Hahn is getting all the praise, Theo no longer "Sainted"

[NCsoxfan]

Theo has a World Series and how many playoff appearances? What does Hahn have since he started? A .450 winning percentage, no playoff appearances, and two offseason free agency championships? 
 

Maybe the next five years will include a ton of success, but there’s really no reason for any praise for Hahn until the White Sox have some semblance of success on the field. Until then, the numbers are what they are. 

[Moan4Yoan]

3 hours ago, ptatc said:

No doubt. However, there are other reasons as well. Maybe a player tweaked a hamstring. Not bad enough to go on the injured list but enough that he wont play for a day or two. They dont want to go off the other team so they dont make it public. 

There are many reasons why they make moves deeper than the numbers that fans wont understand.

But this isn’t really the argument.  You asked what “Maddon” was available for the Sox to replace Renteria with like the Cubs did when they upgraded from him.  I gave you two better options — Maddon himself who you are not a fan of and Girardi who you admitted would be an improvement.

Now we are having a runaround discussion defending Renteria by saying that managers don’t impact wins and losses that much, that fans don’t know the inside clubhouse reasons for each move a manager makes (i.e. injuries), and that managers have to also consider players’ egos when making decisions.  All managers have to deal with these issues, not just Renteria.

All of these factors are true but the simple truth is that Renteria is definitely near the bottom of the list as far as good MLB managers goes and there were at least two better options that the Sox could have replaced him with, this offseason alone.

Edited January 8, 2020 by Moan4Yoan

[tray]

On 1/6/2020 at 12:47 AM, chitownsportsfan said:

I wouldn't be so quick to praise Hahn or discredit Theo.  Theo won a title, and seemingly is operating under similar restrictions to Hahn, despite an annual revenue roughly 20-40% larger.

Theo would probably like the Chapman trade back.  But flags fly forever and when dealing with ownership that has profit somewhere around the same as winning it's not that easy.

Cubs (and Epstein)  were lucky to win one by the skin of their teeth in the 10th inning of Game 7 or they would still be looking for one and answering to the  b1tchiest little fans in the game.

Edited January 8, 2020 by tray

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

23 minutes ago, Moan4Yoan said:

But this isn’t really the argument.  You asked what “Maddon” was available for the Sox to replace Renteria with like the Cubs did when they upgraded from him.  I gave you two better options — Maddon himself who you are not a fan of and Girardi who you admitted would be an improvement.

Now we are having a runaround discussion defending Renteria by saying that managers don’t impact wins and losses that much, that fans don’t know the inside clubhouse reasons for each move a manager makes (i.e. injuries), and that managers have to also consider players’ egos when making decisions.  All managers have to deal with these issues, not just Renteria.

All of these factors are true but the simple truth is that Renteria is definitely near the bottom of the list as far as good MLB managers goes and there were at least two better options that the Sox could have replaced him with, this offseason alone.

The knock on Girardi in NY was that he didn't care enough about the Metrics but was a great players coach.

It's the same exact knock that's on renteria.

I also have no idea how you determine a good manager from a bad manager rankings wise. You can say renteria is at the bottom but it doesnt make it true.

AJ Hinch was practically chased out of Arizona - said to be in way over his head and, at the time, was the "worst manager in baseball." Now he's regarded positively. 

Edited January 8, 2020 by Look at Ray Ray Run

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

To further that a bit @Moan4Yoan many cite Francona as a great manager. In the process they ridicule and attack renteria - stating the primary reason hes terrible is the sac bunting... renteria and Francona were first and second in sac bunts by a lot (29,26).

[ptatc]

1 hour ago, Moan4Yoan said:

But this isn’t really the argument.  You asked what “Maddon” was available for the Sox to replace Renteria with like the Cubs did when they upgraded from him.  I gave you two better options — Maddon himself who you are not a fan of and Girardi who you admitted would be an improvement.

Now we are having a runaround discussion defending Renteria by saying that managers don’t impact wins and losses that much, that fans don’t know the inside clubhouse reasons for each move a manager makes (i.e. injuries), and that managers have to also consider players’ egos when making decisions.  All managers have to deal with these issues, not just Renteria.

All of these factors are true but the simple truth is that Renteria is definitely near the bottom of the list as far as good MLB managers goes and there were at least two better options that the Sox could have replaced him with, this offseason alone.

How did you determine that Renteria is near the bottom of the list of managers?

I still dont agree that there were better ones out there. Not Maddon for the reasons I gave. I said maybe Girardi, I would need to think more about it.

[mqr]

Does a manager:

a. Handle the media well?

b. Prevent a clubhouse from imploding?

if the answer to these questions are yes, then the manager is not an issue. 

[Moan4Yoan]

1 minute ago, mqr said:

Does a manager:

a. Handle the media well?

b. Prevent a clubhouse from imploding?

if the answer to these questions are yes, then the manager is not an issue. 

In-game management means nothing?  Wow.

[Ducksnort]

4 minutes ago, Moan4Yoan said:

In-game management means nothing?  Wow.

My primary qualms with Ricky last year was the lineup construction. I really didn't have a problem with the bunting, MOST of the time. Sometimes it was like, really wtf are you doing, but mostly it didn't  bother me. For all the things to dislike about a manager, it could be a lot worse. Let's not cast stones and wait to see how he handles a talented contending team.

[ptatc]

13 minutes ago, Moan4Yoan said:

In-game management means nothing?  Wow.

Not much. That is way down the priority list.

[NWINFan]

2 hours ago, NCsoxfan said:

Theo has a World Series and how many playoff appearances? What does Hahn have since he started? A .450 winning percentage, no playoff appearances, and two offseason free agency championships? 
 

Maybe the next five years will include a ton of success, but there’s really no reason for any praise for Hahn until the White Sox have some semblance of success on the field. Until then, the numbers are what they are. 

I agree with this in part. The White Sox have won nothing since 2008. But even a cynic like me sees the rebuild has started to work.

As I have said on other posts, one or two good seasons is not the key here. The success of this rebuild will be gauged on the overall performance of the team in this decade. It is time turn this franchise around in a major way. If Hahn does that, he will deserve any praise he gets. 

[NCsoxfan]

9 minutes ago, NWINFan said:

I agree with this in part. The White Sox have won nothing since 2008. But even a cynic like me sees the rebuild has started to work.

As I have said on other posts, one or two good seasons is not the key here. The success of this rebuild will be gauged on the overall performance of the team in this decade. It is time turn this franchise around in a major way. If Hahn does that, he will deserve any praise he gets. 

I’m even willing to give him the credit for one or two good seasons considering we’ve had nothing. My bar is definitely not sustained success, but we until we have at least one goos season he deserves heavy scrutiny.  

[poppysox]

24 minutes ago, mqr said:

Does a manager:

a. Handle the media well?

b. Prevent a clubhouse from imploding?

if the answer to these questions are yes, then the manager is not an issue. 

I'm not nuts about RR's bunting escapades and lineup ideas but today is a new day with a whole different arsenal of weapons.  RR has been around professional baseball for 40 years.  Do we really think we know so much more than he does about the game.  I think Ricky may be a pleasant surprise when managing a good team.

[Jerksticks]

2 hours ago, Moan4Yoan said:

But this isn’t really the argument.  You asked what “Maddon” was available for the Sox to replace Renteria with like the Cubs did when they upgraded from him.  I gave you two better options — Maddon himself who you are not a fan of and Girardi who you admitted would be an improvement.

Now we are having a runaround discussion defending Renteria by saying that managers don’t impact wins and losses that much, that fans don’t know the inside clubhouse reasons for each move a manager makes (i.e. injuries), and that managers have to also consider players’ egos when making decisions.  All managers have to deal with these issues, not just Renteria.

All of these factors are true but the simple truth is that Renteria is definitely near the bottom of the list as far as good MLB managers goes and there were at least two better options that the Sox could have replaced him with, this offseason alone.

If Rentería leads them to the playoffs this year will you STFU about Rentaria?

if he wins some titles will you STFU? 
 

where have you set the bar moving forward?

[caulfield12]

4 hours ago, poppysox said:

Baloney!

Well, sure, you have two different versions.  The first three years of his career, 7ish fWAR average...and then the last two, attempting to factor in exactly what player he is today and how he projects going forward (especially if they go back to the regular baseballs.)   So much of his value comes from hitting for power, and that has definitely been diminished since the injury.

[Moan4Yoan]

12 minutes ago, Jerksticks said:

If Rentería leads them to the playoffs this year will you STFU about Rentaria?

if he wins some titles will you STFU? 
 

where have you set the bar moving forward?

You act like I’m the only one who thinks Renteria is a poor manager.  Many of his moves were shredded on a game-to-game basis on this very site last season.  He made questionable moves on a very frequent basis.

Regardless of my opinion or anyone else’s, Renteria led the 2014 Cubs to 73 wins and Theo decided to move on from him.  Renteria’s replacement went on to win 97 games in 2015 and then 103 games and the World Series in 2016.  But I guess that could all be a coincidence.  Meanwhile, only the Sox were interested in Renteria as a manager after two season without a job after the Cubs canned him, most likely because he was cheap.  Another coincidence I guess?

To me, the bar is making the playoffs this year.  I would suspect that is Hahn’s bar as well for 2020.

Edited January 9, 2020 by Moan4Yoan

[caulfield12]

Holding it against Maddon for not winning the World Series with the Rays is really pushing it...it's like blaming Francona for not getting the Indians over the hump in 2016.

I'm sure they each (still) have their fair share of critics...so it's back to the tired 'ol truism, how many offers would Renteria have from other organizations if they let him go today?

I'm sure many teams would put him in a "Buddy Bell-esque" position and hope to leverage his Latin American connections or have him work with the minor leaguers as a roving instructor or Director of Instruction, but can't believe there would be too many managerial spots that he would be considered for.

[South Side Fireworks Man]

2 hours ago, Moan4Yoan said:

Now we are having a runaround discussion defending Renteria by saying that managers don’t impact wins and losses that much, that fans don’t know the inside clubhouse reasons for each move a manager makes (i.e. injuries), and that managers have to also consider players’ egos when making decisions.  All managers have to deal with these issues, not just Renteria.

All of these factors are true but the simple truth is that Renteria is definitely near the bottom of the list as far as good MLB managers goes and there were at least two better options that the Sox could have replaced him with, this offseason alone.

I can accept that maybe for the most part in-game strategy decisions don't ordinarily amount to more than maybe a difference of a couple of games in the Win/Loss column. 

But extremely poor decisions like repeatedly batting your worst hitter fourth or constantly having your better hitters sacrifice bunt, etc., can make the difference between a contender and an also ran.

Also, a good manager vs. A poor manager can be a critical difference in a playoff game.

[South Side Fireworks Man]

43 minutes ago, poppysox said:

I'm not nuts about RR's bunting escapades and lineup ideas but today is a new day with a whole different arsenal of weapons.  RR has been around professional baseball for 40 years.  Do we really think we know so much more than he does about the game.  I think Ricky may be a pleasant surprise when managing a good team.

That's what we all hope. 

[wegner]

11 minutes ago, South Side Fireworks Man said:

I can accept that maybe for the most part in-game strategy decisions don't ordinarily amount to more than maybe a difference of a couple of games in the Win/Loss column. 

But extremely poor decisions like repeatedly batting your worst hitter fourth or constantly having your better hitters sacrifice bunt, etc., can make the difference between a contender and an also ran.

Also, a good manager vs. A poor manager can be a critical difference in a playoff game.

I don't disagree with your points but then I have to remind myself that a Ned Yost managed team won a World Series.

[mqr]

9 minutes ago, wegner said:

I don't disagree with your points but then I have to remind myself that a Ned Yost managed team won a World Series.

Probably a less talented one at that. 

Edited January 9, 2020 by mqr

[FloydBannister1983]

3 hours ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

To further that a bit @Moan4Yoan many cite Francona as a great manager. In the process they ridicule and attack renteria - stating the primary reason hes terrible is the sac bunting... renteria and Francona were first and second in sac bunts by a lot (29,26).

Wow - Renteria is now Girardi, Hinch, and Francona all rolled into one.  How did the Sox get so lucky?

[caulfield12]

34 minutes ago, wegner said:

I don't disagree with your points but then I have to remind myself that a Ned Yost managed team won a World Series.

That team really didn't even a need a manager, they just needed someone to get out of the way.

In a lot of ways, Sal Perez, Gordon and Hosmer were like managers on the field.

Bringing in pinch runners late in games, going to a consistent set of bullpen moves in a very predictable pattern, Herrera to Davis to Holland, everything started to fall apart when their dominating bullpen was no more.

Edited January 9, 2020 by caulfield12

[BamaDoc]

I would say setting the tone for the team which to me includes managing the clubhouse egos and drama is job one. 
 

The second biggest job to me is the handling of the pitching staff and especially the bullpen.  I think he has been decent here and concede we don’t have all the information on players health that he does and may not divulge. I also can’t for sure say how much of bullpening is actually done by Cooper. 

[caulfield12]

30 minutes ago, mqr said:

Probably a less talented one at that. 

Like the 2005 White Sox, a great team but not necessarily from a Hall of Fame perspective.

I can't even think of many guys who will get more than a handful of votes.   When all is said and done, it might be Sal Perez who gets the most HofF votes if he can resurrect his career after the surgery (over Moustakas, Cain and Hosmer).  There are just so few candidates now from the catcher's spot.   I would have said Johnny Cueto, but he's fading too.   Wade Davis and Holland will get a few votes, I guess.

 

The one thing Yost did was develop that identity.  Moving the line one hit or sacrifice at a time, fundamentals, situational hitting, making contact with the ball whenever possible, fundamental defense, dominant bullpen, decent starters...running at all times and pushing the envelope in the late innings with Cain, Escobar, Dyson and Gore.

Edited January 9, 2020 by caulfield12