral and they are going to take this year to have him learn how to call a game, frame a pitch and work with young pitchers.    

Ok but you’re neglecting to mention two things both of which are obvious. First the EE deal is 1yr. Second, Collins wasn’t very impressive last season in the big leagues. I know he’s young and it’s beyond premature but all the more reason we don’t need to rush him yet. No reason we can’t build depth and make Collins earn his position.

[pcq]

56 minutes ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

It's why I was disappointed (?) with the EE signing.  I think EE will be solid this year...but I think this should have been the year where the second wave got their shots.  Giving Collins 400 at bats this year felt like we would have learned for sure if his bat can be as good as it has the potential to be at the same time as we are finding out about Madrigal, Robert, Cease and Kopek.  After the EE move I feel like the White Sox must have a plan for Colllins...I think they are buying into the mentoring idea...that Grandal and McCann can both teach him a lot, that there is a ton to learn about how to call a game and they see the Ted Simmons potential in him.   McCann is gone after this season and Colllins is only 24 with 6 years of control.  They can afford to give him 20 starts at catching this year, 50 next year and then 100 the year after that.  Of course the other possibility is they think he's garbage and will try to trade him now to a team that is high on him.    

Unless they are having a spring overstock sale on DH players. We have many contenders. I do not see them trading Zack's service time away.

[michelangelosmonkey]

8 minutes ago, NCsoxfan said:

Ok but you’re neglecting to mention two things both of which are obvious. First the EE deal is 1yr. Second, Collins wasn’t very impressive last season in the big leagues. I know he’s young and it’s beyond premature but all the more reason we don’t need to rush him yet. No reason we can’t build depth and make Collins earn his position.

In his first 30 major league at bats he had a .400 OPS. In his next 30 he had an ops of .600 and in the final 30 he had an ops of .930.  To say that he was learning and by the end was great is as absurd as saying he wasn't impressive.  He was great in college, he was great in AAA last year and he has the sort of hitting skills that should translate.  As for EE only being a one year deal...that was the point.  Why put this potentially dynamic hitter on ice for a year so you can try to eke out another 2 WAR from a 37 year old DH?   The catcher training thing makes sense...the trade makes sense...nothing else does.  

[mqr]

5 minutes ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

 Why put this potentially dynamic hitter on ice for a year so you can try to eke out another 2 WAR from a 37 year old DH? 

Because the front office is ready to raise their floor. 2020 is a go year. 

Edited December 27, 2019 by mqr

[chitownsportsfan]

3 minutes ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

In his first 30 major league at bats he had a .400 OPS. In his next 30 he had an ops of .600 and in the final 30 he had an ops of .930.  To say that he was learning and by the end was great is as absurd as saying he wasn't impressive.  He was great in college, he was great in AAA last year and he has the sort of hitting skills that should translate.  As for EE only being a one year deal...that was the point.  Why put this potentially dynamic hitter on ice for a year so you can try to eke out another 2 WAR from a 37 year old DH?   The catcher training thing makes sense...the trade makes sense...nothing else does.  

I already explained why but you didn't read.  Edwin is projected for about 2.5 fWAR.  Collins for about .5  In a year they are obviously trying to contend you can't trot out a replacement level DH in hopes that he has a breakthrough.  

Collins will get his chance.  Jose/Eloy/EE will probably miss around 60 games between the three of them.  They are building depth on the MLB roster.  This is what that looks like.  I know, it's been a long ass time since we saw what that looks like.

[Dick Allen]

Collins has been training with Grandal since he was in high school. 

[Moan4Yoan]

1 minute ago, Dick Allen said:

Collins has been training with Grandal since he was in high school. 

But McCann caught Keuchel in college which cancels that out.

[michelangelosmonkey]

11 minutes ago, chitownsportsfan said:

I already explained why but you didn't read.  Edwin is projected for about 2.5 fWAR.  Collins for about .5  In a year they are obviously trying to contend you can't trot out a replacement level DH in hopes that he has a breakthrough.  

Collins will get his chance.  Jose/Eloy/EE will probably miss around 60 games between the three of them.  They are building depth on the MLB roster.  This is what that looks like.  I know, it's been a long ass time since we saw what that looks like.

I did read.  The problem is with projections.  What were the combined WAR projections for Giolito and Moncada last year (pretty sure it wasn't +10)?   What was Yonder's projected WAR last year at this time(pretty sure it wasn't -1)?  Sometimes old gets old real fast and some times young and super talented breaks out and pushes you to a new level. If you told me that in 2020 one of Collins/EE had a 4 WAR...I would bet a million dollars it wasn't EE.  I like the lane the White Sox chose of gambling on young talent...raising the floor by signing 37 year olds and sitting young potential stars because of projections seems like the old bad plan.    

[michelangelosmonkey]

4 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

Collins has been training with Grandal since he was in high school. 

This falls into my theory that 2020 is going to be all about teaching Collins the art of catching.  I really believe this is the truth...they are confident he will hit so don't really need him to spend time on that...and spending a year tutoring under McCann and Grandal and the major league coaches and drinking and eating catching every day is what I would do with Collins.  

[BackDoorBreach]

Projections for non established players is goofy to go by.

 

[tray]

You can't teach quickness and athleticism.

[NCsoxfan]

1 hour ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

In his first 30 major league at bats he had a .400 OPS. In his next 30 he had an ops of .600 and in the final 30 he had an ops of .930.  To say that he was learning and by the end was great is as absurd as saying he wasn't impressive.  He was great in college, he was great in AAA last year and he has the sort of hitting skills that should translate.  As for EE only being a one year deal...that was the point.  Why put this potentially dynamic hitter on ice for a year so you can try to eke out another 2 WAR from a 37 year old DH?   The catcher training thing makes sense...the trade makes sense...nothing else does.  

“Dynamic hitter on ice for a year”. Do you fear he will self destruct if he has to be in Charlotte for a year? With respect to his first 102 plate appearances in the big leagues, you can debate whether there’s any signal or not, and whether the Sox weighed that when deciding to sign EE and that’s fine.

It’s just my opinion you’re overplaying both his projection and the risk of him sitting another year in the minors. I’d love for him to mash in ‘21 for us AND the Sox get the benefit of a great year of EE. Win/win!

[Thomas_Ventura_Roberts]

They might trade him before the year begins.  If they don't, they can let him learn as the 3rd catcher; but more likely, they send him down to AAA and renew trade talks for him as he gets some more experience down there. The Sox have leveled with him that he still needs to develop his game calling and defensive skills; therefore, spending a few more months in the minors will not harm his psyche.   In short, though, the Sox probably are entertaining offers for that that include packaging him and another player or two in a big trade.  I think the Sox are high on Collins but feel the necessity to make the first priority developing the young pitchers who are here or coming and thus know trading him becomes part of the puzzle.

[zisk]

I hope they don't trade him. Collins has a great eye at the plate and big power. As a third catcher he will likely get a chance due to injury, and the 26th roster spot makes it much easier to keep him at The MLB level. Left handed power bats can have a real impact if given the opportunity.

[BackDoorBreach]

1 hour ago, chitownsportsfan said:

I already explained why but you didn't read.  Edwin is projected for about 2.5 fWAR.  Collins for about .5  In a year they are obviously trying to contend you can't trot out a replacement level DH in hopes that he has a breakthrough.  

Collins will get his chance.  Jose/Eloy/EE will probably miss around 60 games between the three of them.  They are building depth on the MLB roster.  This is what that looks like.  I know, it's been a long ass time since we saw what that looks like.

See, but this is exactly what they are doing with RF.  It would have made more sense to sign a RF and shuffle the DH spot imo. 

[Chicago White Sox]

1 hour ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

I did read.  The problem is with projections.  What were the combined WAR projections for Giolito and Moncada last year (pretty sure it wasn't +10)?   What was Yonder's projected WAR last year at this time(pretty sure it wasn't -1)?  Sometimes old gets old real fast and some times young and super talented breaks out and pushes you to a new level. If you told me that in 2020 one of Collins/EE had a 4 WAR...I would bet a million dollars it wasn't EE.  I like the lane the White Sox chose of gambling on young talent...raising the floor by signing 37 year olds and sitting young potential stars because of projections seems like the old bad plan.    

The problem you are missing is Moncada & Giolito are in a different stratosphere when it comes to talent.  Moncada was a #1 overall prospect in baseball and pretty sure Giolito was the top pitching in the game at one point.  Collins has some interesting skills including elite plate discipline and plus raw power, but he has always had legit swing & miss issues.  Without massive improvements in his bat to ball skills, he will always be limited offensively.  And candidly speaking, it’s way too early to say that changes he made last year are going to stick with any level of certainty.

I really like Zack as a prospect but calling him a potential star is pretty ridiculous at this point.  And how in the world do you think a guy coming with neutral to negative defensive value and who can’t hit LHP would put up a 4 win season in his first full season whereas the guy who was on pace for 3.7 wins per 162 games would have no chance in hell of getting there?  It really seems you are taking his numbers from last year, ignoring the juiced ball & field in which he played at, and just projecting that forward.  He is simply not the caliber of prospect you think he is and that’s backed up with zero publications currently ranking him a top 100 guy.  I do hope Collins gets a shot at some point, but signing EE was the right move for 2020.

[michelangelosmonkey]

28 minutes ago, BackDoorBreach said:

See, but this is exactly what they are doing with RF.  It would have made more sense to sign a RF and shuffle the DH spot imo. 

And CF...and 2B...and a couple of the starting pitchers.  They are making calculated gambles that the young guys will become stars.  Even Mazara is an upside gamble that I love.  But with Collins they didn't roll the dice (at DH not at catcher as I completely agree with the idea of having experienced catcher with the young pitching staff).  So if one is reading the tea leaves...seems either they will make a trade with him as the centerpiece...or they will develop him to be their catcher of the future. As for the AAA talk...if the goal is to make him an MLB catcher I think sitting and learning with constant coaching and tutelage is better than repetition at a level he's mastered (hitting wise).  

[chitownsportsfan]

4 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

The problem you are missing is Moncada & Giolito are in a different stratosphere when it comes to talent.  Moncada was a #1 overall prospect in baseball and pretty sure Giolito was the top pitching in the game at one point.  Collins has some interesting skills including elite plate discipline and plus raw power, but he has always had legit swing & miss issues.  Without massive improvements in his bat to ball skills, he will always be limited offensively.  And candidly speaking, it’s way too early to say that changes he made last year are going to stick with any level of certainty.

I really like Zack as a prospect but calling him a potential star is pretty ridiculous at this point.  And how in the world do you think a guy coming with neutral to negative defensive value and who can’t hit LHP would put up a 4 win season in his first full season whereas the guy who was on pace for 3.7 wins per 162 games would have no chance in hell of getting there?  It really seems you are taking his numbers from last year, ignoring the juiced ball & field in which he played at, and just projecting that forward.  He is simply not the caliber of prospect you think he is and that’s backed up with zero publications currently ranking him a top 100 guy.  I do hope Collins gets a shot at some point, but signing EE was the right move for 2020.

I like Collins, I think his bat will play, even if he's just a backup 1B/DH long term.  But yea.  He doesn't bring anything defensively.  It's hard to project him as anything but a poor man's schwarber.  usefullplayer on a cheap deal sure, but hardly worth too much fuss when they just signed EE.

As for the "inconsistency" of bringing in Mazara also hoping for a breakout: they needed a warm body for RF.  They already had a bunch at DH/1B/C.  I'm not sure it's a great move, probably mildly bad over the multitude of outcomes but they had a hole to fill.  How well they filled it remains to be seen.

[Chicago White Sox]

1 minute ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

And CF...and 2B...and a couple of the starting pitchers.  They are making calculated gambles that the young guys will become stars.  Even Mazara is an upside gamble that I love.  But with Collins they didn't roll the dice (at DH not at catcher as I completely agree with the idea of having experienced catcher with the young pitching staff).  So if one is reading the tea leaves...seems either they will make a trade with him as the centerpiece...or they will develop him to be their catcher of the future. As for the AAA talk...if the goal is to make him an MLB catcher I think sitting and learning with constant coaching and tutelage is better than repetition at a level he's mastered (hitting wise).  

You do realize that Robert is a top 5 prospect, Madrigal a top 40 prospect, Kopech a former top 20 prospect, and Cease a former top 40 prospect.  Collins is a guy most scouts and most prospect publications are skeptical of.  Right now they see him as a platoon DH and those guys aren’t overly valuable.  He could be the centerpiece for a trade for a reliever or a secondary piece for something better, but he simply doesn’t have a ton of standalone value at the moment.

As for being a major league catcher, the kid needs repetition if he’s ever going to improve.  Sitting behind both Grandal & McCann would be completely idiotic for his development.  Either trade McCann and make him the primary backup or send him to AAA and get him as many starts behind the plate as possible.

[michelangelosmonkey]

7 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

The problem you are missing is Moncada & Giolito are in a different stratosphere when it comes to talent.  Moncada was a #1 overall prospect in baseball and pretty sure Giolito was the top pitching in the game at one point.  Collins has some interesting skills including elite plate discipline and plus raw power, but he has always had legit swing & miss issues.  Without massive improvements in his bat to ball skills, he will always be limited offensively.  And candidly speaking, it’s way too early to say that changes he made last year are going to stick with any level of certainty.

I really like Zack as a prospect but calling him a potential star is pretty ridiculous at this point.  And how in the world do you think a guy coming with neutral to negative defensive value and who can’t hit LHP would put up a 4 win season in his first full season whereas the guy who was on pace for 3.7 wins per 162 games would have no chance in hell of getting there?  It really seems you are taking his numbers from last year, ignoring the juiced ball & field in which he played at, and just projecting that forward.  He is simply not the caliber of prospect you think he is and that’s backed up with zero publications currently ranking him a top 100 guy.  I do hope Collins gets a shot at some point, but signing EE was the right move for 2020.

I don't think he's the caliber of prospect you think he is.  A juiced ball doesn't help his batting average...and he hit .285 in AAA...that is the one skill everyone says he lacks offensively.  And everything else at every level has been great.  I never said Collins was going to be a 6 WAR player...but it's not impossible (again Ted Simmons).  What we know for sure is Collins was a top 10 pick in the draft, led all of college in walks, led all the minor leagues in walks and he's 24 and a lefty and catches.   We know that a keen batting eye translates positively, eventually, in the majors and power translates.   You state EE was "on pace"...well there was a reason he didn't play 162 games...old gets hurt...old declines.  Remember Seattle traded him to the Yankees for a bucket of balls and the Yankees let him walk this off season over money.   I'm not going to shoot myself over the EE signing.  I just find it curious given their other moves.  To me it is as if Dane Dunning hadn't gotten hurt last year and had a stellar year in AAA and then we signed Gio Gonzalez as our fifth starter instead of risking DD starting because we are in our window.   

[fathom]

6 minutes ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

I don't think he's the caliber of prospect you think he is.  A juiced ball doesn't help his batting average...and he hit .285 in AAA...that is the one skill everyone says he lacks offensively.  And everything else at every level has been great.  I never said Collins was going to be a 6 WAR player...but it's not impossible (again Ted Simmons).  What we know for sure is Collins was a top 10 pick in the draft, led all of college in walks, led all the minor leagues in walks and he's 24 and a lefty and catches.   We know that a keen batting eye translates positively, eventually, in the majors and power translates.   You state EE was "on pace"...well there was a reason he didn't play 162 games...old gets hurt...old declines.  Remember Seattle traded him to the Yankees for a bucket of balls and the Yankees let him walk this off season over money.   I'm not going to shoot myself over the EE signing.  I just find it curious given their other moves.  To me it is as if Dane Dunning hadn't gotten hurt last year and had a stellar year in AAA and then we signed Gio Gonzalez as our fifth starter instead of risking DD starting because we are in our window.   

And yet, they signed EE to be DH and Collins has no role. Maybe it’s as simple as the Sox don’t think his approach/swing will work at this level.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

7 minutes ago, fathom said:

And yet, they signed EE to be DH and Collins has no role. Maybe it’s as simple as the Sox don’t think his approach/swing will work at this level.

I don't think that's it. Collins has done everything the Sox have asked and he will continue to do so. I think they like him  and he could not have done any better than he did when they sent him back down for July and August. He literally was hitting like his hair was on fire . Just wildly good numbers. I was like @michelangelosmonkey. I preferred a Collins/McCann etc DH platoon over buying a DH. I'm good with EE because he is a very consistent power hitter. Age is of course a worry but he's still putting up impressive stats.

Everyone in the majors and AAA hit with a juiced ball so no reason to downgrade Collins for that. If he was a sure thing as a catcher this is not even a debate but he's not . That's the reason for buying a DH for just year+ team option. Robert , Madrigal, Kopech Cease they all have to play. There are not other viable options because after all playing the youngsters  is what this is all about Some fit in right away others have to wait, I can understand questioning his defensive abilities but  he's done everything the Sox wanted him to and passed with flying colors at least in July and August . He can further help himself by being a good solider and proving those 2 months can be a bit longer lasting and when opportunity knocks again kick the damn door down.